What happens to your soul when you die?

[/DG/]

Yes, but the 21 grams theory was completely anecdotal, and totally not the basis of my beliefs, and I highly doubt they are the basis of anyone else's here, either.

Yes, I think most people do not believe that the soul has physicall weight, therefore this study neither confirmed nor disproved anyone's beliefs.

 

[Athenian200]

Trying to disprove what people believe spiritually is an utter waste of time. There are highly educated and intelligent people who believe in god, and ignorant people of average intelligence who don't. There is no direct correalation between education or exposure to information and atheism.

I would agree with that. It doesn't matter how intelligent or educated you are, you can still be influenced to hold and defend irrational beliefs that appeal to certain parts of the mind. Religion is usually the least harmful delusions people adopt, actually. Many are far, far more dangerous and harmful. I admit that I've probably got more than a few of my own.

 

[Thalassa]

I would agree with that. It doesn't matter how intelligent you are, you can still be influenced to hold and defend irrational beliefs that appeal to certain parts of the mind. Religion is usually the least harmful delusion people adopt, actually.

I don't think it's a delusion. Just because something isn't rational doesn't make it a delusion. A person can be deeply religious and still be given a clean bill of mental health by a psychiatrist.

 

[Athenian200]

I don't think it's a delusion. Just because something isn't rational doesn't make it a delusion. A person can be deeply religious and still be given a clean bill of mental health by a psychiatrist.

So the only standard here is a clean bill of health by a psychiatrist?

I never said religion made people insane, I just said it was a delusion. Whether the delusion leads them to more psychological unhealthy behaviors is independent of whether they are deluded or not. Some people actually behave in healthier ways because of a delusion.

I'm actually convinced that people need some delusions to function.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Trying to disprove what people believe spiritually is an utter waste of time. There are highly educated and intelligent people who believe in god, and ignorant people of average intelligence who don't. There is no direct correalation between education or exposure to information and atheism.

What does it mean "there are highly educated and intelligent people who believe in God" ?
Since education of some person can be in aspets that have nothing to with religion and spirituality.
Plus your intelligence worth only as much are your education. Intelligence without education is pretty much useless.

What makes you think that there is no correlation between education or exposure to information and atheism?


On the other hand I don't know why I am rated as ignorant here?
Is it just beacuse I don't but the story for which there is no real evidance.


Don't take this too personally.

 

[/DG/]

What makes you think that there is no correlation between education or exposure to information and atheism?

Highly educated people can be religious, the same as dirt-poor, uneducated people can be religious. Highly educated people can be athiests as well, so can uneducated people. Does religion seem like ignorance to you? Many wholesome things can come out of religion. While it is true that religions can be corrupt as many try to persuede people that they are the only truth, but the root of religion comes from the idea of helping others, being true to one another, kindness, etc. If one lives those core values, then they are truly a good human. On the other hand, people don't necessarily need religion to see these things, but I think religion can make people (depending on the person) more wholesome.

On the other hand I don't know why I am rated as ignorant here?
Is it just beacuse I don't but the story for which there is no real evidance..

There is also no evidence that shows that there isn't a god or gods (depending on what you believe).

 

[zago]

Well, if you didn't love jesus your soul goes to a place to get tortured for eternity.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Highly educated people can be religious, the same as dirt-poor, uneducated people can be religious. Highly educated people can be athiests as well, so can uneducated people. Does religion seem like ignorance to you? Many wholesome things can come out of religion. While it is true that religions can be corrupt as many try to persuede people that they are the only truth, but the root of religion comes from the idea of helping others, being true to one another, kindness, etc. If one lives those core values, then they are truly a good human. On the other hand, people don't necessarily need religion to see these things, but I think religion can make people (depending on the person) more wholesome.



There is also no evidence that shows that there isn't a god or gods (depending on what you believe).

1. As I said in my last post "educated people" argument does not mean anything.


2. Yes, but there is a lot of traces that makse God unlikely.


Also I see that you are using statements that are totally mainstream.
Which come down to statement "that we don't know enough"
Would you believe me that religion can suffer a heavy damadge as an idea even if you don't manage to disprove God directly ?

 

[Thalassa]

What does it mean "there are highly educated and intelligent people who believe in God" ?
Since education of some person can be in aspets that have nothing to with religion and spirituality.
Plus your intelligence worth only as much are your education. Intelligence without education is pretty much useless.

What makes you think that there is no correlation between education or exposure to information and atheism?


On the other hand I don't know why I am rated as ignorant here?
Is it just beacuse I don't but the story for which there is no real evidance.


Don't take this too personally.

1) I never said you were ignorant.

2) I'm not taking it personally. I already know how you are from an earlier thread. It's you, not me, I know.

