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The Problem of Disinformation

á´…eparted

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Well its useful to repeat to them, even if they dont want to hear it or doubt its true, that racism is all about the harm and that their enemies will not loose much sleep about them holding views that harm them, their families, their legacies and their societies.

Its simple really, if you want someone to harm themselves you dont present it to them as harm, you present it as something which is great really, at present you might present it as a taboo, and then people will adopt it in droves. You've succeeded in inflicting a defeat on them without even firing a shot. You know?

Racism is one of the most intractable set of thoughts feelings and beliefs a person can hold. The older I get the more I come to see that trying to get someone to even understand what racism is is nearly impossible for the vast majority of people. Only they can do it themselves. Trump and GOP supporters? Not a chance in hell. They are better left alone/ignored for discussion on the topics. Given an inch they'll take over the conversation and bring up bullshit far faster than any person can shoot down. Don't poke the crazy.
 

Maou

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I dont think racism is natural or spontaneous at all, I got no time for it and as we never grew up with it in our household we never became racist ourselves.

I've encountered racism towards myself but generally it is by people who're weak and pathetic themselves so I dont worry a great deal about it. Unfortunately its something which influences the rich and powerful and therefore's there's structural oppression which is something that I'm more concerned about and crime.

When I've experienced racism, whether its structural injustice or hateful behaviour, I never thought it'd be a good idea to mirror it, that would make absolutely no sense what so ever. If you want to put a fire out you do it with water not more fire.

That is a superficial way of looking at it. Just because you were not raised to hate a specific group of people, doesn't mean you do not posses the root cause of racism (triablism). A good example of it a different form, is how much you hate your political opponents. It is the same feelings, and frustration. Hence my point that is is both cultural/enviromental and instinctual. Yet often times, people do not make efforts to suppress how much they hate certain ideologies. In fact you can word swap a lot of things in terms of ideology and race. The same argument can be made about ideological diversity, and racial diversity.

Have you ever thought about how racism does harm to anyone or any society that professes it?

At the genetic level it reduces biodiversity and increases the incidences of genetic malformations, entropy and disease.

If you want to ruin a family line or a society it is something which you would encourage, foster or at least sabotage any attempt at undoing its influence. So it comes as no surprise that there would be people who do not profess it themselves who would encourage it in others that they want to come to harm or go into decline by doing so.

That's quite aside from all the social conflict or turmoil that develops on the back of racism.

The narrowing of tastes or range of choice and options, which is a self abdicating of freedom, is always a bad thing and as bad things go people DO wish them on their enemies and some of those enemies dont appreciate that very much.

Yes, a lot. It is a very complex thing. I don't really see it being rooted in a biological perspective though, but as a human instinctual and cultural perspective. Hell, a mammal perspective. Even in a perfectly pure, one race society. There would still be segregation, by both culture and values. Hatred will still exist. I am not arguing one or the other is better, just that it will always be a thing.
 

Vendrah

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To clarify, you are disagreeing with the statement that racism is organic/naturally occurring correct?

I think the definition of "Racism" is far to vague, and misrepresents the core aspect of what it actually is. I personally do not think people hate those of another race, simply due to appearance. It is far more complicated. I believe it is related to mannerisms, culture, and values. Often times people lump Xenophobia together with racism. Racism itself is just a form of xenophobia extended to the entire group of people. You'd be far fetched to find a racist who hates people just for being a certain race, and not hating them based on certain behaviors instead. So if you take culture into account, more than race. You will see why groups of people dislike each other.

For example, one culture might think speaking up and standing out is embarrassing, and rude. While another might see it as normal. What happens when these two groups are together? General avoidance, annoyance, and pressure to change and convert the other side. Then they will polarize, and demonize the other group. They will see negatives in other behaviors, and one group will teach their kids the other group is loud and obnoxious, while the other group teaches their kids that the quiet people are spineless and cowardly. So in a way, it is both organic, and environmental. But it all starts with tribalism, and human nature; that we really are not aware that we even partake in because its instinctual.

