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Trump vs. Biden

ceecee

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Alaska poll: Trump +3

What is both competitive and basically within the margin of error. (2016 ended with Trump +15)



In my book if Biden becomes quite involved in Covid response that would basically be a checkmate. Creating the donation program that will provide the money so that the poor can get the masks. Defining concrete measures how to keep the economy afloat. Pushing medical truths into the public discourse. Etc.

At this point, his whole policy recommendations release is a smart move in the same way. He could do much more since the current administration isn't doing anything but the right wing media will scream about a shadow government if he goes too far in their opinion. Including a COVID response right now but I assume that means doing anything remotely related to helping regular non-wealthy Americans .
 

Maou

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Anyone's thoughts on Kanye running possibly affecting Biden's chances? I think Kanye can take a lot of the black vote, and if he pairs up with Elon Musk for VP, (I don't think he announced his VP, but I do know he is working with Elon). They would even put a dent in Trump's base. It might make it possible that no one wins too. Trump will remain president in several senarios involving no result, or contested result.

This will be an interesting election.
 

Virtual ghost

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At this point, his whole policy recommendations release is a smart move in the same way. He could do much more since the current administration isn't doing anything but the right wing media will scream about a shadow government if he goes too far in their opinion. Including a COVID response right now but I assume that means doing anything remotely related to helping regular non-wealthy Americans .



Well, those will be going after him no matter what and a third of the country surely wouldn't vote for him. Therefore if he can actively help the majority that can't really hurt him if the results are on the money. Maybe it is cultural on my side but the political opposition that is waiting it's "turn" shouldn't just sit and wait for debates or whatever. After all my local one just got a historic "slap" for doing just that. These are simply the times for actions and decisions.
 

Jonny

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Anyone's thoughts on Kanye running possibly affecting Biden's chances? I think Kanye can take a lot of the black vote, and if he pairs up with Elon Musk for VP, (I don't think he announced his VP, but I do know he is working with Elon). They would even put a dent in Trump's base. It might make it possible that no one wins too. Trump will remain president in several senarios involving no result, or contested result.

This will be an interesting election.

I would be really surprised if he made any noticeable dent in Biden's support. Kanye is wholly unqualified and unfit to be POTUS, and actually has more support from Republicans than Democrats (given his historical relationship with the current POTUS). And, per a recent tweet from Musk, it seems unlikely he would agree to be Kanye's Veep considering the latter's antivax, antiabortion stances. It is possible he could poach some similar-minded folk from Trump, however. Assuming he truly is "done with Trump" as he claims, he is likely representative of a similar group of people who have decided Trump is no longer fit to lead.

Remember, Trump won the 2016 election through very slim margins in states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin, and he actually lost the popular vote. And since then, the only other major election was in 2018 when the anti-Trump vote was out in full force. I think people ascribe more political potency to Trump than the 2016 and subsequent election results support. Yes he won and that cannot be ignored. But he didn't win by much, and was running against a historically unpopular candidate. You may think that Biden is just as bad as Clinton, and I'm sure in certain circles that's probably true, but generally it isn't. Trump also ran on an anti-establishment, anti-globalist agenda, and promised to "Make America Great Again." And rightly or wrongly, nobody looking around at the current state of things thinks that they're better than they were when Obama left office.

What Trump has done, however, is change the discussion. Biden just released an economic plan that is very Trumpian in some ways (enough that Trump is accusing him of plagiarizing). So Trump will have a difficult time painting Biden as some establishment Globalist, despite the latter's long history in politics.

I think this election will ultimately be decided by the extent to which Republicans can reduce voter turnout, whether by making it harder to vote or creating a feeling of hopelessness in people so that they choose not to vote.
 

Maou

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I would be really surprised if he made any noticeable dent in Biden's support. Kanye is wholly unqualified and unfit to be POTUS, and actually has more support from Republicans than Democrats (given his historical relationship with the current POTUS). And, per a recent tweet from Musk, it seems unlikely he would agree to be Kanye's Veep considering the latter's antivax, antiabortion stances. It is possible he could poach some similar-minded folk from Trump, however. Assuming he truly is "done with Trump" as he claims, he is likely representative of a similar group of people who have decided Trump is no longer fit to lead.

I think this election will ultimately be decided by the extent to which Republicans can reduce voter turnout, whether by making it harder to vote or creating a feeling of hopelessness in people so that they choose not to vote.

I don't think he is done with Trump in the sense of dislike, more like he wants to be considered himself, and not in connection to him (a Trump supporter). I mean, he thinks God sent Trump. I skimmed the Forbes article for that. His creation of a new party was also interesting. I actually like some of his ideas, but some of them are a bit extreme. He seemed to mix up vaccines with mandatory microchips (a conspiracy btw), which I would be against as well. Just not vaccines. I do however, feel if a corona vaccine came out, it be optional. I believe in people's right to choose. He is very essentric in the way he seems to bounce between political sides. One thing that I admired him for, was getting angry at Democrats for taking the black vote for granted. I feel for blacks who are treated like shit for voicing their opinions, and being called uncle toms or house ni****s etc for going against the democratic platform.

