[MBTI General] What's wrong with being an xNTJ, anyway?

[darkmoon]

Personally I think xNTJs make great bosses. I guess the best position for an xNTJ is to be the owner of a business. That way you can set your goal and employ the sort of people who want to work hard with you to get there.

But in other cases where you are an employed manager and someone else already hired the staff the best thing is just to figure out what type of personality each member has and understand things from their point of view. Like someone else said everyone is an individual so they have to be treated differently to suit their type. Some people will never understand your xNTJ style but at least if you try to see things from their point of view things may be a little easier.

Good luck.

 

[Spartacuss]

Usually when people say "cold" they mean rude or lacking in social graces.

In my experience, you can be polite and proper with people and still if they are your subordinates and you don't go out of your way to coddle them and become their buddies, you will be termed cold.
[end attribution]
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I've been in a somewhat similar position before and it can be a pain if you are not particularly interested in them as people outside of their roles. What do you do when you have different work values, e.g., such that merely reminding slackers of their duties is taken as "Enyo is cold"? Because that's how some people operate.

Some take work as a place to be social and feel like you're silently judging them if you are not all-in with the chit chat, which I find frankly tiresome.
Change jobs or push to hire more matter of fact people like yourself. Hey, the latter worked for me. Well, that and celebrating and rewarding good work when they did it - appeal to their egos and pockets, if possible. Show you can be impressed by their work efforts. Showy if largely symbolic campaigns on their behalf help, too, e.g. getting little perks from more senior management for your staff. It's kind of silly, but whatever works.

 

[Enyo]

In my experience, you can be polite and proper with people and still if they are your subordinates and you don't go out of your way to coddle them and become their buddies, you will be termed cold.
[end attribution]
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I've been in a somewhat similar position before and it can be a pain if you are not particularly interested in them as people outside of their roles. What do you do when you have different work values, e.g., such that merely reminding slackers of their duties is taken as "Enyo is cold"? Because that's how some people operate.

Some take work as a place to be social and feel like you're silently judging them if you are not all-in with the chit chat, which I find frankly tiresome.
Change jobs or push to hire more matter of fact people like yourself. Hey, the latter worked for me. Well, that and celebrating and rewarding good work when they did it - appeal to their egos and pockets, if possible. Show you can be impressed by their work efforts. Showy if largely symbolic campaigns on their behalf help, too, e.g. getting little perks from more senior management for your staff. It's kind of silly, but whatever works.

You know, that's the thing is that I don't really know any of these people. I know a little bit, like who's going to university and what for. I know who has health issues. If someone calls in sick, I call to tell them that I hope they feel better.

I thank them for doing something well or just tell them as simple as "great job", or "I really appreciate you doing x."

I'm getting ready for work right now, and my main thought is "eleven months to go. Just eleven more months."

It's not that I don't care about these people or appreciate the job that they do. It's just that I don't understand feelings. I mean, sure, I have them, but I don't really see the value in using them to make or influence decisions. And since I don't see what they could possibly do to increase output, I don't really use them. Likewise, I don't really understand what I'm supposed to do for *their* feelings, particularly if it isn't communicated to me.

I've explained it this way to some of them: "If you want efficiency and results, I'm your girl. Give me a report and I can analyze it seven ways to Sunday, and use that data to improve, correct, or maintain status quo. Give me a problem and I'll solve it, give me a target and I'll hit it. But feelings? Not so much. I'm actually kind of stupid in that regard."

 

[DigitalMethod]

I've explained it this way to some of them: "If you want efficiency and results, I'm your girl. Give me a report and I can analyze it seven ways to Sunday, and use that data to improve, correct, or maintain status quo. Give me a problem and I'll solve it, give me a target and I'll hit it. But feelings? Not so much. I'm actually kind of stupid in that regard."

That sounds cold.
As in lack of feeling.
But I think that is just fine.
My intuition tells me that it is just "whining". Picking at one thing they dislike.
I think if you sat them down and asked them "what are some qualities you like about my managing?" and "what are you some qualities you dislike about my managing?" then it might be more enlightening.

How many people are you dealing with? If it's sorta small, then you could just have a meeting and just tell them in a group like manner - your above quote. Just explain to them.

