To Small Dog Haters

[Amargith]

Companionship and love is useless?

Apparently.



*goes and snuggles her hand-raised adorably clueless but utterly charismatic and purry kitty*

 

[HongDou]

*goes and snuggles her hand-raised adorably clueless but utterly charismatic and purry kitty*

*snuggles his 13" conniving but cuddly beagle*

 

[skylights]

I wouldn't call myself a small dog hater, but I have disliked some small dogs in the past for being very high-strung and untrained or poorly trained. My best friend in elementary school had a Yorkie that was so anxious, if you as much as said "hi" to it, it would pee on the floor. I think your vet's a dick, though. As for the postman, it's not fair of an owner to let its pet get in other people's space without checking with them first. Sometimes pet owners who really dote on their pets - a category many small dog owners fall into - seem to feel like it's their God-given right for you to worship their pet as much as they do.

 

[Galena]

* Small dogs tend to be yappy. This is often an overcompensation for their size. It's about bluffing you're more vicious than you look, in order to not end up on the bottom rank of the hierarchy. That and many of them have been specifically bred to be watch dogs - the way [MENTION=4]cafe[/MENTION] uses her dog - not guard dogs, which is where their yappy nature is put to good use

* Small dogs tend to be more ill-mannered due to pampering. Small dogs often look 'adorable' and physically have those really big eyes in a small smooshy face which triggers our nurturing side. It's a little trick Mother Nature uses to make sure we take care of our infants instead of eat it. It's basically a young animals defense mechanism in guilt tripping adults to take care of. It's better known as the 'D'awwwwwwwwwww'- effect you also see in kittens, bunnies, etc. Unfortunately, this leads to people not being able to say no to adult dogs who of course manipulate the situation the way any spoiled brat would. Add to that the smaller size and the fact that it doesn't have that big an impact when they 'misbehave' and yeah..you can end up with a seriously spoiled brat. It's kind of like how people will let a kitten bite their hands and feet as it doesn't hurt that much, then put down the cat for 'being aggressive' aka doing what it was taught when its adult coz then it fucking hurts.

* Men especially feel ridiculous holding the leash of a walking 'dust ruffle' (common nick name name for a Shi Tsu, Laso or York terrier at my parents place), ime. Even more so when it's their gf's dog. They prefer a dog who looks and can be threatening as they value those aspects in themselves or want them projected onto themselves. You see the same kind of projection in men who will adopt a male dominant pit bull, refuse to neuter him coz they over identify with their dog, and then have their spouse or girlfriend live in terror and under the rule of said dog as he considers him above her in the hierarchy and she is to listen to him - and get pissed when you suggest that the dog would be a lot happier without that sex drive he aint allowed to use. But you see the same with women who value 'being strong' and therefore consider having a little pooch too girly which is a stereotype they don't care to associate with - and the fact that Paris Hilton introduced the concept of Purse Pooches doesn't help with that disdain for little dogs that can't do anything for themselves.

* Lastly, toy dogs are sheerly for 'pet' purposes in many people's eyes. They're like a living doll, cute, adorable, and entertaining - and often get pampered in that way. It is easier to...take big dogs with 'serious jobs' more..well, seriously, I guess. The same seems true in human society, after all. Some entertainers may make ten times what a CEO makes, but most people will automatically consider the CEO top dog. An entertainer is after all..well, just an entertainer. A CEO concerns himself with serious business, supposedly. Starting a business is courageous, can be reckless, but is considered a risk worth taking and praised in society. Pursuing a career as an artist otoh is often considered frivolous or code for 'lazy' or 'floundering' as well as living in Lala land. The same rules for respect appear to be true for toy dogs vs work dogs.

These fascinate me because they would read just as coherently if all references to dogs were replaced with human beings, which you get into in the last bullet point. Small dogs with these flaws evoke human qualities that we don't respect. That is, the hate potentially can be the other side of the anthropomorphizing coin, on the "heads" side of which are people who treat their purse dogs like children.

