The Problem of Disinformation

[anticlimatic]

Too bad disinformation is a common tool in politics. It is far too easy to manufacture your own story and studies to support your narrative.

Yeah it's a fine line between being against disinformation and being for the Ministry Of Truth.

 

[Riva]

I try to watch/read news with contrasting opinions - especially when it concerns politics - on alternate days.

Also I must add that though most people blame fake news on internet and unchecked news, mainstream media have been spreading fake news for quite sometime. If not fake atleast bias to an extent that it is fake.

Infact more a government is involved in news, the more likely it tends to be biased - especially when it comes to international politics.

The USA invasion of Iraq was based on such a lie. Weapons of mass destruction. Lolz.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

The USA invasion of Iraq was based on such a lie. Weapons of mass destruction. Lolz.

That involved foreigners, though, so it wasn't a major existential crisis for most people. I'm joking, but I'm not.

With the coronavirus, anyone could die among any social class or group, not just people who wear funny clothes on the other side of the world or poor kids trying to pay for college. This is why the executive branch lying is suddenly a big deal, and Truth and Tacts and Data are suddenly sacred.

 

[Lark]

That involved foreigners, though, so it wasn't a major existential crisis for most people. I'm joking, but I'm not.

With the coronavirus, anyone could die among any social class or group, not just people who wear funny clothes on the other side of the world or poor kids trying to pay for college. This is why the executive branch lying is suddenly a big deal, and Truth and Tacts and Data are suddenly sacred.

Yeah, they say that but really, are the odds of Trump or Boris actually dying the same as anyone in an overcrowded tenement or subway commute?

I know its different because its not all happening "elsewhere" but you know.

 

[Red Herring]

Yeah, they say that but really, are the odds of Trump or Boris actually dying the same as anyone in an overcrowded tenement or subway commute?

I know its different because its not all happening "elsewhere" but you know.

I think that's an important point not getting enough coverage. Yes, nobody is completely safe and it can hit anyone, but chances of survival as well as quality of care as well as the general state of one's immune system before an infection do strongly correlate with your socio-economic status. It's no coincidence that African Americans have a much higher risk of dying from Covid-19 than white Americans once they contracted the desease.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I think that's an important point not getting enough coverage. Yes, nobody is completely safe and it can hit anyone, but chances of survival as well as quality of care as well as the general state of one's immune system before an infection do strongly correlate with your socio-economic status. It's no coincidence that African Americans have a much higher risk of dying from Covid-19 than white Americans once they contracted the desease.

That's true. I was oversimplifying the situation a bit.

 

[ygolo]

I am curious to know if people there is actually common ground still in this discussion.

Do people agree that:
1) There is an objective history of events that happened in our world? By this, I mean, at the macroscopic level, that what happened when and where all have objective truthful answers?
2) Careful thought and analysis of reports of said events can lead to a best fit understanding of what is true?

 

[Lark]

I think that's an important point not getting enough coverage. Yes, nobody is completely safe and it can hit anyone, but chances of survival as well as quality of care as well as the general state of one's immune system before an infection do strongly correlate with your socio-economic status. It's no coincidence that African Americans have a much higher risk of dying from Covid-19 than white Americans once they contracted the desease.

Yeah, that is a huge, huge factor in this, the physical fitness, healthy or unhealthy habits of populations, groups, sections of society will determine the likelihood of survival in pandemics.

Its something I would actually like to hear a lot more about in terms of people who have not survived to know, were they smokers, did they have any life style issues contributing to the killer complications which did not qualify as underlying conditions but which were none the less significant?

I dont believe it will change the habits of those populations, the word is already out, for a long time, that doing drugs, being obese, smoking, drinking etc. is likely to make you ill or die but perhaps it could make some sort of difference, maybe focus attention on the cultural differences or patterns that attach to social status and wealth. A lot of people have difficulty understand that there is one or what it is.

At least that's the only conclusion I've been able to draw from people voting against their own self-interest because they believe they are a temporarily embarrassed millionaire or that a millionaire is really just a truck driver or bin man with a lot of money in the bank. The selection of people like Boris and Trump in the english speaking world I think has been an attempt to bolster and manage that narrative.

Its like look at these guys, they are relateable, they have "bad" opinions, they make slips, they are not slick and they seem to be keeping it real, so what if they own golf courses or have a lot of money in the banks? Well, nope, I think that this false consciousness needs to be wiped out.

I'll be clear though, its not like wealth and privilege make anyone lousy per se, but if those things are going to remain criteria in anyone's minds for holding public office or serving national interest its got to prove itself, at the minute its not. At the minute it just looks like a bunch of morons duping the public while everything is on the steep slope of decline.

 

[Lark]

I am curious to know if people there is actually common ground still in this discussion.

Do people agree that:
1) There is an objective history of events that happened in our world? By this, I mean, at the macroscopic level, that what happened when and where all have objective truthful answers?
2) Careful thought and analysis of reports of said events can lead to a best fit understanding of what is true?

