[Traditional Enneagram] Which type is this characteristic of?

[fetus]

I am trying to type somebody in my life who was extremely unhealthy. Because Enneagram deals a lot with dysfunction, I was wondering if you could help me find her type--core or tri.

Well, it seemed like she was always looking for things to get upset over. When something minor happened, she would tease her sadness until the issue became insurmountable. It seemed like she put herself in painful situations or sabotaged herself so she could get comfort and pity. One time she confided in me that she felt like she almost liked going through tough times so she could have an interesting life story, and to feel like she overcame something and came out stronger. When she was us, she was preoccupied with abandonment. All the time she felt like we were going to leave her, that she was our second choice, that we didn't like her, that everyone was out to get her, that we would replace her with someone better. It was like paranoia; if she was sitting on the end, she thought it was because we hated her. She constantly made everything about her--if we were ever laughing and joking around with someone else, she would freak out and think she was being replaced. So she became super clingy and constantly dumped her problems on us. Like, she never asked us how we were doing; she just started talking about her pain. She never once screamed at us, but she would become super passive-aggressive--like subtweeting, silent treatment, or purposely having a "dramatically good time" with someone else in front of us to make us feel bad or to communicate her feelings. She was passive-aggressive about a lot of things, like she didn't come up to us and say she was upset--she would go off by herself and start crying until we noticed her, act hurt until we asked if she was okay, or posted concerning things on the internet in hopes that we would be concerned and ask her about it. This was the only way she expressed that she was mad at us. If we told her she'd hurt our feelings, she would be vicious to herself and spiral into suicidal ideation. I feel like she did a lot of self-hatred to get our attention and sympathy to validate that we cared and wouldn't leave her, but I know she actually hated herself a whole lot too--we constantly had to tell her that she was not a bad person. I think she had a lot more hatred for herself than anyone else. Whenever she messed up at all, even on something really minor, she would tell herself that she deserved to die.

I grew very weary of her constant emotional turmoil. After months of this, she finally sought professional therapy.

Does any of her behavior indicate any specific type, or is this too unhealthy to be typed at all?

 

[HongDou]

This is (somewhat) uncomfortably familiar.

She sounds really unhealthy so it's hard, but I'd say she could be along the 6/7 spectrum - leaning towards 6w7. Maybe 2-fixed too. When I was younger I'd have outbursts like this and worry if my friends felt as close to me as I did to them, but like I said they were only outbursts. For her it seems like she's constantly steamrolling you guys with negativity. Less 7 superficiality and more 6 depth of feeling.

 

[á´…eparted]

I don't really see her being a 6. Sure, she has the abandoment fixation (which is a 6 hallmark) but I don't really see the pervasive paranoia of everyone is out to get her. She seems to be (maladatively) doing something about it, which 6's generally don't.

I am leaning to 4w3, maybe 7w6. The reason I say 4 is I see a strong dissolution to 2 going on here. I see a bit of 7 going to 1, and with more information that might be clear. The self-critical nature is leaking as it does when a 7 goes south, but it's heavily focused on others and the reciprocity of that, that leads me to suspect 4.

 

[HongDou]

I don't really see her being a 6. Sure, she has the abandoment fixation (which is a 6 hallmark) but I don't really see the pervasive paranoia of everyone is out to get her.

I don't think she directly expresses it, but I think the paranoia of everyone being out to get her could manifest in different ways. Like, the fear of your friends intentionally trying to replace you.

She seems to be (maladatively) doing something about it, which 6's generally don't.

I think 6s fear inaction more than they do action though (if I'm reading what you're getting at correctly). That's part of the challenge of a 6 integrating to their 9 soul child:

Within every Six is lazy little one - very Nine-ish - who just wants to stay under the covers, doesn't want to go out and face the world, wants only to be comfortable and entertained. Because of this, Sixes are often afraid that if they relax into themselves, they will become inert, never moving or bestirring themselves again; and they fear that they will neglect what they need to in their lives. This is, of course, because hidden from consciousness is this young part that does not want to do anything at all except luxuriate in leisures and distractions. This inner indolence is really the heart of a Six's fear - she is perhaps more afraid of this tendency in herself than of anything else, fearing that if she stops pushing herself with her false will, all will be lost and she will sink into a swamp of laziness. If she is not making efforts, she is afraid that nothing will happen and that her life will go down the tubes.

