[NF] What is feeling, really?

[Athenian200]

My belief is that it's something within people that connects us to others and to our own motivations. I've heard some say that it's actually an aspect of reality outside of people, but I don't really believe that feelings would exist without people to experience them. I feel like you need people to have feelings... and that they aren't a part of reality itself, but are the most important pattern for us in a more intricate and complex reality that includes people.

Also, do you distinguish between "higher" and "lower" emotions? For instance, higher ones being things such as charity, politeness, and a sense of pride. Lower ones could be things like lust, anger, and fear. I tend to feel good about the higher ones, and avoid the lower ones as much as possible.

 

[wedekit]

My belief is that it's something within people that connects us to others and to our own motivations. I've heard some say that it's actually an aspect of reality outside of people, but I don't really believe that feelings would exist without people to experience them. I feel like you need people to have feelings... and that they aren't a part of reality itself, but are the most important pattern for us in a more intricate and complex reality that includes people.

Also, do you distinguish between "higher" and "lower" emotions? For instance, higher ones being things such as charity, politeness, and a sense of pride. Lower ones could be things like lust, anger, and fear. I tend to feel good about the higher ones, and avoid the lower ones as much as possible.

I think "higher emotions" are very distinguishable as products of "higher thinking".

 

[Xander]

A word used to describe a state of mind, linked to what value to oneself the object/ whatever more than to objective use or purpose.

That make sense?

 

[disregard]

Charity, politeness, and a sense of pride aren't of much merit in my mind..

Lust, anger, and fear teach us so much about ourselves... charity, politeness, and pride only pull the wool that much further over our orbs.

Feelings are tools.. they are involuntary reactions that can give us a lot of insight into our needs.. if you could only listen to them.. you can find the key to your happiness.

 

[vince]

My belief is that it's something within people that connects us to others and to our own motivations. I've heard some say that it's actually an aspect of reality outside of people, but I don't really believe that feelings would exist without people to experience them. I feel like you need people to have feelings... and that they aren't a part of reality itself, but are the most important pattern for us in a more intricate and complex reality that includes people.

Also, do you distinguish between "higher" and "lower" emotions? For instance, higher ones being things such as charity, politeness, and a sense of pride. Lower ones could be things like lust, anger, and fear. I tend to feel good about the higher ones, and avoid the lower ones as much as possible.

There's not much I can add there.

I often have a hard time understanding non-F types. To me emotion seems as evident as reason. Or even part of it. And if you experience emotions, you might as well try and cultivate them, in the way you mentioned higher & lower energies.

 

[sciski]

Feelings are states of mind that colour your world and bias your thinking one way or another.

A feeling can wrest conscious control away from your body. It is a very deep and unsettling force that destroys the coolness and state of balance within. Feelings can be moderated - to a limited extent - by conscious thought (rationalisation) or repression. They always find some way out though.

To me, the worst feeling is that deep sense of injustice. I feel it as if there is a large lump in me that has rearranged my insides. I have to get it out to feel normal again.

I think feelings can be counted as the motivation, not the connection between motivation and action.. we act so that our positive feelings are enhanced, or act so that we can stop the encroachment of negative feelings.

I think there are 'base' feelings that are hormonally derived (lust and anger) - these tend to be very strong yet usually fleeting, very bodily-driven (when I'm angry, I can FEEL that adrenalin surging!), and you're in a selfish state. These are caused by simple external events - so they tend to be reactions. eg that person made me angry because they were insensitive... or that person is incredibly hot, I want to have his babies, right now!

Then there are the feelings that are driven by your values, so they're derived internally and built with elements of conscious thought. These tend to be slower in a way, and more constant. They are like the background music to your life. These feelings are complex, have a myriad of causes and make up the core of who you are. So they're different for everyone. Simmering anger can be a part of this state! But this anger is generally more 'noble' - anger at injustice or hypocrisy, for example.

I value charity. Politeness is nice. Pride - that is negatively tinged for me.

 

[Nadir]

Leaping.

 

[Athenian200]

I think "higher emotions" are very distinguishable as products of "higher thinking".

In what way?

Charity, politeness, and a sense of pride aren't of much merit in my mind..

Lust, anger, and fear teach us so much about ourselves... charity, politeness, and pride only pull the wool that much further over our orbs.