The root of racism is essentially a web of these things, so intertwined throughout human civilization and history. That it isn't going to come undone by telling people to be nice. This is why I have been against things like multiculturalism, because it promotes things like racism, xenophobia, and community distrust. Because even in multicultural societies, the groups segregate themselves. Because they only trust themselves. People disagree on the best approach to something, and that is all that is needed to create racism, xenophobia, and hatred. I also feel it important to not generalize an entire group, based on what prominent figures say. I stick to my rule of judging people as individuals, but even then it is difficult to not feel some sort of impulse to generalize. Alas, it is what it means to be human in my opinion. An endless struggle.

As for China, I especially do not see all Asians as "Chinese". Nor do I think, of all the countries, does this government represent it's people. Because it's a Technocratic communist dictatorship. The people are a victim of their situation, and the government doesn't take any measures against lack of education, poverty, and safety concerns at all. That is why Hong Kong is still protesting, even during the Corona virus outbreak.

I also have to point out, that I think the whole "People are hating on Chinese, due to Corona" is probably a fabricated controversy, and blown out of proportion. Since there will always be a number of hate crimes, regardless of what is going on in the world. The media will make these out to be new (relying on your ignorance), to manufacture outrage. Which could however, inspire more hate crimes. They do this all the time. Remember bathsalts making people into zombies? Remember Metal being Satanic? They did the same shit with that, whenever there is a serious moral concern. Just life before the internet was oh so much more boring lol.

I think you had a good starting point and an interesting thoughts, but then things derailed a bit on the end.

I, as much as some other people, likes to involve types even in place where it doesnt belong or where it is unusual, and I couldnt help but thinking about types again.

I dont think its human natures, because of the stats of MBTI I know combined with the fact that I read in some type descriptions that:
- One of the NP types, which I dont remember which, plus another one (and if I searched more perhaps I would find more types), were recommended to do travels to meet distant and different cultures. It says that some research (although it doesnt quote which research) found that these types appreciate travels and meeting new cultures. That could be a little bit reasoned with Ne... So, I dont think for these types, the idea of innate tribalism is valid, thus, humanity are not innate to tribalism because thats incorrect for at least 2 MBTI types (unless these types are not human).
- INTP type is related by Oddly developed types by a type which appreciates studying language. Tribalism discourage people for learning language, if people were sooo much tribal we would not have much people learning new languages. If everybody was indeed tribal, then I would not even be replying to you in the first place.
- Your logic does have a paradox. If you believe in judging people individually, then you are not against multiculturalism. Dooming them to stay in the same culture without ever having the possibility of having a chance to change by forcing them to stay in the same culture (remember, you are blocking multiculturalism here), is a non-individual judgment.
- Canada is more multicultural and less xenophobic than the US. If multiculturalism caused xenophobia on its own and without any other factors, then we would expect Canada to be more xenophobic than US.

It is true, although, that in some sort of categorization, there is a human group of people who have all these patterns you mention on the first two paragraphs. I would be completely pro to put all these racists in a corner of the country, and I mean countries in general, isolate them and let them having their own race utopia, which I would be surprised if it did have some success. In other part, it would be interesting to see a different corner of higher inclusion, where the inclusion criteria are quite different than race and the premises of racist people. However, these people with a racist mindset also have a forever-expansion (or "growth") mindset, and they want to spread racism and their culture (this includes religion) in all of the country, and then perhaps in all of the world. So, even if isolated, they would try to infiltrate and would send people to sabotage the other regions in order to give traction to their culture to spread. This spread, in the case of race, would eventual lead to some sort of elimination of other races, since you cannot do conversions (you cannot convert people from black to white). And considering that, did you ever wonder: If black people are repulsive, then why some white people made a big effort to come to Africa and to spread africans all over the globe? Because it is not really about black people being repulsive or bad.
 

Maou

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I think you had a good starting point and an interesting thoughts, but then things derailed a bit on the end.

I, as much as some other people, likes to involve types even in place where it doesnt belong or where it is unusual, and I couldnt help but thinking about types again.

I dont think its human natures, because of the stats of MBTI I know combined with the fact that I read in some type descriptions that:
- One of the NP types, which I dont remember which, plus another one (and if I searched more perhaps I would find more types), were recommended to do travels to meet distant and different cultures. It says that some research (although it doesnt quote which research) found that these types appreciate travels and meeting new cultures. That could be a little bit reasoned with Ne... So, I dont think for these types, the idea of innate tribalism is valid, thus, humanity are not innate to tribalism because thats incorrect for at least 2 MBTI types (unless these types are not human).

