[ISTP] Unhealthy ISTP

[luminous beam]

^my ISTP friend told me to call ppl dykes....dyke! lol

 

[jixmixfix]

You're good!




That's EXACTLY my problem too

I see myself as harsh .... but i understand how people are feeling i cant feel with them as much.

 

[StephMC]

steph, i don't think the reason why people get the wrong idea here is your motive and intent. the problem here is the lack of awareness and attention it takes to note what you're doing or saying and how that is making the other person feel. they're seeing it as lack of consideration from your part in that regard. however, that doesn't justify others taking it out on you if you were simply unaware of it all. it's a miss-communication. how do you solve this problem? talk about it more openly sorry, there's no way of really going around it. you either address it or ignore it. if you address it there is the possibility of resolving the issue for good. if you ignore it, it might appear to be resolved temporarily, but it'll continue to happen over and over again...or either party will cut ties and end up leaving, hurt, annoyed, confused and possibly resentful.

You're probably right. Over the years, my ENFP sister (through positive AND negative experiences) has taught me to be a little more careful about what I say. I've noticed that most people (Except some NFs... I think NFs and STPs have more miscommunication than some) tend to view me as considerate and understanding ... mostly based on my whole "treat others as I want to be treated" belief (It's pretty much the only thing that stops me from being unintentionally insensitive all the live long day). I -try- to be aware. I filter things through my head before I say them. People that know me have learned that I don't usually mean harm, and shrug off some of the comments that come out wrong. Phoenity hit the nail on the head when he said we don't always realize what we say is hurtful until after it is said, and almost always follow up by introspection. In more serious conversations, I've improved on this. I'm -very- particular with my words now. So now it's usually the everyday casual conversation that I mess up on.

Here's a fun example:
(While at a Hooter's restaurant, I was joking that I should fill out an application because I was broke and for shits and giggles.... long story... alcohol was involved.... And I didn't go through with it because an ESFJ friend didn't let me. Hooray for ESFJs!)
Me: "I'm just wearing a Tee-shirt though. I think I should be dressed a little sluttier or something. Hey, Rach (My sister), let me borrow your shirt for a sec...."
[10 seconds of being stared at.]
Me: "Aw, crap."

Just a disclaimer: I don't usually put my thought process into words! So if I spoke what my real thought process would be it would be more like "I'm just wearing a Tee-shirt though. I look kinda crumby. I think I should be dressed either more slutty, or at least a little more cute. Oh... Rach's shirt is cute.... Hey, Rach, let me borrow your shirt for a sec!"

 

[jixmixfix]

You're probably right. Over the years, my ENFP sister (through positive AND negative experiences) has taught me to be a little more careful about what I say. I've noticed that most people (Except some NFs... I think NFs and STPs have more miscommunication than some) tend to view me as considerate and understanding ... mostly based on my whole "treat others as I want to be treated" belief (It's pretty much the only thing that stops me from being unintentionally insensitive all the live long day). I -try- to be aware. I filter things through my head before I say them. People that know me have learned that I don't usually mean harm, and shrug off some of the comments that come out wrong. Phoenity hit the nail on the head when he said we don't always realize what we say is hurtful until after it is said, and almost always follow up by introspection. In more serious conversations, I've improved on this. I'm -very- particular with my words now. So now it's usually the everyday casual conversation that I mess up on.

Here's a fun example:
(While at a Hooter's restaurant, I was joking that I should fill out an application because I was broke and for shits and giggles.... long story... alcohol was involved.... And I didn't go through with it because an ESFJ friend didn't let me. Hooray for ESFJs!)
Me: "I'm just wearing a Tee-shirt though. I think I should be dressed a little sluttier or something. Hey, Rach (My sister), let me borrow your shirt for a sec...."
[10 seconds of being stared at.]
Me: "Aw, crap."

Just a disclaimer: I don't usually put my thought process into words! So if I spoke what my real thought process would be it would be more like "I'm just wearing a Tee-shirt though. I look kinda crumby. I think I should be dressed either more slutty, or at least a little more cute. Oh... Rach's shirt is cute.... Hey, Rach, let me borrow your shirt for a sec!"

very insightful but you should be dressing more slutty.

 

[StephMC]

very insightful but you should be dressing more slutty.

I know. That would have prevented that little bit of miscommunication, huh? Jeez... why don't I think of these things?!

 

[jixmixfix]

I know. That would have prevented that little bit of miscommunication, huh? Jeez... why don't I think of these things?!

Because SPs are designed to make every spontaneous and fun even if it's unintentional it's unconscious.

 

[jixmixfix]

Because SPs are designed to make every spontaneous and fun even if it's unintentional it's unconscious.

everything*

 

[kendoiwan]

everything*

The edit button is your friend!

 

[jixmixfix]

The edit button is your friend!

 

[luminous beam]

The edit button is your friend!

lol...ain't it true.