Feelings are tools.. they are involuntary reactions that can give us a lot of insight into our needs.. if you could only listen to them.. you can find the key to your happiness.

Yeah... but I'm mildly disgusted by things lust, fear, and anger for the most part. I understand that they exist in people, and I accept that, but I feel disgusted all the same. I tend to idealize the higher ones as things we should strive for. What does that say about me, in your opinion?

I think feelings can be counted as the motivation, not the connection between motivation and action.. we act so that our positive feelings are enhanced, or act so that we can stop the encroachment of negative feelings.

I agree. But awareness of our feelings puts us in touch with our motivations. I guess that's what I meant.

I value charity. Politeness is nice. Pride - that is negatively tinged for me.

Even if it's pride in your work, or pride in trying to be a good person rather than just doing whatever you want?

 

[sciski]

Even if it's pride in your work, or pride in trying to be a good person rather than just doing whatever you want?

Yes - because if I stop to be proud, then I stop. It's a formula for complacency and self-satisfaction. It's kind of weird because I don't see that happening in other people and generally encourage them to 'see how far they've come' without being afraid that they will become complacent.

Thought about this a bit further: I do feel proud of others, I feel proud of the organisation I work for - but my feelings cannot contribute to any complacency because they are external, so then I'm allowed to feel proud! Soooo complicated...

 

[Athenian200]

Yes - because if I stop to be proud, then I stop. It's a formula for complacency and self-satisfaction. It's kind of weird because I don't see that happening in other people and generally encourage them to 'see how far they've come' without being afraid that they will become complacent.

Thought about this a bit further: I do feel proud of others, I feel proud of the organisation I work for - but my feelings cannot contribute to any complacency because they are external, so then I'm allowed to feel proud! Soooo complicated...

Ah... yes, I understand that. I tend to be very down on myself, pessimistic. I only believe something good about myself if several people say it, and then it only takes one person disagreeing to make me start doubting myself again.

I definitely tend to be proud of things that people are close to me accomplish... vicariously, I guess. I always tend to think my own accomplishments are a just a fluke for some reason.

 

[disregard]

I didn't mean that yours were bad, I only have different ideas of what is virtuous. What I am working on are: discretion (keeping things to myself when they regard others), responsibility (accounting for my own mistakes), toughness (not being so sensitive), prudence (not being so quick to disclose about oneself), obedience (at work) .

 

[Domino]

Feelings, to me, are just as real as the stimuli or events that trigger them. If we didn't have "emotions" would we still experience said event for what it should be? Would we eat roadkill (MET! ) if we didn't have an aversion to dead things (i.e. a primal fear of contagion)? If we didn't feel afraid, would we step in front of trains? People with manic depression are often beleaguered with this very problem. Their feelings are so out of joint that they are, in essence, in a separate reality that is unkind to the odds of their continued existence.

Also, any feeling has a duality and hence, can't be placed in a bad or good pile. The "lower" epithet should only be attached to a feeling when it engenders a poisonous result. Anger can be constructive, or destructive, but I don't regard anger, no matter how powerful or overarching, to be wholly bad, just as human beings are not wholly bad. Even lust can be a good way to shove you past what you deny an attraction to. It's all in how you react.

Am I following you, Athenian, or have I gone horribly awry?

 

[wildcat]

My belief is that it's something within people that connects us to others and to our own motivations. I've heard some say that it's actually an aspect of reality outside of people, but I don't really believe that feelings would exist without people to experience them. I feel like you need people to have feelings... and that they aren't a part of reality itself, but are the most important pattern for us in a more intricate and complex reality that includes people.

Also, do you distinguish between "higher" and "lower" emotions? For instance, higher ones being things such as charity, politeness, and a sense of pride. Lower ones could be things like lust, anger, and fear. I tend to feel good about the higher ones, and avoid the lower ones as much as possible.

Fear has a place. If you did not have this noble feeling, would you be alive in the first place?
Anger has its uses.. it is a sound counter measure against depression.
The Pope said you should not lust after your wife. If you are a Popist you cannot beget children then. So what. You can always adopt.

 

[vince]

Yeah... but I'm mildly disgusted by things lust, fear, and anger for the most part. I understand that they exist in people, and I accept that, but I feel disgusted all the same. I tend to idealize the higher ones as things we should strive for. What does that say about me, in your opinion?

