[ISTJ] Understanding Male ISTJ Minds

[batumi]

Is that the one where they analzye various works of literature and fictional characters in terms of MBTI? I remember reading another book that referred to such a series. I think it was called Pygmalian something or other. Who wrote it?

My series says Stephen Montgomery. The Pygmalion Project.
(subtitled "Love and Coercion among the types", heh, heh)

Fascinating reading, if you like literature on the whole.

 

[batumi]

Or I'll say something meaning for him to get the hint and he takes what I say at face value (or pretends to as to avoid deep discussions)

 

[Cimarron]

In regards to "reading between the lines" and "taking hints":

One thing that may help is to remember that trust is important, so I trust you and don't expect you to lie to me. If you don't say what you mean directly, it could be misconstrued as lying (or something similar). Honesty is direct, with no need to beat around the bush. Dishonesty is evasive and indirect. In most cases, I'll give the benefit of the doubt, and assume there was no "hidden meaning".

So on serious matters, I expect you to be direct. On not as serious matters, you don't have to be direct, but you still run the risk of miscommunication...

When you ask a question like "Why don't you like my friend?" and I answer "I don't know" or "she's aggravating", if you feel like that answer isn't enough, then it may be that I can't really find the words to express it fully and completely. It took me a while to teach myself to do this, to search for a fundamental reason why things like that bug me, to link the pieces together inside. And then, of course, to explain it in words to the person concerned.

Still agreeing with what's been said about relationships in recent posts, pretty much on the mark.

 

[batumi]

In regards to "reading between the lines" and "taking hints":

One thing that may help is to remember that trust is important, so I trust you and don't expect you to lie to me. If you don't say what you mean directly, it could be misconstrued as lying (or something similar). Honesty is direct, with no need to beat around the bush. Dishonesty is evasive and indirect. In most cases, I'll give the benefit of the doubt, and assume there was no "hidden meaning".

So on serious matters, I expect you to be direct. On not as serious matters, you don't have to be direct, but you still run the risk of miscommunication...

Good points and thanks for sharing them.
I have found with my current ISTJ that being calm and direct is normally
the best approach.
Now, tell us how to evoke passion and romance from men of your type.

 

[PinkIceTD]

Good points and thanks for sharing them.
I have found with my current ISTJ that being calm and direct is normally
the best approach.
Now, tell us how to evoke passion and romance from men of your type.

Yeah or is it only savings accounts and spread sheets that do it for you? j/k

 

[batumi]

Yeah or is it only savings accounts and spread sheets that do it for you? j/k

Perhaps Cimarron will agree to some personal counseling sessions to assist us.
We could ask Beat to help out too.

 

[Cimarron]

Good points and thanks for sharing them.
I have found with my current ISTJ that being calm and direct is normally
the best approach.
Now, tell us how to evoke passion and romance from men of your type.

Oh and as an addition to the "trust" thing, it works in reverse as well. This is probably pretty true for everyone, but if I tell you exactly how I feel, tell you everything I can, and then you still try to dig for deeper meaning in my words--that can imply that you don't believe me, that you don't trust me. And that's major. It's probably not news, but I thought I'd throw it in there.

Hmm...I don't know. That one's tougher to figure out. How to get an ISTJ passionate? I know I've gotten into it before, but I can't remember how (been a long time since I've had a girlfriend, truthfully). There's always something, though. It can be the simple things, like making a favorite meal--that's one of my favorites. But that wouldn't be "passionate", that'd just be full of the "warm fuzzy" feeling. Not quite as strong and lively. I'm really not the person to answer this question...

 

[batumi]

Hmm...I don't know. That one's tougher to figure out. How to get an ISTJ passionate? I know I've gotten into it before, but I can't remember how (been a long time since I've had a girlfriend, truthfully). There's always something, though. It can be the simple things, like making a favorite meal--that's one of my favorites. But that wouldn't be "passionate", that'd just be full of the "warm fuzzy" feeling. Not quite as strong and lively. I'm really not the person to answer this question...