Also, a lot of people vote based on who they like, not their policies. I can see Kanye benefitting from his charisma, not unlike Trump. I don't know many poor people who even look up policies. It is also the reason it is so hard to poll for certain uneducated communities. As most polls are generally based around college educated people. Or so I hear.

What do you think of that famous poll (forget its name) that predicted 25/27 presidential elections giving Trump a 90+% chance of winning?

Also unrelated, but if you had to vote for a conservative, who do you like?
 

Jonny

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I don't think he is done with Trump in the sense of dislike, more like he wants to be considered himself, and not in connection to him (a Trump supporter). I mean, he thinks God sent Trump. I skimmed the Forbes article for that. His creation of a new party was also interesting. I actually like some of his ideas, but some of them are a bit extreme. He seemed to mix up vaccines with mandatory microchips (a conspiracy btw), which I would be against as well. Just not vaccines. I do however, feel if a corona vaccine came out, it be optional. I believe in people's right to choose. He is very essentric in the way he seems to bounce between political sides. One thing that I admired him for, was getting angry at Democrats for taking the black vote for granted. I feel for blacks who are treated like shit for voicing their opinions, and being called uncle toms or house ni****s etc for going against the democratic platform.

Also, a lot of people vote based on who they like, not their policies. I can see Kanye benefitting from his charisma, not unlike Trump. I don't know many poor people who even look up policies. It is also the reason it is so hard to poll for certain uneducated communities. As most polls are generally based around college educated people. Or so I hear.

What do you think of that famous poll (forget its name) that predicted 25/27 presidential elections giving Trump a 90+% chance of winning?

Also unrelated, but if you had to vote for a conservative, who do you like?

I'm not sure, would you consider Romney a conservative? Amash? I think the hard part is unwinding particular belief-sets that are linked with many conservatives (very Christian, anti Gay, etc.). And in the Trump era many conservatives have lost what I perceived as their greatest perceived strengths: dignity, moral clarity, preservation of social norms and institutions. In many ways, I'm a "small c" conservative. I would never personally get a tattoo or piercing. I don't do drugs. I was an Eagle Scout. I believe there is great benefit to marriage, and to preserving the nuclear family. I think abortion is a bad thing that shouldn't be celebrated, though I think that it is necessary to allow a woman to choose for herself. I value freedom and liberty as fundamental to human dignity, and I see their practical value in promoting progress. I could go on.

I'm not familiar with the poll you referenced, so you'd need to provide a link or something.
 

Maou

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I'm not sure, would you consider Romney a conservative? Amash? I think the hard part is unwinding particular belief-sets that are linked with many conservatives (very Christian, anti Gay, etc.). And in the Trump era many conservatives have lost what I perceived as their greatest perceived strengths: dignity, moral clarity, preservation of social norms and institutions. In many ways, I'm a "small c" conservative. I would never personally get a tattoo or piercing. I don't do drugs. I was an Eagle Scout. I believe there is great benefit to marriage, and to preserving the nuclear family. I think abortion is a bad thing that shouldn't be celebrated, though I think that it is necessary to allow a woman to choose for herself. I value freedom and liberty as fundamental to human dignity, and I see their practical value in promoting progress. I could go on.

I'm not familiar with the poll you referenced, so you'd need to provide a link or something.

Trump has 91% chance of winning second term, professor’s model predicts | The Independent

I voted for Romney, but I never liked him. I feel he cares more about catering to Democrats favor and career, than supporting his own party. A lot of Republicans do that, which is why I call a lot of Republicans spineless. Some people just can't take the heat, and or they are bought out to put on a political sideshow. I also think a good majority of Republicans and Democrats are actually on the same side, the corperate lobbyist side. Romney being part of that. To me he represents the hawkish status quo Republicans that got us in all the stupid wars across the world, just to maintain control of the oil cartels.

I can however, understand your perspective. You see him as a guy who stood up against his party to support what he believed in, I can respect that.

Also what you said you like about conservatives is pretty much what I like about them. I also feel they have lost their founding as well. At this point, I don't really feel any politician has America's best interest in mind anymore. It is just more chrony capitalism that is based around a stock market AI that will inevitably destroy the West.
 

Coriolis

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I'm not sure, would you consider Romney a conservative? Amash? I think the hard part is unwinding particular belief-sets that are linked with many conservatives (very Christian, anti Gay, etc.). And in the Trump era many conservatives have lost what I perceived as their greatest perceived strengths: dignity, moral clarity, preservation of social norms and institutions. In many ways, I'm a "small c" conservative. I would never personally get a tattoo or piercing. I don't do drugs. I was an Eagle Scout. I believe there is great benefit to marriage, and to preserving the nuclear family. I think abortion is a bad thing that shouldn't be celebrated, though I think that it is necessary to allow a woman to choose for herself. I value freedom and liberty as fundamental to human dignity, and I see their practical value in promoting progress. I could go on.
I agree with much of the above. I was more willing to support conservatives before they started pandering to Christian fundamentalists, when they focused on fiscal responsibility, promoting business and innovation, strong national defense, etc. For instance, to me, gun rights and reproductive rights are two sides of the same coin, and anyone who claims to favor less government should support both. It is this sort of inconsistency that puts me off of many conservative politicians. They clamor for "less goverment", but usually that means less government for corporations, and more for individuals.
 