When a Six courageously allows herself to stop striving and lets herself be, she may initially experience an immobility or lack of desire to do anything at all. In time, the inertia and indolence of her soul child will transform into what it is replicating; the loving holding of Being, a sense of being held in embrace of the Divine, knowing herself to be made up of love and one with all of existence. The sweetness and benevolence of the universe - the dimension of Living Daylight - will become part of her sense of self, and the fear in her soul will gradually subside as she realizes more and more completely her inextrivcable connection to Being. Eventually the whole mind-set of being frightened of others will diseappear as she recognizes that her nature is the same as all that exist, and that all sense of self and other is illusory. Without Being as her inner ground and her perception of its continuity in all outer forms, she has indeed found the rock she can truly stand on.

I am leaning to 4w3, maybe 7w6. The reason I say 4 is I see a strong dissolution to 2 going on here. I see a bit of 7 going to 1, and with more information that might be clear. The self-critical nature is leaking as it does when a 7 goes south, but it's heavily focused on others and the reciprocity of that, that leads me to suspect 4.

I see we both picked up on 2 involved in this somewhere. But I wonder if this person could even be a core 2, because it sounds like her ultimate concern is wanting to feel loved and valued. 2s seek out reciprocity especially more than 4s as well.

I know this girl (who I think is either ESFJ or ISFJ - she identifies as an introvert) and she struggles with really similar issues. When I was considering her type I was torn between 6 and 2 as well. I think 6 and 2 can have a lot of the same desires but for different motivations. And 2s are typically the most outwardly emotional out of all the heart types.

 

[fetus]

with more information that might be clear.

What kind of information?
[MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION] I think she might have been a 2, because she had that being loved/valued obsession (and she obviously talked about it a lot), but the 2's I've known have always tended towards compulsive giving/losing personal identity rather than self-absorption and selfishness.

 

[HongDou]

[MENTION=17131]Chanaynay[/MENTION] I think she might have been a 2, because she had that being loved/valued obsession (and she obviously talked about it a lot), but the 2's I've known have always tended towards compulsive giving/losing personal identity rather than self-absorption and selfishness.

Hmm, well if you think she could have been a 2 and she had the primary motives/desires of a 2 then that's already strong evidence in that direction. O:

2, like SFJ, is kind of skewed in one direction when its behavior can manifest in a lot of different ways. Elfboy once called 2 the seducer and while that's also kind of a narrow depiction of the type I think it shows how 2s don't have to necessarily engage in generosity or bending over backwards for other people to feel special and loved, and it can manifest in a lot of different ways. My mom is a 2w3 and I don't think she ever lost touch with who she was, she was born 3rd out of 4 kids (the first two were girls so we was already a middle child, and the 4th kid was a boy who got all of her dad's attention) so her motivations started with her wishing her parents would treat her more special. She worked her ass off to achieve and feel the approval of her parents. She had different priorities than the rest of her siblings but she never changed who she was, she obviously stood out to be voted "most sophisticated" in her high school yearbook. It's just that because she was never made to feel special as a kid a lot of her actions had a latent motivation of wanting to feel loved and appreciated. If that's what it comes down to for this girl I'd say 2.

 

[estorm]

I'd say 4.
- The attention to inner emotional life, and dramatic displays when stressed.
- Intensifying their emotional experience.
- Desire for unique life story.
- The movement to 2 fearing they've damaged relationships.
- Your reaction to the "constant emotional turmoil".

 

[Masokissed]

Do you know what she's like when she's healthy?

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I am trying to type somebody in my life who was extremely unhealthy. Because Enneagram deals a lot with dysfunction, I was wondering if you could help me find her type--core or tri.

Well, it seemed like she was always looking for things to get upset over. When something minor happened, she would tease her sadness until the issue became insurmountable. It seemed like she put herself in painful situations or sabotaged herself so she could get comfort and pity. One time she confided in me that she felt like she almost liked going through tough times so she could have an interesting life story, and to feel like she overcame something and came out stronger. When she was us, she was preoccupied with abandonment. All the time she felt like we were going to leave her, that she was our second choice, that we didn't like her, that everyone was out to get her, that we would replace her with someone better. It was like paranoia; if she was sitting on the end, she thought it was because we hated her. She constantly made everything about her--if we were ever laughing and joking around with someone else, she would freak out and think she was being replaced. So she became super clingy and constantly dumped her problems on us. Like, she never asked us how we were doing; she just started talking about her pain. She never once screamed at us, but she would become super passive-aggressive--like subtweeting, silent treatment, or purposely having a "dramatically good time" with someone else in front of us to make us feel bad or to communicate her feelings. She was passive-aggressive about a lot of things, like she didn't come up to us and say she was upset--she would go off by herself and start crying until we noticed her, act hurt until we asked if she was okay, or posted concerning things on the internet in hopes that we would be concerned and ask her about it. This was the only way she expressed that she was mad at us. If we told her she'd hurt our feelings, she would be vicious to herself and spiral into suicidal ideation. I feel like she did a lot of self-hatred to get our attention and sympathy to validate that we cared and wouldn't leave her, but I know she actually hated herself a whole lot too--we constantly had to tell her that she was not a bad person. I think she had a lot more hatred for herself than anyone else. Whenever she messed up at all, even on something really minor, she would tell herself that she deserved to die.