I'd rather have a cat, which is probably why I like dogs closer to their size. I like a pet that I can hold. But small dogs also seem easier to keep clean than big ones, and certainly to transport. I'd go for one that is quieter and gentler - they do exist. The King Charles Spaniel is one example of a very mellow breed, if you're into breeds. Really, the cat or dog for me might not look how I expected them to because the most important thing to me when looking for a pet is to give a loving home to a friend I made, and the click of compatibility you feel with the right animal isn't predictable by looks alone, but this thread is about size preference.

Companionship and love is useless?

Yeah, I'm in this camp. *misses my spoiled kitty*

 

[Habba]

There you go! Are you sure you're not an ISTJ?

Wait, what!? I'm an ISTJ and I love small dogs (over large breeds)!

 

[Habba]

Fwiw, Cesar Milan is a controversial character in animal training/behaviorism circles. His methods have been described as antiquated and downright cruel in some cases - though he seems to be willing to take risks no other dog trainer would - like working with cases of severe aggression. And he has had a lot of success there.

If I remember correctly, Cesar was invited to speak at some dog handling and behaviour congress here in Finland, but it caused such an uproar in local handlers (due to the said methods) that the invitation was cancelled.

Small dogs tend to be more ill-mannered due to pampering.

Raising a well behaving dog is rigorous training from day 1, through all the years you're going to be together

Men especially feel ridiculous holding the leash of a walking 'dust ruffle'.

I hate that. I hate men who are uncertain of their identity to the point they have need to surround themselves with dangrous things (fast cars, motocycles, weapons, etc). Here's a picture of me and our Lancashire Heeler(it weights about 6kg or 13lbs)!


I personally like this breed a lot, (It's not recognized as a breed in every country, but here it is). The fur is straight and thick, easy to keep clean. They are muscular and have no excessive skin. They are naturally quite playful but saucy when needed.

Last fall we went to visit Rome in Italy and noticed an interesting twist in how people treat dogs. They are allowed to go to shops and cafeteria with others, but on the other hand almost all the dogs we saw seemed to suffer from bad hips. We visited couple of dog accessory stores and were surprised to see that almost half the store was about fancy clothing while toy section was almost non-existent. Here in Finland we can't take dogs with us almost anywhere (some busses allow it while trains have separate compartment for pets), but shopping malls, stores, restaurants, etc are strictly off-limit. However, there are extensive selection of toys, training equipment and food for dogs in almost any shopping mall or grocery store.

 

[Evo]

Many reasons

I have known 2 dogs (not my own) that are small, that I've liked. Ever.

I don't like small dogs in general cause of their owners. I don't like the materialistic way people carry them around like an accessory. As if the dog is an object. And I especially don't like that they nip and bark for no reason.

If you're gonna get a dog, train the dog.

When I see a dog with bad manners, it just reminds me how lazy and stupid people actually are.

I also have been bitten by small dogs, cause they're nervous. I find nervousness in a dog to be annoying.

That is what Cesar teaches btws....that they're nervous...and he's right. They bark out of fear.

What ever that guy did to your pup in the OP...he did it wrong. Dogs have a different mentality then us, and they have a hierarchy that you need to understand before you get a dog....or the dog will growl at you if you're by their food, they will growl at you if you don't give them their toy, and they wont respect you.

So really...it's the lack of respect that I see that the dog doesn't have. And it's because someone thought it was cute, and didn't think about the dog's happiness or the surrounding people.

Also I go to the park with my dog and every SINGLE TIME, all the little ass dogs...hump my dog.

If they have been domesticated properly then I have no problem with any dog. If they haven't then I don't hate the dog...the dog is innocent, I hate the owner.

And it is hate.

Fwiw, Cesar Milan is a controversial character in animal training/behaviorism circles. His methods have been described as antiquated and downright cruel in some cases - though he seems to be willing to take risks no other dog trainer would - like working with cases of severe aggression. And he has had a lot of success there.