Being open minded, doesn't mean you do not posses your own values and moral compass. A lot of people think that racism, and other things can be expelled with understanding. This is inherently false. Some people perfectly understand, and will still argue about whether or not it is right or wrong. Because ultimately, we are forced to choose sides. For example, abortion. We cannot deny that a fetus is alive, and killing is wrong. But many choose the right of a woman, over an unborn life instead. I view it as ultimately just unfortunate and sad. One could look at culture the same way. For example, at some point people decided having sex with children was bad. They enacted laws to protect them, till they were mature and able to reasonably consent. But in some cultures, that law is at a much lower threshold. Even if you understand, that some cultures don't view certain things the same way. You still can't help but feel that something is wrong with it.

- INTP type is related by Oddly developed types by a type which appreciates studying language. Tribalism discourage people for learning language, if people were sooo much tribal we would not have much people learning new languages. If everybody was indeed tribal, then I would not even be replying to you in the first place.

You are rather oversimplifying it. Learning is completely self-centric. Like I said above, just because you are open minded. Doesn't mean you forget where you came from and your upbringing. These things exist simultaneously. Since communication is important among tribes, and have been for 1000s of years. You are replying because you are open minded, and not reflexing in a social stiuation. Humans are capable of such, but such things go out the door very quickly when things get hairy. You are better off comparing levels of individuality and group thin, and the ideology they posess.


- Your logic does have a paradox. If you believe in judging people individually, then you are not against multiculturalism. Dooming them to stay in the same culture without ever having the possibility of having a chance to change by forcing them to stay in the same culture (remember, you are blocking multiculturalism here), is a non-individual judgment.
- Canada is more multicultural and less xenophobic than the US. If multiculturalism caused xenophobia on its own and without any other factors, then we would expect Canada to be more xenophobic than US.

I judge people individually, but I still have my preconceived notions about them based on general, and sometimes negative expectations. I like to be proven wrong, and many have. But as a pre-requisite for me trying, these preconceived notions are useful. We humans are also hardwired to subconsciously pick up on patterns, not only in things, but people. This minimizes how much energy the brain has to spend calculating threats in a survival, or social scenario. This didn't go away when we created advanced civilization, it only changed how it manifested.

Multiculturalism, in the sense that I know it (mixing everything together) is a bad idea because it increases tension between groups (especially without a uniting factor). I think a picture is more beautiful, when all the colors are not mixed together and form a complete picture of humanity. You do not think of Japan, and think French culture. You do not think of Britain, and think of American culture. Each nation and peoples has its distinct cultures, even within those nations there are distinct groups.

Now if you mean respecting any culture, that is fine too. But unfortunately many people refuse to acknowledge that certain cultures do not get along for obvious reasons. How do people support intentionally forcing two opposing forces together, and expecting them to attract? Like in my analogy, they don't...and it just forms more issues. Now for people who want to adapt, to a new culture or nation? I can support that, but often times when people migrate to a new country, or a new state. They try to impose their way of life on the host nation or state. So is the imposer wrong or right? Do they have the right to just try to dissolve the host nation's culture as a minority? I personally, think it is wrong. That any person migrating should assimilate into their host nation. That is what early settlers did in USA, and that is why you have that phenomena where Americans proudly profess their European heritage. But as far as most non-Americans are concerned. They are not European at all. If the culture of the nation they left, was the reason they were leaving. Why would they bring it with them? Why would you come, if you didn't want to partake in what opportunities that nation had to offer? I do not understand this push to let migrants essentially make ghettos of another country, within another country.

It is true, although, that in some sort of categorization, there is a human group of people who have all these patterns you mention on the first two paragraphs. I would be completely pro to put all these racists in a corner of the country, and I mean countries in general, isolate them and let them having their own race utopia, which I would be surprised if it did have some success. In other part, it would be interesting to see a different corner of higher inclusion, where the inclusion criteria are quite different than race and the premises of racist people. However, these people with a racist mindset also have a forever-expansion (or "growth") mindset, and they want to spread racism and their culture (this includes religion) in all of the country, and then perhaps in all of the world. So, even if isolated, they would try to infiltrate and would send people to sabotage the other regions in order to give traction to their culture to spread. This spread, in the case of race, would eventual lead to some sort of elimination of other races, since you cannot do conversions (you cannot convert people from black to white).