I grew very weary of her constant emotional turmoil. After months of this, she finally sought professional therapy.

Does any of her behavior indicate any specific type, or is this too unhealthy to be typed at all?

Who is this you are referring to? You only refer to her as 'she'.

 

[fetus]

Do you know what she's like when she's healthy?

Yeah, she was pretty healthy when I first became friends with her, and she's gotten better after I convinced her to go to therapy. Creative, self-aware, pretty confident, reflective. She's still annoyingly passive at times (doesn't want to discuss her problems and be a rain cloud, skirts around the main issues), but I feel like she really needs to talk as well. She just needs to be more direct about it rather than waiting for someone to ask. But I don't blame her because I also struggle with it.

Who is this you are referring to? You only refer to her as 'she'.

A friend. I don't want to use her real name on the Internet or to other people. Privacy reasons.

 

[GIjade]

I'm similar to your friend, though not like her completely. And I'll tell you why I'm like that.
#1. Pre-occupied with abandonment. Reason: because I've been so deeply betrayed by friends and family, that I can hardly believe what they did. They lied to me, abused me, held secrets from me that were about me, and on and on and on. They made a complete fool of me. And they still try to do it. I didn't know this for most of my life, that's how good they were at keeping me in the dark, at lying and acting. And, that's how gullible I must have been. So, who wouldn't think that they were going to be abandoned, if that's what their family and friends thought of them.
#2. Second choice. Reason: I also found out that my family and friends are very talented and intelligent people. Most of my life I didn't know this either. So, now, who is a parent going to be more fond of, a child who didn't succeed in life, or those who did.
#3.Everyone's out to get me. Reason: see answer number one.
#4. Can't go up to them and say something. Reason, they don't acknowledge their wrongdoing. And they're passive aggressive to no end.

I don't hate myself. I actually like myself. Which is why I stay the way I am, "be yourself" , yes, that I do. We fight because they don't want to admit to what they did, they don't want to talk about it, they don't want me to be myself, they want me to be like them. I would rather die than be like them.

 

[Masokissed]

Yeah, she was pretty healthy when I first became friends with her, and she's gotten better after I convinced her to go to therapy. Creative, self-aware, pretty confident, reflective. She's still annoyingly passive at times (doesn't want to discuss her problems and be a rain cloud, skirts around the main issues), but I feel like she really needs to talk as well. She just needs to be more direct about it rather than waiting for someone to ask. But I don't blame her because I also struggle with it.

Well, her unhealthy side kind of sounds like me at my unhealthiest. So I'd say our options here are 4, 7, or 2. 6 I'm not buying.

 

[Kullervo]

I can easily see a phobic 6w7 behaving this way when highly unhealthy. Ahem...levels 8 and 9:

'Feeling persecuted, that others are “out to get them,” they lash-out and act irrationally, bringing about what they fear. Fanaticism, violence. Hysterical, and seeking to escape punishment, they become self-destructive and suicidal. Alcoholism, drug overdoses, “skid row,” self-abasing behavior. Generally corresponds to the Passive-Aggressive and Paranoid personality disorders.' - Enneagram Institute

 

[thoughtlost]

Yeah, I don't understand how people cannot see that as a potential E6. 6s disintegrate to the heart center ...so they can totally appear overly whiny and "no one wants me/I am not valued".

it bothers me how little people understand of type 6. Not saying that it's "her" type because I only know her through the context of the OP. But 6 should not be out of the running.

Oh and 2s don't lose a sense of who they are. They are very entitled folks. The heart center people have a very strong sense of self from what I can tell in my life experience with them.

 

[EJCC]

I agree with the others on 2, 6, and 4, being the top possibilities. Also 9w8 or 8w9 gut fix, much more than 1.

One time she confided in me that she felt like she almost liked going through tough times so she could have an interesting life story, and to feel like she overcame something and came out stronger.