Oh we will take warm-fuzzy, really. With gratitude.
Anything that gets us to warm-fuzzy is also helpful.
Are you saying when someone makes you a meal?

 

[Cimarron]

I'm talking specifically about favorite food, the one I never get to have. Making or getting, I suppose. But that's way too specific to work for everybody. We should wait for other people to give more advice in that area(at least I hope they do...no pressure, guys!).

Maybe trying new things together, but nothing too wild. I'm too much of a beginner at relationships in general to give you any sure advice.

 

[2XtremeENFP]

Yeah! That definitely happens to me and the ISTJs, I know. I just don't ask anymore. I think it's cause they do not understand or have the vocabulary for it. Additionally, it would take a lot of energy to come up with an answer. It's annoying for both parties

hahahaha.... I read somewhere that relationships between ENFP's and ISTJ's are usually successful because both parties are equally annoyed by one another.

 

[batumi]

Oh and as an addition to the "trust" thing, it works in reverse as well. This is probably pretty true for everyone, but if I tell you exactly how I feel, tell you everything I can, and then you still try to dig for deeper meaning in my words--that can imply that you don't believe me, that you don't trust me. And that's major. It's probably not news, but I thought I'd throw it in there.

I do see what you said above. And it is something I learned to do recently. Thank you.

I think what is hardest for us NFs in relationships with your type is the
apparent lack of concern about the relationship.
Because we tend to live it, you see, and your type apparently puts it on a
back burner and has a life outside of the relationship.
For instance my ISTJ is away at work right now, far away, and seems
not much concerned about me, I think/feel. He said he will call me when he returns, and that's that.
I have slowly trained him over the last six months to at least leave me a phone message now and then, so he is improving.
But if not for that, I doubt that I would hear from him until he got everything done that he needs to get done, including all household chores, etc.
and shopping, and anything else that might possibly need to get done in the next year, and THEN, he will call me and schedule some leisure time with me.

For me, and for most NFs I think, I would be calling him first and at least scheduling the time and then worrying about the other stuff.
Does this make sense to you? And thanks for your helpful input.

 

[PinkIceTD]

I do see what you said above. And it is something I learned to do recently. Thank you.

I think what is hardest for us NFs in relationships with your type is the
apparent lack of concern about the relationship.
Because we tend to live it, you see, and your type apparently puts it on a
back burner and has a life outside of the relationship.
For instance my ISTJ is away at work right now, far away, and seems
not much concerned about me, I think/feel. He said he will call me when he returns, and that's that.
I have slowly trained him over the last six months to at least leave me a phone message now and then, so he is improving.
But if not for that, I doubt that I would hear from him until he got everything done that he needs to get done, including all household chores, etc.
and shopping, and anything else that might possibly need to get done in the next year, and THEN, he will call me and schedule some leisure time with me.

For me, and for most NFs I think, I would be calling him first and at least scheduling the time and then worrying about the other stuff.
Does this make sense to you? And thanks for your helpful input.

its like we're talking about the same man...

 

[Cimarron]

Hehe, I do know what you're talking about, because I kind of do it to everyone when I'm busy, unfortunately. Just trying to take my work seriously. If it helps, remember that he is getting his work out of the way first so that he can spend time with you. (Giving him the benefit of the doubt,) his goal is not to get mired down in work. He may get annoyed when you call him to see how he's doing while he's in the middle of working, but that's because you are throwing him off course from his ultimate goal.

I guess I see relationships and love as a state of being, not a moving, breathing thing. At worst, this can make it seem...static. I wouldn't really say that I "put it on a back burner", though it's true that I don't like a relationship to take over my whole life. The times I've fallen for someone, I've fallen hard, I know that much. I made it clear that I was giving her my devotion, maybe because that's what I would have wanted most. And I'm sure it was appreciated, but by itself it's usually not enough.