You'd be surprised to find, that is exactly what racists want. Their own little pure Utopia to be left alone in. Though I think the whole "Growth" idea, is unfounded. This isn't the British colonization anymore. I mean, look at what Japan did since WW2 with its practically pure "Racial utopia" and no military on a tiny island. It wouldn't be the best argument to make that it wouldn't work. I think people are more afraid that it would, and what would happen to the world then? The whole infiltration and sabotage thing is kind of baseless? That would require the group to think they were inferior. Racists think they are superior to every other race. They couldn't let go of their pride.

The inclusion thing could work, but you need a monoculture, as well as strong national identity. This doesn't have to include religion, but religion helps in terms of cultural significance. Something has to unite the people, that is stronger than race. We see this in political ideologies all the time, so I don't think its impossible. The problem is that it requires generations of work and effort, and there is no feasible way of doing it without erasing history.


And considering that, did you ever wonder: If black people are repulsive, then why some white people made a big effort to come to Africa and to spread africans all over the globe? Because it is not really about black people being repulsive or bad.

Black people are all over the globe, because slavery brought them there. They have been enslaved by pretty much every other major race (mainly arabs, whites, and their own people). They had no where to go, or get back home after it was abolished. So they had to survive in their native country, barely speaking the language or knowing the culture (people learning the language) all on their own with no help. This created a very strong, social identity and trust within this group whose effects we still see today.

Wow long post, but if you get back to me I will probably reply in the morning. If I left anything out, or didn't address something. Just let me know, and I will try to elaborate more.
 

prplchknz

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ygolo

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Race (in humans) itself is a social concept. Go to different countries or even different periods of time and what constitutes a race of human being is different. In the US, the categories are an evolving concept with features like the fact that hispanics are themselves split into white and non-white in places where race is measured in demographics. The white supremacists who were at the alt-right rally in Charlottesville were chanting that the "Jews cannot replace us!" even though many Jews have white skin.

My own experiences with racism in the US is worse than it has been in my lifetime. Death threats and hate e-mail based on race were not things that I thought would be something I'd experience in the modern us. Nonetheless, that has been part of my reality lately. I do think a certain contingent of our population were emboldened to let their a racism show. One thing that exemplifies this is Richard Spencer's nazi salute during a rally that he held after the last presidential election.

Unfortunately, the people who would be most effective at reigning these sentiments, basically the people who vote the same way politically, have not been vocal enough to squelch the problem. The trend in racist sentiment (which started growing noticeably in 2015) is palpable.

Tbh, I wouldn't dislike a Trump re-election nearly as much, if it also came with a collective FU to the white supremicists and neo-Nazis. That way they'd know that Trump's election is not a vindication of their ideology.
 

Vendrah

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Being open minded, doesn't mean you do not posses your own values and moral compass. A lot of people think that racism, and other things can be expelled with understanding. This is inherently false. Some people perfectly understand, and will still argue about whether or not it is right or wrong. Because ultimately, we are forced to choose sides. For example, abortion. We cannot deny that a fetus is alive, and killing is wrong. But many choose the right of a woman, over an unborn life instead. I view it as ultimately just unfortunate and sad. One could look at culture the same way. For example, at some point people decided having sex with children was bad. They enacted laws to protect them, till they were mature and able to reasonably consent. But in some cultures, that law is at a much lower threshold. Even if you understand, that some cultures don't view certain things the same way. You still can't help but feel that something is wrong with it.



You are rather oversimplifying it. Learning is completely self-centric. Like I said above, just because you are open minded. Doesn't mean you forget where you came from and your upbringing. These things exist simultaneously. Since communication is important among tribes, and have been for 1000s of years. You are replying because you are open minded, and not reflexing in a social stiuation. Humans are capable of such, but such things go out the door very quickly when things get hairy. You are better off comparing levels of individuality and group thin, and the ideology they posess.