Lust, fear & anger aren't necessarily lower energies, in my book. Those are actually very natural energies. In essence lust is needed for reproduction, fear for survival. Anger is a little more complex, but it also has to do with survival, comming up for yourself and others, fighting injustice, and so on. The lower energies are things like hate, apathy and the likes.
Anyway, it all depends what you do with your emotions. One can be angry and use that for good or for worse. Emotions are so abstract that you can't label them as good or bad, especially not without looking at its consequences. It all depends how we vent our emotions.

 

[Athenian200]

Those are actually very natural energies. In essence lust is needed for reproduction, fear for survival. Anger is a little more complex, but it also has to do with survival, comming up for yourself and others, fighting injustice, and so on. The lower energies are things like hate, apathy and the likes.

To me, the fact that they're "needed and natural" doesn't make them positive. It just means that they can be accepted as existing, and that it would be dangerous to deny their existence.

Feelings, to me, are just as real as the stimuli or events that trigger them. If we didn't have "emotions" would we still experience said event for what it should be? Would we eat roadkill (MET! ) if we didn't have an aversion to dead things (i.e. a primal fear of contagion)? If we didn't feel afraid, would we step in front of trains? People with manic depression are often beleaguered with this very problem. Their feelings are so out of joint that they are, in essence, in a separate reality that is unkind to the odds of their continued existence.

But anyway, PinkPiranha... would you agree if I said that emotion is something within us, that tells us where we are in relation to our current experiences? Basically, a part of our minds that defines reality relative to ourselves? What I'm saying is that it probably isn't actually part of outer reality in and of themselves, in the sense that energy or matter are, but a part of us that reminds us of what/where we are in relation to our perceptions, in terms of both adopted and instinctive values?

 

[SillySapienne]

I experience three distinct forms of feeling, one that derives from my emotions, (which is a no brainer), another that derives from my thoughts, and the third type which is perhaps the most intriguing, yet elusive form, which is the one I derive from my intuition.

My intuitive-based feelings occur randomly, usually during new situations where suddenly, and instantaneously I'll be overwhelmingly bombarded with a strong notion of having a deeper understanding, or knowledge of someone, some situation, or some abstract thing, without having any prior experience or substantial reasoning or proof to logically support it.

It has been a trend of mine to intuit answers and theories regarding both people and problems prior to either logically, or experientially having worked out the exact reasons as to why.

I tend to synthesize first, and then analyze. Which from what I've researched is not the normal way that people tend to process things.

Anyhow these moments of spontaneous synthesis, i.e. intuition, are still a source of wonder and curiosity for me.

 

[vince]

Hey athenian. What is the Theban subjectivity that is mentioned in your signature? I googled it but I didn't find anything specific.

 

[Athenian200]

Hey athenian. What is the Theban subjectivity that is mentioned in your signature? I googled it but I didn't find anything specific.

IIRC, it's a reference to the difference between Sparta's rigidly militaristic lifestyle and exacting laws/standards, and the Theban tendency to be more loosely organized into familial ties with more subjective, tentative standards. It describes how the Athenians were a balance between these two extremes.

 

[vince]

Thanks. I like that.
When I make decisions I try to find a balance too, between emotion & reason, objectivity & subjectivity etc.

which is also why it takes me forever sometimes

 

[alcea rosea]

My belief is that it's something within people that connects us to others and to our own motivations. I've heard some say that it's actually an aspect of reality outside of people, but I don't really believe that feelings would exist without people to experience them. I feel like you need people to have feelings... and that they aren't a part of reality itself, but are the most important pattern for us in a more intricate and complex reality that includes people.

Also, do you distinguish between "higher" and "lower" emotions? For instance, higher ones being things such as charity, politeness, and a sense of pride. Lower ones could be things like lust, anger, and fear. I tend to feel good about the higher ones, and avoid the lower ones as much as possible.

Terribly hard question and almost too philosophical for me.
Feelings just are there. They come and go but life wouldn’t be anything without them. Experience is a good word here. The feelings are there to be experienced.

What do you mean my higher and lower? Do you mean lower as deep feelings inside of yourself. Would higher be Fe and lower Fi? Because I feel lower feelings much more comfortable than high (as you described it).