^ This may not be type-related, but I am the same as your friend in this regard. Felt like it for my entire life.

 

[fetus]

What about her gut fix? Could the passive aggressive behavior be a 9 thing? I know she had problems with any decision making, like she left everything up to us to decide. Low self-assertiveness, idealized relationships so we were like gods to her. Had perfectionistic tendencies and extreme self-blame and criticism like a 1. I think she may have been 9w8 or 9w1.

 

[EJCC]

I don't really see her being a 6. Sure, she has the abandoment fixation (which is a 6 hallmark) but I don't really see the pervasive paranoia of everyone is out to get her. She seems to be (maladatively) doing something about it, which 6's generally don't.

I am leaning to 4w3, maybe 7w6. The reason I say 4 is I see a strong dissolution to 2 going on here. I see a bit of 7 going to 1, and with more information that might be clear. The self-critical nature is leaking as it does when a 7 goes south, but it's heavily focused on others and the reciprocity of that, that leads me to suspect 4.

^ Leaning more towards 4w3 the more I think about it, because of the bolded. There's no reason to suspect healthy 2, and plenty of reason to suspect healthy 4. What you're describing as your friend's positive traits seem more 4-ish than 2-ish IMO.

What about her gut fix? Could the passive aggressive behavior be a 9 thing? I know she had problems with any decision making, like she left everything up to us to decide. Low self-assertiveness, idealized relationships so we were like gods to her. Had perfectionistic tendencies and extreme self-blame and criticism like a 1. I think she may have been 9w8 or 9w1.

9w8 maybe? But as a fix and not primary.

 

[Duffy]

I'm late to the thread.

One way to determine your friends type would be to figure out which triad she falls under. It's apparent she does a lot of acting out in order to garner response and attention. That alone throws her into the reactive triad on the harmonics side of things. She's doesn't sound assertive at all, so it's between withdrawn and compliant for the hornevian triad. Does she move toward (compliant) or away from people (withdrawn)? Lastly, there's the head, heart, gut triad, which is self explanatory.

I don't think she directly expresses it, but I think the paranoia of everyone being out to get her could manifest in different ways. Like, the fear of your friends intentionally trying to replace you.

I agree. The friend may be a sexual subtype. The sexual 6, for instance, seeks security through attraction & repulsion, the whole beauty & strength dynamic. Friends and lovers averting their eyes, even momentarily, may be enough to incite feelings of abandonment (threat to security). It doesn't have to be a literal threat to physical security.

I know 4s are often creatures of fantasy and prone to idealization, but this portion sounded more 6 style idealizing:

Low self-assertiveness, idealized relationships so we were like gods to her. Had perfectionistic tendencies and extreme self-blame and criticism like a 1. I think she may have been 9w8 or 9w1.

Her tritype is 4-6-9, triple doubting. I figure it's between 4w3 or 6w7. I've known an ISFJ 6 to act similarly, but not as self pitying as there was more "doing" involved to relieve stress. This person is 6w7-1w2-2w3.

On the 4 side of things, I can't say I relate to your friend as a whole behaviorally (difference in subtype?), but I do sense a familiarity in emotional masochism. Fours are a frustration type, which means they subconsciously, and continuously, put themselves in the position to be disappointed. Regardless of what they obtain, it's never enough. Your friend sounds like a sexual subtype to me, so if she's a 4, you'd look into how envy manifests in this subtype. I'm either sp/sx or sx/sp. In the sexual domain, I don't vie for attention when it comes to competition for love and affection. It feels primitive to do so. I do have problems with envy that sounds more like the sexual subtype in that it's less of a longing, and more of a belligerent quality, though I'm familiar with both. In the self pres domain, it's about creating an environment and circumstance that actualizes an internal ideal, as well as contributing to that ideal self. I've jumped from job to job recklessly within a span of a few months, even weeks, because it felt stagnant. Have spent money on hobbies and other miscellaneous absurdities in the name of self development. Beatrice Chesnut had an example of sp 4 doing the same thing. So another way is to view her type through each instinct.

 

[fetus]

Surprise, bitches! The person in the thread is me. Didn't want to reveal it until now.

 

[á´…eparted]

Surprise, bitches! The person in the thread is me. Didn't want to reveal it until now.

Well, considering I have seen you more of a 4 than anything else, this feels fairly justifying in that analysis. Interesting way to approach this, and also sort of brave because people could have easily been much more outwardly nasty since people would think they are talking to someone they never met.