I judge people individually, but I still have my preconceived notions about them based on general, and sometimes negative expectations. I like to be proven wrong, and many have. But as a pre-requisite for me trying, these preconceived notions are useful. We humans are also hardwired to subconsciously pick up on patterns, not only in things, but people. This minimizes how much energy the brain has to spend calculating threats in a survival, or social scenario. This didn't go away when we created advanced civilization, it only changed how it manifested.

Multiculturalism, in the sense that I know it (mixing everything together) is a bad idea because it increases tension between groups (especially without a uniting factor). I think a picture is more beautiful, when all the colors are not mixed together and form a complete picture of humanity. You do not think of Japan, and think French culture. You do not think of Britain, and think of American culture. Each nation and peoples has its distinct cultures, even within those nations there are distinct groups.

Now if you mean respecting any culture, that is fine too. But unfortunately many people refuse to acknowledge that certain cultures do not get along for obvious reasons. How do people support intentionally forcing two opposing forces together, and expecting them to attract? Like in my analogy, they don't...and it just forms more issues. Now for people who want to adapt, to a new culture or nation? I can support that, but often times when people migrate to a new country, or a new state. They try to impose their way of life on the host nation or state. So is the imposer wrong or right? Do they have the right to just try to dissolve the host nation's culture as a minority? I personally, think it is wrong. That any person migrating should assimilate into their host nation. That is what early settlers did in USA, and that is why you have that phenomena where Americans proudly profess their European heritage. But as far as most non-Americans are concerned. They are not European at all. If the culture of the nation they left, was the reason they were leaving. Why would they bring it with them? Why would you come, if you didn't want to partake in what opportunities that nation had to offer? I do not understand this push to let migrants essentially make ghettos of another country, within another country.



You'd be surprised to find, that is exactly what racists want. Their own little pure Utopia to be left alone in. Though I think the whole "Growth" idea, is unfounded. This isn't the British colonization anymore. I mean, look at what Japan did since WW2 with its practically pure "Racial utopia" and no military on a tiny island. It wouldn't be the best argument to make that it wouldn't work. I think people are more afraid that it would, and what would happen to the world then? The whole infiltration and sabotage thing is kind of baseless? That would require the group to think they were inferior. Racists think they are superior to every other race. They couldn't let go of their pride.

The inclusion thing could work, but you need a monoculture, as well as strong national identity. This doesn't have to include religion, but religion helps in terms of cultural significance. Something has to unite the people, that is stronger than race. We see this in political ideologies all the time, so I don't think its impossible. The problem is that it requires generations of work and effort, and there is no feasible way of doing it without erasing history.




Black people are all over the globe, because slavery brought them there. They have been enslaved by pretty much every other major race (mainly arabs, whites, and their own people). They had no where to go, or get back home after it was abolished. So they had to survive in their native country, barely speaking the language or knowing the culture (people learning the language) all on their own with no help. This created a very strong, social identity and trust within this group whose effects we still see today.

Wow long post, but if you get back to me I will probably reply in the morning. If I left anything out, or didn't address something. Just let me know, and I will try to elaborate more.

Most of what you said do not answer any issues I had bring in, but rather derail to other subjects.
The Open Mind argument just reinforces that there is no human innate preference for tribalism, because, if it was, this Open Mindness would not exist in the way you described, which actually return to my previous statement.

A simple Canada VS US comparison already brings your whole theory of multiculturalism causing racism down. I dont think I need to repeat the comparison. You dont need to explain further to me a theory that is already evidently wrong.

Japan was already isolated before Word Wars; But, until US came with Nuclear Weapons of mass destruction, Japan was already engaged, by centuries, with wars against China. The japanese were trying to get out of their own island even knowing that that would imply into having to live with non-japanese people. They didnt had just sit in the island enjoying their monoculture utopia, but rather wanted to expand it, and they worked to sabotage chinese people in order to do that. And with that expansion comes war and death, with the latter wars being the first and second sino-japanese war.

None of what you said in your final part of the text really addressed my issue.