The most vital point of critique he gets however is that while his techniques may work for him - they aren't for laymen to use. In the hands of a laymen or an amateur, they are downright dangerous and harmful to both humans and dogs. And unfortunately, due to his show, many people who don't know what they're doing copy him. I worked closely with vets for a couple of years and took some animal behaviour classes myself, with a focus on felines - lemme tell you that vets should stick to their specialty or get schooling. I remember one of our vets not even realising he had to test the urine of a cat who was avoiding their litter tray for crystals or infection and just sending the customer home with a feliway - a band aid and ineffective without treatment either physical or behavioral. That was the extent of his interest and expertise in animal behaviour. He was an amazing animal dentist and radiologist though - his field of expertise.

Yea, I mean I don't know about all the controversy. I have no idea what the guy does off the camera. But I don't think people understand his intent. The way it comes across to me when he's talking, it sounds more like he's getting into the dog's mentality and trying to get to the root of the problem. Where people are just trying to find a quick fix....which doesn't work. Just my opinion though.

 

[Mal12345]

What ever that guy did to your pup in the OP...he did it wrong. Dogs have a different mentality then us, and they have a hierarchy that you need to understand before you get a dog....or the dog will growl at you if you're by their food, they will growl at you if you don't give them their toy, and they wont respect you.

The Millan technique is designed to teach dogs about hierarchy and respect - to show them who's boss. He can do that to a pit bull or rotty puppy all he wants. But my puppy was already aware of hierarchy.

 

[Amargith]

Many reasons

I have known 2 dogs (not my own) that are small, that I've liked. Ever.

I don't like small dogs in general cause of their owners. I don't like the materialistic way people carry them around like an accessory. As if the dog is an object. And I especially don't like that they nip and bark for no reason.

If you're gonna get a dog, train the dog.

When I see a dog with bad manners, it just reminds me how lazy and stupid people actually are.

I also have been bitten by small dogs, cause they're nervous. I find nervousness in a dog to be annoying.

That is what Cesar teaches btws....that they're nervous...and he's right. They bark out of fear.

What ever that guy did to your pup in the OP...he did it wrong. Dogs have a different mentality then us, and they have a hierarchy that you need to understand before you get a dog....or the dog will growl at you if you're by their food, they will growl at you if you don't give them their toy, and they wont respect you.

So really...it's the lack of respect that I see that the dog doesn't have. And it's because someone thought it was cute, and didn't think about the dog's happiness or the surrounding people.

Also I go to the park with my dog and every SINGLE TIME, all the little ass dogs...hump my dog.

If they have been domesticated properly then I have no problem with any dog. If they haven't then I don't hate the dog...the dog is innocent, I hate the owner.

And it is hate.



Yea, I mean I don't know about all the controversy. I have no idea what the guy does off the camera. But I don't think people understand his intent. The way it comes across to me when he's talking, it sounds more like he's getting into the dog's mentality and trying to get to the root of the problem. Where people are just trying to find a quick fix....which doesn't work. Just my opinion though.

The problem is that he uses what most trainers consider an extreme version of 'negative' reinforcement - along with 'positive' punishment. These are the exact two techniques that most animal behaviourists will avoid in favour of positive reinforcement if at all possible. They can be highly effective and have their place for sure, but to rely on especially positive punishment is old fashioned and, as experience teaches, least effective in most cases, while holding the biggest potential for being harmful to the animal. Positive reinforcement is preferred and used almost solely especially in training, though in correcting behavioral problems, you use all of the techniques (and some others) mentioned above, depending on what the situation calls for. Still, you prioritise positive reinforcement if it is an option over the others, due to the safety issues and positive associations it invokes.

The current view is that positive reinforcement is more useful, more responsible for both the human and the animal, and less likely to be a hazard or a means of abuse by either ignorance or malicious intent. Worst case, it doesn't work. But it doesn't traumatise the animal or put the human in danger, ya know?

Cesars methods...don't offer that guarantee, that safety net as such. While they are effective when used in an incredibly precise way, it's kind of like using a katana to slice vegetables, in many cases. The exception being aggressive dogs, as their trust level and sense of hierarchy no longer depends on cooperation but on survival instincts. Kind of like with criminals - either you have a firm hand or you get eaten alive. Only once you gain some of their trust through consistent, firm, yet fair leadership can you reincorporate the methods that they got desensitised to through fear and the subsequent shielding they do to keep all influences out.