3) There is no correalation between education and exposure to information and atheism because Catholic priests and bishops were for centuries some of the most educated people in the world, and to this day earn PhDs.

4) Your assumption that intelligence without education is useless is exactly why you and I will never, ever have a productive conversation. The fact that you cannot even think outside of the box enough to realize that there have been intelligent individuals who have done amazing things in this world without a formal education (not to mention all the other little guys who just live healthy, happy lives as farmers and such) lets me know that you'll never understand where I'm coming from. Ever.

 

[Mitzy]

soul
no such thing

 

[/DG/]

1. As I said in my last post "educated people" argument does not mean anything.

Then why were you trying to argue that there's a correlation between "exposure to information and athiesm?" By "exposure to information" do you not mean intelligence?

2. Yes, but there is a lot of traces that makse God unlikely.

Are you speaking of God in the Christian sense, or God in the general sense?

 

[Virtual ghost]

1) I never said you were ignorant.

2) I'm not taking it personally. I already know how you are from an earlier thread. It's you, not me, I know.

3) There is no correalation between education and exposure to information and atheism because Catholic priests and bishops were for centuries some of the most educated people in the world, and to this day earn PhDs.

4) Your assumption that intelligence without education is useless is exactly why you and I will never, ever have a productive conversation. The fact that you cannot even think outside of the box enough to realize that there have been intelligent individuals who have done amazing things in this world without a formal education (not to mention all the other little guys who just live healthy, happy lives as farmers and such) lets me know that you'll never understand where I'm coming from. Ever.

1. Well, you said

There are highly educated and intelligent people who believe in god, and ignorant people of average intelligence who don't.

what could indicate that you think that I am ignorant.

2.Good.

3. The fact that Bishops were most educated people for ceturies could mean that they were privileged to have it that way.
Also approach towards the knowledge changes over time what means that most of relavent information is discovered since 1900.
Ok, but in what areas they earn those PhDs for the most part?


4. I know where you are coming from and that is exactly why I disagree.
For example a person can have natural tendencies towards intelligence but if the don't know how to read or calcualte they will not get far.
The education can be formal or unformal but it is still an education.
Your calim that I will never understand also leads into direction that you think I am ignorant.

Then why were you trying to argue that there's a correlation between "exposure to information and athiesm?" By "exposure to information" do you not mean intelligence?




Are you speaking of God in the Christian sense, or God in the general sense?

1. When I say that there is a correlation I mean exposure to purely scientific and religious material can make a capital difference.
If you parents never send you to church you will probably end up as atheist in life. Unless you take more rebelious approach.

2. For now I am talking alout God in general sense,

 

[Thalassa]

1. Well, you said


what could indicate that you think that I am ignorant.

2.Good.

3. The fact that Bishops were most educated people for ceturies could mean that they were privileged to have it that way.
Also approach towards the knowledge changes over time what means that most of relavent information is discovered since 1900.
Ok, but in what areas they earn those PhDs for the most part?


4. I know where you are coming from and that is exactly why I disagree.
For example a person can have natural tendencies towards intelligence but if the don't know how to read or calcualte they will not get far.
The education can be formal or unformal but it is still an education.
Your calim that I will never understand also leads into direction that you think I am ignorant.

1. No way. You just interpreted it that way. My point is that educated or ignorant, a person can be religious, spiritual, or atheist.

3) Priests can have PhDs in science, math, and psychiatry, they aren't always in theology or philosophy. And it's not just priests - plenty of educated people believe in something...doctors, lawyers, teachers, professors...

4) Nope. I just think that you assume others are ignorant. I also think that you are rigidly TJ, and there's nothing an FP can do about it. I don't want to do anything about it. You are who you are. We just do not understand each other, and I feel that your attitude in threads is frequently condecending, which is something I don't like unless it's lightened with humor.

 

[millerm277]

Answer to the OP: I believe exactly what you feel is impossible. You're just gone. Dead, vanished.

 

[/DG/]

1. When I say that there is a correlation I mean exposure to purely scientific and religious material can make a capital difference.
If you parents never send you to church you will probably end up as atheist in life. Unless you take more rebelious approach.

Ahh, I like this wording much better. I'm sure there is some correlation, but this is not always the case.