I'm sure that they see you as efficient though, and they probably respect that. They might even prefer an efficient manager more so than a "mommy manager", I mean... doesn't that equate to more money? That makes everyone happy.

But anywho. I think just sitting them down and talking it out if it's possible would be pretty good. Just try to not bring up MBTI... some people just won't understand or understand it and not accept it.

I dunno, I think you sound like a really good manager in my opinion! I'd like an efficient boss who gives me a high five when I get the job done, and being understanding if I'm not up to par with my normal efficiency. You sound pretty friendly in my opinion. But not too friendly, which is important in a work atmosphere. The sort of boss that is like "Okay when we are at work we are being efficient - then once we get the job done we can be more relaxed and friendly." Maybe have like a company activity, show them that your not just an "cold manager". But again, I don't know how many people we're talking about...

 

[FemMecha]

At every job that I've ever had (which has always been or lead to managerial/supervisory positions), my staff complains that I'm cold. I've actually been told that I'm efficient and goal-oriented to a fault.

If anything, more like Tuvok's precision and indifference to feelings with Seven of Nine's drive for perfection.

How on earth can anyone consider it difficult to report to someone who is blunt and clear in expectations? I mean, it's not like you ever wonder where you stand with this person.

I'm even willing to help you learn to meet my expectations if you don't meet them now. You can't possibly meet them if you don't have the tools to do it.

So, can someone explain to me where the complication is? Because I really don't get it.

I personally prefer reporting to people with that mindset and communication style. It requires a certain perspective though. Most people are personally invested in their own viewpoint, so the shock of sharp, direct honesty rattles them too much. It tends to be effective to develop the ability to glimpse the world through each of these personal vantage points and attempt to communicate on their terms. It is similar to speaking different languages. People who attach emotional content to every word will tend to attach negative emotion to words that don't communicate support and warmth. Context is an important issue here as well. Certain types of authority positions requires that razor's edge style, while other positions requires an element of keeping everyone happy and secure. It depends on the degree of social responsibility of the authority position.

People tend to be self-invested and insecure, so it helps when authority figures develop the ability to reassure people when giving critiques. Also remember that many people are hardwired to feel invalidated by authority - people who have had parents or teachers be negative in a personally demeaning manner. When someone in power treats you like you are nothing (especially at an early age) it can affect the way you see yourself. If there is something good that can be said about the person's performance, start with that so the person knows you have positive thoughts as well.

 

[Algora J]

I've been in a somewhat similar position before and it can be a pain if you are not particularly interested in them as people outside of their roles. What do you do when you have different work values, e.g., such that merely reminding slackers of their duties is taken as "Enyo is cold"? Because that's how some people operate.

I tend to have the philosophy that there is a project goal- or an overall goal to be accomplished- and not particularly the 9-5er who clocks in and out and am supposed to be doing busy work in that time frame. There was several studies conducted that workers were more productive if they took two 15 min breaks instead of not taking one at all.

I think it primarily depends on the industry, but I know of one company that is "project driven" (not 9-5) and makes it easy for workers to take breaks, go on bike rides, rent out company cars to take shopping breaks and so on. They have a standard of high productivity and is probably one of the most successful companies in the world.

Some take work as a place to be social and feel like you're silently judging them if you are not all-in with the chit chat, which I find frankly tiresome.

It sounds like you're more of the type of person who prefers to work alone or at home.

Change jobs or push to hire more matter of fact people like yourself. Hey, the latter worked for me. Well, that and celebrating and rewarding good work when they did it - appeal to their egos and pockets, if possible. Show you can be impressed by their work efforts. Showy if largely symbolic campaigns on their behalf help, too, e.g. getting little perks from more senior management for your staff. It's kind of silly, but whatever works.

You also seem to dislike hierarchy. Have you thought of going into business for yourself where you do not have to report to other people?

 

[lastrailway]

I didn't read the whole thread, but, based on the OP and a couple of posts more, I don't get either why people have problem with your way of management. If you are helpful, explicit in describing what exactly you want to be done and accept no as an answer and, however, you still don't get results and people complain about you, then there's something else you're doing wrong.
Maybe the deadlines you give are very tight? Maybe you give priorities to projects that conflict with what people are currently working on? Maybe you're overly controlling and look above people's shoulders to see how are they progressing? Or maybe you've just landed to a very relaxed environment and people find you overly demanding (in which case, of course, it has to do more with the previous management than with you).