But with normal people - and normal dogs...there is no need for that. Granted, it works - kind of like a fair tribal chieftain works just as well and in some cases better than a democracy. But that chieftain structure works best with small groups who are in need of strong, direct and immediate leadership coz they are surrounded by hazardous living circumstances - iow, an outside force/evil/obstacle that unites the tribe under that leader - that keeps them from bickering amongst each other and abuse social politics which that system is highly susceptible to.

The Chieftains power in the wrong hands...or even just in incompetent hands is..yeah - especially in the extreme way Cesar wields it. It is an antiquated way of working, to our modern view. And it does not foster cooperation out of the willingness to meet in the middle between the animal and human - it is firmly putting the human in charge and using their intelligence and understanding of the animal - in some cases ABUSING it, to use the dogs instincts and pack mentality against it in order to force it to do what you like - even if it causes negative associations and emotions such as fear. Aka, it does not get a choice, it gets cajoled. And while some animals need this 'kick' as such, it's harmful to many others. Not to mention that it flies against what many animal trainers believe in - that animal training and animal-human cooperation should be a mutually beneficial and consensual situation.

From what Ive seen, Cesar is a very benevolent Chieftain/Tyrant. He knows exactly how to balance that power and how not to abuse it. His followers are almost guaranteed not be that experienced, that wise or that competent. I still cannot agree with it though. I prefer being a benevolent leader and giving the dog the choice and time to figure out why it is beneficial to follow me over a benevolent tyrant who gives the animal no choice. I'd only use the latter with a dog who has learned how to use social scare tactics to stage a coup and usurp his owners to become the chieftain and only understands that kind of harsh communication and a display of strength. A dog that pretty much turned into the canine variant of a criminal. And to effectively rehabilitate him and resensitize him to the benevolent leader style of working, I might meet him on his own turf the way Cesar does, but only as a last resort.

 

[Jaguar]

I don't agree with people who treat dogs like they are a human child and go with them everywhere and expect everyone else to conform to their way of thinking.

I guess you wouldn't have approved of taking my dog to class in college.

 

[Evo]

The problem is that he uses what most trainers consider an extreme version of 'negative' reinforcement. And the current view is that positive reinforcement is more useful, more responsible for both the human and the animal, and less likely to be a hazard or a means of abuse by either ignorance or malicious intent. Worst case, it doesn't work. But it doesn't traumatise the animal or put the human in danger, ya know?

Yea I get that.

I actually had listened to a program about the domestication of people...and it feels kinda skeevy to even think about what we do to animals, or children, just so that they fit in. And we don't think that we are harming them by shaming them and stuff....but we are.

[/quote]His methods...don't offer that guarantee, that safety net as such. While they are effective when used in an incredibly precise way, it's kind of like using a katana to slice vegetables, in many cases. The exception being aggressive dogs, as their trust level and sense of hierarchy no longer depends on cooperation but on survival instincts. Kind of like with criminals - either you have a firm hand or you get eaten alive. Only once you gain some of their trust through consistent, firm, yet fair leadership can you reincorporate the methods that they got desensitised to through fear and the subsequent shielding they do to keep all influences out.

But with normal people - and normal dogs...there is no need for that.[/quote]

I dunno. He seems like he talks about energy a lot. I get what you mean....about the aggressive dogs....but I have used some of his techniques...the right way...and it doesn't emotionally/mentally scar her (my dog). He teaches his stuff...in like a spiritual/neutral way...I mean..I think he even uses the word energy like at least every episode. lol That's why I just think that people misinterpret what he's saying.

Come to think of it...I didn't think he used negative reinforcement...Maybe I just haven't seen those episodes....?

I thought he just redirects energy and focus....can you explain maybe?