Maou

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I agree with much of the above. I was more willing to support conservatives before they started pandering to Christian fundamentalists, when they focused on fiscal responsibility, promoting business and innovation, strong national defense, etc. For instance, to me, gun rights and reproductive rights are two sides of the same coin, and anyone who claims to favor less government should support both. It is this sort of inconsistency that puts me off of many conservative politicians. They clamor for "less goverment", but usually that means less government for corporations, and more for individuals.

Yeah I see pro-choice, pro-guns, and the ability to turn away guests at your cake store if you dislike/disagree with what they stand for as all the same right. I even support people's right to be stupid. Sure it is a double edged sword, but that flexibility is important for dealing with the unexpected.
 

Lark

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A friend of mine who is an eco-socialist has said for years that the Democratic Party in the US only exists to hand power to the Republicans and to be honest with the whole choice of Biden rather than Bernie I'm beginning to think he could be right about it.
 

Virtual ghost

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A friend of mine who is an eco-socialist has said for years that the Democratic Party in the US only exists to hand power to the Republicans and to be honest with the whole choice of Biden rather than Bernie I'm beginning to think he could be right about it.



Maybe.
But I think it is more likely that currently both parties are fundamentally made of the same thing. Therefore usually it doesn't matter that much who really wins.
 

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Yeah, I'm not so sure about that model. He isn't very transparent about what his inputs are, or how the model is constructed. He first started publishing his predictions in the 1996 election, and his "model" was right about 85% of the time. The claim that his model predicted the last 25/27 elections correctly is pretty meaningless. The reason is because he used 21 of those results in building his model in the first place (all elections prior to 1996). It's how models work, generally. You use historical data and results to develop a model that will use current data to predict a future result.

Here are some of his claims:

The Coronavirus outbreak appears not to have damaged Trump’s re-election prospects. To the contrary, his job approval rating ticked up and still holds at 49% in the May Gallup Poll.

Trump's approval now sits at 38%.

In fact, the battle against the virus may help his re-election prospects by casting Trump as a wartime president, as happened with other presidents.

This is a forgone conclusion, I think. It did not.

This [wartime president shtick] may also help mitigate electoral damage from the economic fallout such as over 30 million losing their job.

Again, I think not. If anything, it made it worse.


The Media-ite interview says the following:

The model calculates a candidate’s chance of winning based on their success in early presidential nominating contests, putting former Vice President Joe Biden at a severe disadvantage because of crushing losses in his party’s first two presidential nominating contests. Norpoth said his model succeeds by placing an emphasis on how much enthusiasm candidates are able to generate early in the nominating process, and by discounting public opinion surveys.

If this is true, then the crux of the 2020 prediction is based on the fact that Biden didn't do well in early contests. This seems dubious on its face.

Also, I note that in 2016 he said the following:

“Trump beats Hillary 54.7 percent to 45.3 percent [of the popular vote]. This is almost too much to believe.” Norpoth said, with a few members of the audience laughing nervously. “The probability of that [outcome] is almost complete certainty, 97 percent. It’s almost ‘Take it to the bank.’ ”

Think about that for a moment. He predicted with 97% certainty that Trump would get 54.7% of the vote to Hillary's 45.3%. That's Trump +9.4%. The final result was 48.2% for Clinton and 46.1% for Trump. That's Clinton +2.1%.

While his topline prediction for 2016 happened to be right, he was exceptionally far off on the popular vote.

Here's how the polls have fared over the last 30 years:

9zqLRU2.png


The polls seemed to miss the mark for a few reasons. First, they were biased in favor of Clinton by about 2-3%. Second, he had an unusually high electoral college advantage of ~3%. This effectively resulted in a 5-6% swing from what the polls showed. Trump would likewise need a series of things to go well for him for him to win this time around.

The 2020 section is there for illustration. Obviously there isn't a final result, but what we can note is that polls were 2.2% better for Trump throughout the year than they are now. And, if we compare the current national polls with the current tipping point state polls, we see an electoral college advantage of about 2.3%, which is roughly in line with what it was last time, with a modest reversion to neutral.
 

Virtual ghost

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Poll: Florida, Biden +10




I even made my prediction for the map. It is educated guess and it should generally hold if something radical doesn't happen.


 

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ceecee

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From today...

NEW
[MENTION=32271]Chan[/MENTION]gePolls
/
@CNBC
Poll (7/10-12):

#Arizona:
Biden 51% (+6)
Trump 45%
.
#Florida:
Biden 50% (+7)
Trump 43%
.
#Wisconsin:
Biden 48% (+6)
Trump 42%
.
#Pennsylvania:
Biden 50% (+8)
Trump 42%
.
#Michigan:
Biden 48% (+6)
Trump 42%
.
North Carolina:
Biden 47% (+1)
Trump 46%
 
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