Me: "I'm just wearing a Tee-shirt though. I think I should be dressed a little sluttier or something. Hey, Rach (My sister), let me borrow your shirt for a sec...."
[10 seconds of being stared at.]
Me: "Aw, crap."

aw lol yeah, i'm sure your sis gave you the angry stare and was probably thinking "who are you calling slut, you slut?" well haha, um better not to get too drunk around emo people imo

 

[phoenity]

steph, i don't think the reason why people get the wrong idea here is your motive and intent. the problem here is the lack of awareness and attention it takes to note what you're doing or saying and how that is making the other person feel. they're seeing it as lack of consideration from your part in that regard. however, that doesn't justify others taking it out on you if you were simply unaware of it all. it's a miss-communication. how do you solve this problem? talk about it more openly sorry, there's no way of really going around it. you either address it or ignore it. if you address it there is the possibility of resolving the issue for good. if you ignore it, it might appear to be resolved temporarily, but it'll continue to happen over and over again...or either party will cut ties and end up leaving, hurt, annoyed, confused and possibly resentful.

This is an interesting perspective.

The problem is that my conscious awareness and attention is not focused on Fe, how I'm making other people feel. That's why it's an inferior function.

Fe is subconscious, I have to consciously divert attention from one area to another, go inside my head and introspect, to consider how I'm making other people feel. And even when I do, since it is an inferior function, I'm constantly second-guessing myself because I don't actually know how I'm making other people feel. Hell, most of the time I don't even know how I feel.

So my point is that I try, but things do tend to slip past. Another thing to consider is that my most conscious functions, Ti+Se, are always the most active. Ti doesn't make consideration to feelings. It's very black and white, very objective.

Example, when Steph was at Hooters, Ti+Se determined that she needed a sluttier shirt, and Ti+Se also noticed what her sister was wearing would work better for the situation, so Ti+Se said what it said because of that, not because it had the intention of implying that her sister was a slut for wearing it. Ti+Se likely wasn't even thinking about her sister. It was objectively thinking about the shirt she happened to be wearing.

Ti never has the intent of affecting the way someone feels, either positive or negative. It just does what it does.


So what I wish people would realize about me is that, most of the time, it is never my intention to affect the way someone else feels, I am simply just thinking. But if I ever do make an attempt, Fe will always be trying to make someone else feel better.

What I would also prefer to happen is that, if anyone is ever offended by anything I ever say, all they need to do is make me aware, and I will offer my sincerest apology, because that was never my intention in the first place, and ultimately I just want everyone to do want they want, say what they want, and to be happy.

I'm just a peace-loving hippie at heart. But my exterior and personality doesn't easily reflect that.

 

[luminous beam]

Fe is subconscious, I have to consciously divert attention from one area to another, go inside my head and introspect, to consider how I'm making other people feel. And even when I do, since it is an inferior function, I'm constantly second-guessing myself because I don't actually know how I'm making other people feel. Hell, most of the time I don't even know how I feel.

So my point is that I try, but things do tend to slip past. Another thing to consider is that my most conscious functions, Ti+Se, are always the most active. Ti doesn't make consideration to feelings. It's very black and white, very objective...Ti never has the intent of affecting the way someone feels, either positive or negative. It just does what it does.

So what I wish people would realize about me is that, most of the time, it is never my intention to affect the way someone else feels, I am simply just thinking. But if I ever do make an attempt, Fe will always be trying to make someone else feel better.

What I would also prefer to happen is that, if anyone is ever offended by anything I ever say, all they need to do is make me aware, and I will offer my sincerest apology, because that was never my intention in the first place, and ultimately I just want everyone to be happy.

I'm just a peace-loving hippie at heart. But my exterior and personality doesn't easily reflect that.

I understand where you're coming from, it's hard to supervise and control a least used function. The important thing is that you're trying to get along with others who may not process information like you do. I usually remind myself that the other person doesn't think like me, even if I don't full out understand why or how they work. I usually just assume Thinker types are being objective, even though I'm very subjective...so I let a lot of things slide by and try not to take them personally. It helps when you're around other types that constantly remind you how different you are from them and vice versa.

 

[StephMC]

Ah... Well said as always, Phoenity. I especially like your analysis of my Fe slip up. An especially goofy one at that. Just out of curiosity, did you do that with a straight face?

 

[Poki]

This is an interesting perspective.

The problem is that my conscious awareness and attention is not focused on Fe, how I'm making other people feel. That's why it's an inferior function.

Fe is subconscious, I have to consciously divert attention from one area to another, go inside my head and introspect, to consider how I'm making other people feel. And even when I do, since it is an inferior function, I'm constantly second-guessing myself because I don't actually know how I'm making other people feel. Hell, most of the time I don't even know how I feel.

So my point is that I try, but things do tend to slip past. Another thing to consider is that my most conscious functions, Ti+Se, are always the most active. Ti doesn't make consideration to feelings. It's very black and white, very objective.