 

[quietgirl]

I do see what you said above. And it is something I learned to do recently. Thank you.

I think what is hardest for us NFs in relationships with your type is the
apparent lack of concern about the relationship.
Because we tend to live it, you see, and your type apparently puts it on a
back burner and has a life outside of the relationship.
For instance my ISTJ is away at work right now, far away, and seems
not much concerned about me, I think/feel. He said he will call me when he returns, and that's that.
I have slowly trained him over the last six months to at least leave me a phone message now and then, so he is improving.
But if not for that, I doubt that I would hear from him until he got everything done that he needs to get done, including all household chores, etc.
and shopping, and anything else that might possibly need to get done in the next year, and THEN, he will call me and schedule some leisure time with me.

For me, and for most NFs I think, I would be calling him first and at least scheduling the time and then worrying about the other stuff.
Does this make sense to you? And thanks for your helpful input.

I'm goingto read through this thread some more, but I wanted to write a quick comment cause I noticed it's coming from another INFJ...

I live with a wonderful ISFJ with a borderline F/T so he seems to exhibit a lot of ISTJ traits as well. Awesome, haha. (I'm kidding!)

Ya gotta understand that while our life may be structured around the relationship, HIS life is structured around his daily routine with the relationship being PART of the routine. The routine comes first. For example, during the course of our relationship, he had a period of time where he was out of work. During that time, I was working my little butt off. We share a car but we also live within walking distance of my job. Sometimes I'd text him to see if he could pick me up from work when I had originally planned to walk home. This would throw him all out of sorts because his daily routine was not structured around me needing a ride & I was completely throwing off his schedule. In my mind, he didn't have a job & was (in my opinion) not doing anything as important as I was doing - plus how dare he make the woman he loves walk home when he could pick me up! I had to realize that it had nothing to do with me, my feelings, or anything personal. His daily routine of getting up, going for a run, cleaning the apartment, and then going to the gym to lift was of value to him. Another example is that if he's in the middle of whatever it is that he does, I can't expect a text or phone call.

I also wanted to comment on the thinking things through. Don't bother trying to convince an ISJ to do something immediately or feel a certain way. It just builds resentment, even if you have no ill intentions. I've learned to throw things out there, let my boyfriend mull it over w/o bugging him, let him draw his own conclusions, listen to what he has to say about it when he's ready to talk, and then just ride out the cranky adjustment period if it involves a big change. In general, he makes really good decisions and is considerate to my needs - I just can't force it to happen.

I noticed that you mentioned towards the beginning of this thread that your ISTJ had some bad experiences with people leaving him because he's too busy. ISJ's in general are strongly rooted in past experiences, so while you know yourself better than he does - his experiences are very valid to him & he most likely believes that it is a good indicator of the future. This was the hardest nut to crack with my boyfriend. I had to show him through my actions that I was different from his past relationships, which wasn't entirely fair to me but I had to accept that it had nothing to do with me. If we get in an argument & I'm acting blatantly out of line, I prepare myself for a couple days of evaluation to "prove" to him that I am not going to do it again. This sort of stuff doesn't happen much anymore now that we've been together awhile, but at the beginning of the relationship, it definitely made things difficult & I felt judged often. However, when I brought it to his attention, he was entirely apologetic and had no idea that his normal behavior was causing me to feel that way.

I guess my best advice would be not to take everything they say or do personally. My boyfriend is a wonderful man & treats me very well. I had to accept that he's pessimistic, always believes he's right about the things he knows & experiences (and normally is - which I hate!), has a bit of arrogance about him that is completely unintentional (He actually felt awful when I brought it to his attention), and cannot make an on the spot decision to save his life. Once I realized that none of this had anything to do with how he feels about me and our relationship, I started feeling a lot less worried and things between us got better than ever.