This reminds me of something Irecall watching something on TV a while back about some organization of people who decided that it was best to let their children decide their own beliefs. They had a "church" per se, but when the children and adults went there, it was more about opening one's mind to possibility and creativity (while still encouraging tolerance of others' ideas). The children were encouraged to decide themselves if indeed there was a God or gods and if they needed to believe in a religion or what they believed life was all about The reporters interviewed some of the children and asked some of their beliefs and many were quite different; some believed in one God, some didn't believe in anything, just principles to follow (sort of like Bhudda?), etc. I found this to be great because no one was telling them what to believe and they were asked to decide on their own what life was about. Sort of going off on a tangent here, but my point is that I think that people should decide for themselves if there is or is not a religion. In this case, religion (or lack thereof) wasn't hurting anyone or making them more segregated. People were coming together in tolerance and discovering the world for themselves. This is sort of what I like to do. (I hope this wasn't some type of cult... I don't really remember all of the TV program. )

I used to go to a Catholic Church when I was younger, later on my family kept going less and less, and now only my father goes to church on Sundays. This is fine, and it works for my family. I develop my own sense of how the world works and why we are here. Some may choose to think that there's nothing special about us and that the world doesn't work in any intricate way. This is fine also, to each his own, but no one is converting me from my "religion."

2. For now I am talking alout God in general sense,

Mind giving me some examples of evidence how no God or higher power can exist?

Answer to the OP: I believe exactly what you feel is impossible. You're just gone. Dead, vanished.

Ahh, yes, this is what many people I've come across on the internet seem to believe. (Not trying to make a pattern here, just observing.) But I refuse to believe this morbid conclusion. I say there must be something. Call me crazy if you will, but there just must be something.

 

[Thalassa]

1. When I say that there is a correlation I mean exposure to purely scientific and religious material can make a capital difference.
If you parents never send you to church you will probably end up as atheist in life. Unless you take more rebelious approach.

2. For now I am talking alout God in general sense,

But how can your first suggestion be correct if a belief in a god in a general sense exists in nearly every culture around the world? This suggests to me that belief in a higher power is not something necessarily taught by parents, if you take organized religion out of the equation. Of course, I'm sure you believe that there's a god gene or something that causes this phenomenon.

Also, if your assumption is true, then why did famous atheist Madeleine Murray O'Hare's son become a preacher?

 

[AOA]

Personally, I think the soul exists - and the way I see it... once we're 'gone' from our physical selves, we become 'free' to an absolute reality. One that is pure of the limits imposed on us, or our consciences if you'd like to call it.

... By limits, I would say every aspect that makes our lives 'trivial' be taken away.

The soul is as real as our minds work, and possibly greater of existence than the 'trivial' issues people often observe/tolerate during the day, etc, in which hardly anybody is sure to what ultimate purpose their way of life serves. It's more of a question about how much conviction one carries in their way of life, which comes across nearest-as-opposed-to-none plausible.

 

[millerm277]

Ahh, yes, this is what many people I've come across on the internet seem to believe. (Not trying to make a pattern here, just observing.) But I refuse to believe this morbid conclusion. I say there must be something. Call me crazy if you will, but there just must be something.

The internet has a tendency to attract technical people and such, which at least seem to be far less religious than the general population. And it stands to reason that it is fairly likely that atheists are less likely to believe in an afterlife?

Anyway, my personal beliefs are actually in a way based much more on my own introspection, and my constant forays extraordinarily close to the edge of death....have just produced this disbelief in me that there is anything but nothingness beyond it.

For your information - I'm an ISTP, I like almost anything dangerous. I've climbed mountains with ledges and handholds, jumped off cliffs on skis and then dodged boulders and drop-offs on the way down the chute at highway speeds on two little planks of wood/fiberglass, explosives and firearms are fun too. One wrong move or miscalculation in most things I like to do, and I won't be here anymore.

 

[Riva]

after the body dies, the mind is still alive, if only for couple of minutes. the lack of oxygen to the brain causes the mind to go into an unstable state of hallucinations and relief of thoughts that could be associated with seeing your personal heaven or hell. after this, it goes black.

good point. thanks for the info.

 

[CrystalViolet]

I am quite calm actually.


1. This is exactly what I was saying. You have opened a link and you presume that I will be less critical to somedegree.
But I will not do that since I am pretty sure that this entire idea about those 21 grams has started like this in the first place. Which is that someone sent this claim into the public and people have accepted it as a fact or realistic possibility.


2. As far as I know there is a lot of very religious people in this world and I am sure that many of them would be quite happy to sereve as guinea-pigs in this matters. If nothing just to show a good argument that their belief is a correct one.

Also there is a fact that 21 gram is very small differece that can be easy to overlook or falsify.





On the other hand your link mentons experiments from 1907. Which proves that this is not a new idea. But in 1907 ethics was far less developed then it is today so I don't see why you couldn't make public presentations on this topic.

Especially since people were more religious a century ago then they are today. Plus the Church could have achived great benefits from this.
Especially because since that were the times in history when secularism strarted to spread.


Instead people make mysticism out of everything. What could be a good indicator that "they" don't have anything but a fairy-tale.

It was just information I provided. Nothing more.