On a side note, I have an xNTJ boss that I don't like for all sort of reasons, one of them would be that his way of management is pretty much the totally opposite of what you're describing.

 

[Algora J]

On a side note, I have an xNTJ boss that I don't like for all sort of reasons, one of them would be that his way of management is pretty much the totally opposite of what you're describing.

Just curious, but can you give a couple of specifics on what his management style is? I didn't find the OP gave enough info to make an assessment of her style, except that she hates social interaction with her staff.

 

[lastrailway]

Just curious, but can you give a couple of specifics on what his management style is? I didn't find the OP gave enough info to make an assessment of her style, except that she hates social interaction with her staff.

Sure:
-He chooses to ignore what priorities has each member of the group, which is quite a big deal, when everyone is working on and paid for different projects, as is the case here. Instead, he presses some particular goals, probably of interest to him, but not necessarily to all the stuff.
-He requires a long explanation on what exactly you intend to do before you even start doing something. Since the situation in my case is, as I mentioned above, several projects running simultaneously, he tries to combine different projects in one process. So no matter how comprehensive your original plan is, he will ask you to adapt it so to include the "general goals". This might seem positive for a manager's point of view, but it's not positive for the people actually working on the project and need to report a progress of their part to those who pay us.
-He is very controlling. For some people that are used to work pretty much independently, this is totally counter-productive.
-On the top of all the above, when you do need his help (as in ordering material, or having somebody to help you, now with the vacations and everything), he is never willing to do it. He only offers unwanted help that isn't really very helpful in the end.

In contrast, if I read well the OP, he says that he leaves enough room to the stuff to work as they see fit, as long they give him the expected results and he is understanding of people different priorities.

 

[Algora J]

Sure:
-He chooses to ignore what priorities has each member of the group, which is quite a big deal, when everyone is working on and paid for different projects, as is the case here. Instead, he presses some particular goals, probably of interest to him, but not necessarily to all the stuff.
-He requires a long explanation on what exactly you intend to do before you even start doing something. Since the situation in my case is, as I mentioned above, several projects running simultaneously, he tries to combine different projects in one process. So no matter how comprehensive your original plan is, he will ask you to adapt it so to include the "general goals". This might seem positive for a manager's point of view, but it's not positive for the people actually working on the project and need to report a progress of their part to those who pay us.
-He is very controlling. For some people that are used to work pretty much independently, this is totally counter-productive.
-On the top of all the above, when you do need his help (as in ordering material, or having somebody to help you, now with the vacations and everything), he is never willing to do it. He only offers unwanted help that isn't really very helpful in the end.

In contrast, if I read well the OP, he says that he leaves enough room to the stuff to work as they see fit, as long they give him the expected results and he is understanding of people different priorities.

What makes you think he's an NTJ?

 

[Spartacuss]

It sounds like you're more of the type of person who prefers to work alone or at home.

You also seem to dislike hierarchy. Have you thought of going into business for yourself where you do not have to report to other people?

Hmm..., but I loved my job, actually. And I got record results.
Once we phased out the more disruptive chatterbox fluffies (replaced with people more to my liking, which made the workplace a lot more enjoyable, as we related better), and got everyone in more competitive gear (with each other), we rocked as a team.
I guess I do dislike hierarchy to a degree, but I'm O.K. as long as I have a good deal of autonomy and room to challenge myself. What is not fine is having to deal with distractions that, at bottom, have nothing to do with the job because people need to be babied.

 

[lastrailway]

What makes you think he's an NTJ?

His way of thinking strikes to me as clear Te. He know what he wants and figures out the steps to reach it.
Not extremely sure about the Ni part, but some apparently unfounded statements he frequently makes, with no obvious or linear logic underneath matches the Ni descriptions I've read. Coupled with the objectives he sets, sometimes.

 

[Algora J]

His way of thinking strikes to me as clear Te. He know what he wants and figures out the steps to reach it.
Not extremely sure about the Ni part, but some apparently unfounded statements he frequently makes, with no obvious or linear logic underneath matches the Ni descriptions I've read. Coupled with the objectives he sets, sometimes.

Maybe you should have him take the test. He sounds more like an INFJ to me.