The Chieftains power in the wrong hands...or even just in incompetent hands is..yeah - especially in the extreme way Cesar wields it. It is an antiquated way of working, to our modern view. And it does not foster cooperation out of the willingness to meet in the middle between the animal and human - it is firmly putting the human in charge and using their intelligence and understanding - in some cases ABUSING it, to use the dogs instincts and pack mentality against it in order to force it to do what you like. Aka, it does not get a choice. And that flies against what many animal trainers believe in - that animal training and animal-human cooperation should be a mutually beneficial and consensual situation.

I think I understand what you are getting at here...but I mean...we call them pet owners for a reason. I think this is where dogs and cats differ the most I think. Dogs are a pack animal...they want to please the pack leader...that IS what's beneficial to them and that's why they consent. Cats....well...you know me and cats...lol...I still don't get them.

The Millan technique is designed to teach dogs about hierarchy and respect - to show them who's boss. He can do that to a pit bull or rotty puppy all he wants. But my puppy was already aware of hierarchy.

The guy really shouldn't be doing that to ppl's dogs though. >.>

Poor pup

 

[prplchknz]

I don't dislike a dog based on its size but rather how annoying it is

 

[Amargith]

Yea I get that.

I actually had listened to a program about the domestication of people...and it feels kinda skeevy to even think about what we do to animals, or children, just so that they fit in. And we don't think that we are harming them by shaming them and stuff....but we are.


I dunno. He seems like he talks about energy a lot. I get what you mean....about the aggressive dogs....but I have used some of his techniques...the right way...and it doesn't emotionally/mentally scar her (my dog). He teaches his stuff...in like a spiritual/neutral way...I mean..I think he even uses the word energy like at least every episode. lol That's why I just think that people misinterpret what he's saying.

Come to think of it...I didn't think he used negative reinforcement...Maybe I just haven't seen those episodes....?

I thought he just redirects energy and focus....can you explain maybe?



I think I understand what you are getting at here...but I mean...we call them pet owners for a reason. I think this is where dogs and cats differ the most I think. Dogs are a pack animal...they want to please the pack leader...that IS what's beneficial to them and that's why they consent. Cats....well...you know me and cats...lol...I still don't get them.

Cats just don't understand what hierarchy means as its foreign to them
They just go 'dude, what's your problem?'
It also means they are on their own though..if 5 cats are sitting near each other and a big mean dog goes to one of the cats...the rest just watches the interaction and only deals with the dog if it threatens them. That cat is on its own.

Im aware that dogs feel safer in a pack with a clear leader. Im not arguing to deny them that...Im just saying that I don't agree with the way in which that leadership is established in his case. Honey vs vinegar, really. Vinegar is fine for when speed and efficiency is essential as you need to fall in line quickly to get something done that is vital to the group. I prefer honey for when there isn't an outside evil to combat or goal to obtain that enforces our bond naturally during down time when boredom kicks in and people get snippy though.

If you re interested in comparing techniques though you should research a british lady called Victoria. She did her show on...Animal Planet, I think, to compete with Cesars National Geographic show and their philosophy on how to train dogs is...very different, but they get similar results and she too preaches leadership as you are right, that is what a dog requires to feel safe. Hers is clearly more...technique oriented vs his instinctual approach, and focuses on drawing boundaries in a way that communicates to the animal in a non-fearful way that this behaviour is not acceptable, as well as positive reinforcement to get the dog to try something new and train a new behaviour that would be beneficial to the owners and the dog. Otoh, she would not take the risk he does with aggressive dogs, and rightly so, with her techniques. I wish he would do the same or at least teach caution to those using his technique with animals vulnerable to abuse aka young, timid, senior and phobic animals. In that field, her techniques really do shine, I feel.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Small dogs are annoying because they are either yippy or terrified of everything, like when you turn on the microwave. I worry about them biting me, sometimes.

Large dogs seem like gentle giants, and have more mellow, quieter personalities. They seem loyal, not loud. I like Irish Wolfhounds, especially.

Small dogs just seem like perpetual babies to me. I don't like babies.