 

[quietgirl]

In regards to "reading between the lines" and "taking hints":

One thing that may help is to remember that trust is important, so I trust you and don't expect you to lie to me. If you don't say what you mean directly, it could be misconstrued as lying (or something similar). Honesty is direct, with no need to beat around the bush. Dishonesty is evasive and indirect. In most cases, I'll give the benefit of the doubt, and assume there was no "hidden meaning".

So on serious matters, I expect you to be direct. On not as serious matters, you don't have to be direct, but you still run the risk of miscommunication...

When you ask a question like "Why don't you like my friend?" and I answer "I don't know" or "she's aggravating", if you feel like that answer isn't enough, then it may be that I can't really find the words to express it fully and completely. It took me a while to teach myself to do this, to search for a fundamental reason why things like that bug me, to link the pieces together inside. And then, of course, to explain it in words to the person concerned.

Still agreeing with what's been said about relationships in recent posts, pretty much on the mark.

Yea, this makes me want to pull out my hair.

I very much agree! I'm fairly direct, but I speak rather metaphorically and read into things a bunch. It's the N/S difference. My boyfriend is extremely practical and sees things in more of a black & white way. We've had uite a few arguments because my answer for something was a "novel" (as he'd say) over a simple, straight to the point, practical answer. He also views the wordy-ness as being dishonest. As he's said a million times - if you have to think about it or explain it, you're lying. I don't always agree, but I can see how he sees it that way. To save myself the headache, I just get straight to the point now and if I feel it needs explanation, I approach it later on. He's also gotten better with not making snap judgements based on my wording. It was valuable to understand this fundamental difference, though.

 

[quietgirl]

Possibly. Except he might see you as the one who destabilized it all to start with. Because you don't play by the rules he sees as rational.

That Ne inferior is very wicked for untrained ISTJs and ISFJs. They can start projecting wildly and have lots of paranoid ideas about what might happen, rather than more plausible iNtuitions.

Anyway, I'm sorry, I was still thinking in terms of me and not in terms of ENFP when I was responding, and so maybe I was not addressing ENFP-oriented issues.

I just wanted to add to this a bit...

Before I met my boyfriend, he had a very stable world. He jokingly compares our relationship to the movie "Along came Polly" because when I came around, I completely shook up his world. As a result, we went through a bad patch when he was getting adjusted to the change. Think of a little kid who is forced to do something against his or her will. They pitch a tantrum, cry, lock themselves in their room, and then get over it and embrace the change. It's kinda like that, but not as extreme.

He had always provided himself with security, but after I came in like tornado and uprooted everything, he became way more dependent on me for security because he's in a period of adjusting to change & I essentially took away his personal security. It didn't help that his last girlfriend was very similar to him and never disrupted his "world".

Now that we're adjusted to a new "world" and we live together (which was another adjustment, haha), things are wonderful again. He's become more flexible because from what he says, he's "taken into account my eccentricness as part of his daily living situation". I consider that a compliment, haha. He's also regaining personal security because he's used to the way things are in his world now - which is a huge relief to me. I still have to push him to do things out of his comfort zone and I still have to force-feed him new foods (haha), but at least he knows that change won't kill him.

 

[batumi]

Well yeah at first, it was like we were clashing all the time because he wouldn't talk and he said I asked too many questions lol...

I missed this on the first read. I got the same story from mine initially.
I believe he told me I "pry".

 

[batumi]

Thank you Cimarron for your time and efforts to explain. I really appreciate you!!

 

[Bella]

There's a whole lotta 'preciatin' goin' on today...

(cancels out those hate threads.)

 

[batumi]

Now that we're adjusted to a new "world" and we live together (which was another adjustment, haha), things are wonderful again.

Thank you also for your time and efforts to help me understand.
We have been talking about living together, but not until next summer.

I am pretty nervous about the idea, mostly because it would
be my moving into his home. Whenever he brings it up, I always
silently thank my lease for holding me where I am until summer.

What kinds of obstacles were there when you began living together
and what helped to overcome them?