 

[Algora J]

Hmm..., but I loved my job, actually. And I got record results.
Once we phased out the more disruptive chatterbox fluffies (replaced with people more to my liking, which made the workplace a lot more enjoyable, as we related better), and got everyone in more competitive gear (with each other), we rocked as a team.
I guess I do dislike hierarchy to a degree, but I'm O.K. as long as I have a good deal of autonomy and room to challenge myself. What is not fine is having to deal with distractions that, at bottom, have nothing to do with the job because people need to be babied.

That makes sense, I hate babying people. Of course, that's completely different from being social and cordial.

What sort of distractions do you mean?

 

[lastrailway]

Maybe you should have him take the test. He sounds more like an INFJ to me.

Why he sounds INFJ?

 

[Spartacuss]

That makes sense, I hate babying people. Of course, that's completely different from being social and cordial.

What sort of distractions do you mean?

I am all for cordiality. But the extensive discussion of personal lives was distraction enough. Then, of course, others had to chime in with their commiseration, which was more distraction.

 

[Algora J]

Why he sounds INFJ?

Because he isn't interested in priorities and he is only interested in his own agenda- not a particularly NTJ trait. Also he is controlling. INFJs tend to be this way, both in their professional and personal relationships.

 

[Enyo]

That sounds cold.
As in lack of feeling.
But I think that is just fine.
My intuition tells me that it is just "whining". Picking at one thing they dislike.
I think if you sat them down and asked them "what are some qualities you like about my managing?" and "what are you some qualities you dislike about my managing?" then it might be more enlightening.

How many people are you dealing with? If it's sorta small, then you could just have a meeting and just tell them in a group like manner - your above quote. Just explain to them.

I'm sure that they see you as efficient though, and they probably respect that. They might even prefer an efficient manager more so than a "mommy manager", I mean... doesn't that equate to more money? That makes everyone happy.

But anywho. I think just sitting them down and talking it out if it's possible would be pretty good. Just try to not bring up MBTI... some people just won't understand or understand it and not accept it.

I dunno, I think you sound like a really good manager in my opinion! I'd like an efficient boss who gives me a high five when I get the job done, and being understanding if I'm not up to par with my normal efficiency. You sound pretty friendly in my opinion. But not too friendly, which is important in a work atmosphere. The sort of boss that is like "Okay when we are at work we are being efficient - then once we get the job done we can be more relaxed and friendly." Maybe have like a company activity, show them that your not just an "cold manager". But again, I don't know how many people we're talking about...

I'm not bad at managing for the numbers. My last job was in a high turnover industry. If we lost less than 5% in a month, it was a good month. I didn't lose any staff for my last 6 months, and the three that I did lose in the months before were lost because they moved away from town.

I've got about 25 people that I'm managing, after losing the 5 that were freaking out over my heartlessness. I celebrate successes with a high five. I thank them for helping in other areas where I'd have been screwed without their assistance. When the numbers aren't where they should be, I coach and role-play instead of just bitch at them. When they are busy (I have four other departments still, even without losing the department that was bitching about me), I help them. If I don't know what they need and I can see that they are busy, I let them put me to work like I reported to them instead of the other way around.

I have had the "great with numbers, suck at feelings" conversation with my people that were here today. And I've started cc'ing my boss on emails that I send out to the ones that think I'm heartless.

It was a good day today. Even though I was short-handed (one girl in one of my departments called in, while another girl in a different department called in sick, and a third one left early from yet a different department because she was obviously ill), all of my areas made their numbers. And I was a bit of a counselor to another one of my people (a young one who just finished high school and is about to go off to university) when she and her high school sweetheart broke up.

I'm trying to work on that whole "build a connection" thing.

 

[Enyo]

I didn't find the OP gave enough info to make an assessment of her style, except that she hates social interaction with her staff.

It's not that I hate social interaction with my staff. It's that I don't know how to socially interact with my staff. I wish I could sit down and just chat.

I'm uncomfortable with social interaction for the sake of interaction, period.

 

[Maabus1999]

It's not that I hate social interaction with my staff. It's that I don't know how to socially interact with my staff. I wish I could sit down and just chat.

I'm uncomfortable with social interaction for the sake of interaction, period.

Practice. Do what I did with my INTJ quest for perfection: get a bunch of communication books(they have some MBTI ones out there), teach yourself, and practice.