 

[Ginkgo]

Yesterday I saw a woman walking her chihuahua through an airport - the thing strutted around like a miniature wolf. It then proceeded to excrete a line of doo doo droplets all over the carpet as its owner shuffled around in a circle, methodically picking each little nugget up.

I thought it was funny and oddly more delightful than other instances of small, sobbing dogs being jammed in portable cubbyholes.

 

[Habba]

The Millan technique is designed to teach dogs about hierarchy and respect - to show them who's boss.

This is why his methods can be seen as out-dated. Human should not be member or the heard, only dogs should be part of the herd. Also, there's no strict hierarchy, as it changes with the situtation. For example, when tracking game, the best tracker of the herd takes the lead and other follow. I'll try to find some sources when I'm not on mobile.

 

[Vasilisa]

the new work of dogs

I like dogs and cats. I don't own any dogs, though. Maybe its age, but I find myself getting more irritated by neurotic behavior in pets (especially in dogs since it is more disruptive and therefore visible to people besides the owner) Often the behaviors and neuroses are primarily a function of the way that dog has been treated by people. Thus, I don't feel hate toward an animal, but displeasure about what people have done, the lack of awareness, and the limits of psychological understanding and wherewithal when it comes to rehabilitating neurotic behavior.

Hopefully this doesn't sound like I consider all people with an imperfectly behaved pet a failure deserving of scorn. I reserve that for animal abusers. Bad behavior in a pet doesn't equate to an owner not loving or caring about the animal. And I have so much sympathy for homeless animals that have been surrendered and so much respect for the people, who with love and awareness, try to rehabilitate animals with behavior problems. But the truth is that a lot of animal neuroses can be traced to our human expectations, attitudes and demands.

Even before The Dog Whisperer phenomenon, I was interested in dog psychology. I liked books by Dr. Nicholas Dodman which first introduced me to the principles of dog psychology and showed the depth and meaning behind many common behavior problems.

And I found The New Work of Dogs by Jon Katz (!) to be especially important. He talks about how more and more in our modern world the job of dogs is shifting (from traditional roles: herding, hunting, guard) towards providing whatever emotional nourishment a particular individual happens to be needing at that time. This expectation, and the way humans often express it, is frequently at odds with dog's natural psychology often leading to neurosis in the animal and frustration in people. I don't mean that dogs cannot enrich our emotional lives, they most certainly do. (I know someone who is currently attempting to get a dog trained and certified as a psychological service dog.) But I do believe that more people need to be aware and take the mental health of their pet seriously. I know its not easy, but no one is forced to have a pet, and it is worth the work. The owner's mental health and that of their pet are bound up in each other. Dogs are living creatures, and I don't think they are hateful, they have psychological needs and limitations, kind of like us. I take that very seriously and wish more people did, too.

Reposting from an old thread. I think that smaller dogs are more likely to have to take on the task that I have bolded.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Smaller working breeds aren't nearly as annoying (to me at least).

Grew up with Jack Russell Terriers. Luckily they were bread to hunt and not sit around looking good.

Also like some of the smaller herding dogs. I'll probably get a corgi eventually.

Corgi's are a little different though, medium dog with small dog legs.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Reposting from an old thread. I think that smaller dogs are more likely to have to take on the task that I have bolded.

I strongly suspect my mom got a yippy-afraid-of-everything-floor-shitting Bichon as part of Empty Nest Syndrome. Apparently that dog eats duck because the stomach is too delicate for anything else! Duck! A dog gets fed duck regularly!

 

[Amargith]

I strongly suspect my mom got a yippy-afraid-of-everything-floor-shitting Bichon as part of Empty Nest Syndrome. Apparently that dog eats duck because the stomach is too delicate for anything else! Duck! A dog gets fed duck regularly!

My kitty gets venison ( and green peas)....otherwise she gets chronic itching and irritable bowel syndrome...to the point where it would kill her. Food allergies. And popular, cheaper brands often contain all types of meat that aren't too pricy to put in there, along with stuff to make cats like it which aint exactly that good for kitty. Only way to know for sure her allergies won't flare up is use meat they wouldn't bother putting in there coz its too expensive