--

And, so far, although I hide to this point, this discussion and your ideas are making me angry.
So, yeah, you are basically very lucky to be born on a good environment, while I don't, and screw me.
I dont like where I live, I dont fit in local SJish culture, and I am prone to be hated and unwelcome everywhere. Perhaps I just should die then.
Perhaps isoprene was right.
 

Coriolis

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Being open minded, doesn't mean you do not posses your own values and moral compass. A lot of people think that racism, and other things can be expelled with understanding. This is inherently false. Some people perfectly understand, and will still argue about whether or not it is right or wrong. Because ultimately, we are forced to choose sides. For example, abortion. We cannot deny that a fetus is alive, and killing is wrong. But many choose the right of a woman, over an unborn life instead. I view it as ultimately just unfortunate and sad. One could look at culture the same way.
If understanding cannot dispel racism, then what does? It is undeniable that it does get dispelled in many cases, just like other forms of prejudice.

As for being forced to choose sides, we are not. At the point of action, of course, all things become binary. We either do A or we do not. Most people realize that the broader issues are not black and white, though. To use your example, one person might support abortion in one situation, and not another.

Black people are all over the globe, because slavery brought them there. They have been enslaved by pretty much every other major race (mainly arabs, whites, and their own people). They had no where to go, or get back home after it was abolished. So they had to survive in their native country, barely speaking the language or knowing the culture (people learning the language) all on their own with no help. This created a very strong, social identity and trust within this group whose effects we still see today.
Actually, it created a breakdown in social identity, and in family structure which is a main conduit for passing down such an identity. Their current identity, at least in the US, seems to have much less to do with their being black, or more specifically, of African heritage, than people assume. A good friend lived in Zimbabwe for some years and maintains close ties with a number of groups and families from there and other African countries. When these people visit the US, they are appalled at the behavior and lifestyle of our "African-Americans". Their objections can best be summarized as: "Someone needs to teach them how to be African again" as they have lost the traditional values and virtues of their original cultures.
 

ceecee

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I came to the conclusion awhile back that racist people and apologists for racists people want everyone to stop trying to solve racism. That there is no point to solving it. This is the same conclusion they use for climate change, for poverty, for violence against women and any other ill of society - It's always been there. It will always be there. Furthermore you can't change it. So stop. That's why they work so hard at it, why they need propaganda and disinformation that they know will never be verified. Not when you have the true believers in the seats.

They're basically saying - Leave us alone, let us instill racism and psychopathic hate of races, ethnicity and sexes in our children and in our communities as we wish. You have no right to complain or attempt to change people's mind, they might outnumber us someday.

Inshallah, motherfuckers.
 

rav3n

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I've come to the conclusion about bigotry. It's people who don't have anything going in their lives so they need bigotry to step on others, in order to salve their own lack. Sadly, from the outside looking in, they only appear smaller and ever so petty.
 

ygolo

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I came to the conclusion awhile back that racist people and apologists for racists people want everyone to stop trying to solve racism. That there is no point to solving it. This is the same conclusion they use for climate change, for poverty, for violence against women and any other ill of society - It's always been there. It will always be there. Furthermore you can't change it. So stop. That's why they work so hard at it, why they need propaganda and disinformation that they know will never be verified. Not when you have the true believers in the seats.

Sartre came to a very similar conclusion in The Anti-Semite and the Jew.

I believe the apologists, in particular, are acting in existential bad faith. They are using their essential freedom only to give up their freedom to act in this situation.

"neither consenting nor resisting – a thing"[5] – refusing either to return the gesture or to rebuke it.

The "it" in this case is racism...and their bad faith is their masterful playing victim to "natural forces".

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do nothing.
 

á´…eparted

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I came to the conclusion awhile back that racist people and apologists for racists people want everyone to stop trying to solve racism. That there is no point to solving it. This is the same conclusion they use for climate change, for poverty, for violence against women and any other ill of society - It's always been there. It will always be there. Furthermore you can't change it. So stop. That's why they work so hard at it, why they need propaganda and disinformation that they know will never be verified. Not when you have the true believers in the seats.

They're basically saying - Leave us alone, let us instill racism and psychopathic hate of races, ethnicity and sexes in our children and in our communities as we wish. You have no right to complain or attempt to change people's mind, they might outnumber us someday.