Example, when Steph was at Hooters, Ti+Se determined that she needed a sluttier shirt, and Ti+Se also noticed what her sister was wearing would work better for the situation, so Ti+Se said what it said because of that, not because it had the intention of implying that her sister was a slut for wearing it. Ti+Se likely wasn't even thinking about her sister. It was objectively thinking about the shirt she happened to be wearing.

Ti never has the intent of affecting the way someone feels, either positive or negative. It just does what it does.


So what I wish people would realize about me is that, most of the time, it is never my intention to affect the way someone else feels, I am simply just thinking. But if I ever do make an attempt, Fe will always be trying to make someone else feel better.

What I would also prefer to happen is that, if anyone is ever offended by anything I ever say, all they need to do is make me aware, and I will offer my sincerest apology, because that was never my intention in the first place, and ultimately I just want everyone to do want they want, say what they want, and to be happy.

I'm just a peace-loving hippie at heart. But my exterior and personality doesn't easily reflect that.

For me Se is really good at picking up changes in people. I am very perceptive as to how people change. How can you be perceptive to what people wear, but not perceptive to how they react and realize what you did? I generally know the few people I interact with enough to know that something changed in who they are. I dont trust what they say even if they say everything is good, I trust what I see. I dont have the confidence though to think that I can help change how they feel so I dont always engage when I see it.

I am use to people hiding how they feel with what they say so to me this is something that comes natural that I dont understand.

edit: This is knowledge of people hiding is from a bystandard position, not me assuming I know. It is when people say something to someone and then tell you something different. What they said to you matches up with what you saw or who they are in general better than what they said to the other person.

 

[phoenity]

For me Se is really good at picking up changes in people. I am very perceptive as to how people change. How can you be perceptive to what people wear, but not perceptive to how they react and realize what you did? I generally know the few people I interact with enough to know that something changed in who they are. I dont trust what they say even if they say everything is good, I trust what I see. I dont have the confidence though to think that I can help change how they feel so I dont always engage when I see it.

I am use to people hiding how they feel with what they say so to me this is something that comes natural that I dont understand.

I am really good at sensing changes in people, especially when interacting with them in the moment. What I'm not good at is intuiting what caused those changes.

If my action caused a sensible reaction in someone else, then yes, it can be easy and obvious, and I will do whatever I can to make it right. But then some people are very good at concealing their feelings, and react more on the inside than they do on the outside, leaving me clueless.

And that really only applies to the best case scenario of in-person interaction. I have much less to sense when communicating with people in other ways, like over internet forums for instance.

 

[Poki]

I am really good at sensing changes in people, especially when interacting with them in the moment. What I'm not good at is intuiting what caused those changes.

If my action caused a sensible reaction in someone else, then yes, it can be easy and obvious, and I will do whatever I can to make it right. But then some people are very good at concealing their feelings, and react more on the inside than they do on the outside, leaving me clueless.

And that really only applies to the best case scenario of in-person interaction. I have much less to sense when communicating with people in other ways, like over internet forums for instance.

I have become very good at picking up changes with how people feel on the inside that have learned how to conceal it by using things I pick up on the outside.

 

[Poki]

for those that are enneagram 5. Here is something about unhealthy 5s.

Unhealthy Fives may want to feel smarter than the other person, and even argue points that they do not personally agree with just to prove to themselves that they can mentally "run circles" around others. As they become less healthy, Ones become more rigid and fixed in their views about things: Fives become more uncertain, nihilistic, and afraid that they cannot arrive at any kind of meaning or truth.

 

[Domino]

I would have been disappointed to be the only sluttily dressed girl at Hooters. C'mon, Steph! Let the girls out!

 

[Domino]

I am really good at sensing changes in people, especially when interacting with them in the moment. What I'm not good at is intuiting what caused those changes.

If my action caused a sensible reaction in someone else, then yes, it can be easy and obvious, and I will do whatever I can to make it right. But then some people are very good at concealing their feelings, and react more on the inside than they do on the outside, leaving me clueless.

And that really only applies to the best case scenario of in-person interaction. I have much less to sense when communicating with people in other ways, like over internet forums for instance.

Is there not always an Se read/tell you can go on? Like subtleties -- eyes, body posture, repetition, nervous hands, etc? I can suss out a LOT from the eyes and hands, even if I know flat-out that they're lying to me. There was this one guy in particular... I could always tell when he was lying by this tiny tiny twitch and flicker around his eyes. It used to send me into a barking growling rage and no one could understand why until later when they too figured out he was lying. In the meantime, I just stood there looking crazy and overwrought.

On the web, it can be tricky for anyone. I tend to look for patterns in the piecework -- language, call/response, diction, grammar, etc. Not always enough, to be sure.

I told my INTJ bff that had I not known him IRL, I would have run away from him because he's scary, and he laughed sheepishly like "I know! Sorry!" I've seen the boy in type and he IS scary. haha!

 

[Mondo]

I would have been disappointed to be the only sluttily dressed girl at Hooters. C'mon, Steph! Let the girls out!

Send in the girls!!