Inshallah, motherfuckers.

I really think one of the essential things that needs to be done regarding racists and apologists is to stop validating their ideas like they have anything meaningful to say. By simply engaging in debate with them, it assumes that their position is in some way valid, or on equal playing feeling. To be clear I am talking about the truly ignorant racists. The ones who clearly don't understand it at all. Not the ones that kinda get it, but are still partially clinging to old ways- those ones are worth talking to because they are open to changing. The rest aren't.

Because of how intractable racism, it cannot be changed in an individual head on by someone else. It's too deep. The reasons why it is held so tightly and irrationally. It is in deep personal psychological wounds - poor childhood rife with psychological battering at the hands of the parents and society, poor income, poor health and the damage poverty causes, poor values in an insular bubble, a lack of feeling of self worth, and ultimately rooting self esteem in immutable qualities. It's very much a deeply fixed mindset, instead of a growth mindset. Racists almost always have a pervasive fixed mindset. All of this, it renders any sort of debate with a racist utterly impossible. It will never directly work.

As time goes on I really think these people have to be ignored. I mean ignored on their ideas on the subject matter. The recent viral clip of the nurse standing in the way of the insane trump lady from her car trying to protest at a hospital exemplifies it. Get in their way, don't engage in a darn word in what they have to say, because it's all meaningless BS. Let them piss, moan, scream as much as they want in their own bubbles. For those who understand what racism is and want to do something about it. We have to go forward with making policy changes, disseminating and spreading culturally what racism is, how to combat it, and to smack anyone down who engages in racism (tuned to the severity of the act of course).

The problem is, it's not enough. I keep feeling like there must be a way to reason with them, get to them, change how they think, feel, etc. The only thing I have seen have any effect is to get to know someone well and address their own psychological hurts, which can open the door to them examining their own racism when it is gently brought to the surface. It's so so so much goddamn work and there aren't enough people in the world who can do this and it's way too impractical. Just... idk I am sort of at a loss. I do know part of how we have to deal with this, but there is a missing part that I cannot seem to figure out and I don't yet see folks who have an answer to it yet.

For now though, we must forge forward and smack them out of the way. Too much is at stake.
 

ceecee

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Sartre came to a very similar conclusion in The Anti-Semite and the Jew.

I believe the apologists, in particular, are acting in existential bad faith. They are using their essential freedom only to give up their freedom to act in this situation.



The "it" in this case is racism...and their bad faith is their masterful playing victim to "natural forces".

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do nothing.

I very much agree with this but it's never quite doing nothing that gets results. There has to be buy in at the top, always. Fascists in Germany couldn't succeed without buy in from capitalists and conservatives. Fascists in Italy couldn't succeed without the king and the church bending the knee and corporatism disguised as private property. Trump couldn't succeed without buy in from the media, GOP and capitalist donors. But it's the - there is nothing you can do about it so stop fighting it - mantra from the right that has worked to a degree. Lots of people have given up and now will say anything to justify that decision.
 

Norexan

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Capitalism is a degradation of awareness and spreading false information caused by capital of individuate. Why? Because you assume that people are like you and when you give each man "I" you got a system built on lies.
 

ceecee

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Z Buck McFate

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The dangerous global flood of misinformation surrounding COVID-19

Misinformation and conspiracy theories about COVID-19 have spread rapidly online, creating what some experts are now calling an “infodemic.” Health officials across the globe are scrambling to refute a flood of bogus claims, some of which could have harmful consequences. John Yang reports on the dangerous course of falsehoods during this global health crisis -- and techniques to identify them.


Not especially illuminating, but interesting enough to watch.
 

Red Herring

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My mother-in-law just asked my SO if he had already heard the latest theory... that the corona virus had escaped from an American lab!

Just so you Americans know what kind of rumors are spreading in Europe :D
 

Red Memories

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My mother-in-law just asked my SO if he had already heard the latest theory... that the corona virus had escaped from an American lab!

Just so you Americans know what kind of rumors are spreading in Europe :D

It is a conspiracy that also exists here. The idea is that Harvard transported it to the Wuhan lab and it escaped, but it originally began here.

Everyone likes to blame us. :p
 
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