That's true enough.

Also, the history of all heretofore existing societies has been the history of class struggles.

 

[Lark]

What does anyone think about the reports about anti-asian racism or even the attempts to stoke it in some quarters?

There is also, apparently, an ancillary development of the reporting of racism against Africans within China, for some reason, particularly Nigerians and the development of racism against Chinese and Asian people within Nigeria and African nations?

I've seen it reported by world media sources across social media, I subscribe to a couple of Asian-American and Asian cultural social media groups on facebook as I like cultural fusion, the way Asian people have interpreted or received HEMA for instance and just a lot of the cultural norms (which ironically, like taking off shoes in the house, I remember used to be western ones too from when I was growing up).

I wondered if this was all spontaneous or some bumbling attempts at Shinobi tactics again by the west, disrupt alliances and spread discord between China and trading partners, viewing the pandemic through the lens of low intensity warfare and paranoid style geo-politics.

 

[Maou]

What does anyone think about the reports about anti-asian racism or even the attempts to stoke it in some quarters?

There is also, apparently, an ancillary development of the reporting of racism against Africans within China, for some reason, particularly Nigerians and the development of racism against Chinese and Asian people within Nigeria and African nations?

I've seen it reported by world media sources across social media, I subscribe to a couple of Asian-American and Asian cultural social media groups on facebook as I like cultural fusion, the way Asian people have interpreted or received HEMA for instance and just a lot of the cultural norms (which ironically, like taking off shoes in the house, I remember used to be western ones too from when I was growing up).

I wondered if this was all spontaneous or some bumbling attempts at Shinobi tactics again by the west, disrupt alliances and spread discord between China and trading partners, viewing the pandemic through the lens of low intensity warfare and paranoid style geo-politics.

Racism against blacks is universal in most parts of the world iirc. They are subject to the most hate in many countries. Even in Africa, they have tribalism against certain groups. China is no different. This isn't a new thing. Anyone saying it is, is trying to create controversy for money in the current pandemic.

Racism is natural and spontaneous, because humans are tribal animals. Doesn't matter where, or against what. It will always exist. China has been exploiting African resources and treating Africas like animals. That is why there is racism between the two now. China is rapidly gaining control of buisness in Africa, and trading with themselves back in the mainland. Not really an issue of trade interference.

I really dislike the idea that it is taught/cultural. Because even in cultures where it is hammered into you that it is bad. It still exists. I think it is part of human nature, so it will always exist prominently in human society.

 

[The Cat]

 

[Red Memories]

Racism against blacks is universal in most parts of the world iirc. They are subject to the most hate in many countries. Even in Africa, they have tribalism against certain groups. China is no different. This isn't a new thing. Anyone saying it is, is trying to create controversy for money in the current pandemic.

Racism is natural and spontaneous, because humans are tribal animals. Doesn't matter where, or against what. It will always exist. China has been exploiting African resources and treating Africas like animals. That is why there is racism between the two now. China is rapidly gaining control of buisness in Africa, and trading with themselves back in the mainland. Not really an issue of trade interference.

I really dislike the idea that it is taught/cultural. Because even in cultures where it is hammered into you that it is bad. It still exists. I think it is part of human nature, so it will always exist prominently in human society.

May I suggest I disagree with this sentiment?

I've struggled some with family since entering the "big grand world" because as I experienced more people, I realized, which some people may not be willing to reassess, that the fear my grandfather attempted to instill in me about certain races and cultures, were not the full representation of a culture, and not the identity of that culture. I've met some very kind, intelligent black people. My favorite teacher is an immigrant from South Korea. I met some actual muslims, and they actually did not care I was a Christian at all. They were more like me, who felt as long as you are spiritual it is a positive thing. We would even discuss sometimes part of our faith that really aligned. I got to hear one of them's refugee story which crushed my heart, and gave me the realization that Muslims suffer from the issues over there too, they did not all become part of the war. If you talk to my grandfather, he still has his views of blacks, of muslims, and etc. and I have to leave because I cannot deal with it anymore because I reassessed and realized just how wrong he is based on reality. He is taking a section of people and defining the whole. Prejudice is so easy to succumb to. But maybe I wouldn't have been nervous about meeting an Islamic person when I was 18 if my grandfather had not told me they would cut my head off for being a Christian. I'm sure a section of them would, but that isn't the whole.

I think racism is a seed that is planted by an environment, and it is your choice whether or not you grow it. I do not think you can automatically go "well my parents!" because that is you lacking accountability for your choice. I have seen what is happening and I have no ill will toward Asian-americans because what do they have to do with what the Chinese government did? And I think it is important to remember how many people have suffered due to China, even the people trying to warn the world. Those doctors and such..."disappeared". There are reasons for that. I chose to reassess how I saw things and not grow the seeds. Someone else may choose to water them and grow them in great supply.

But that's my 2 cents now.

 

[The Cat]

It had to be done...

 

[anticlimatic]

Racism is just the most superficial form of bigotry, and prejudice is just the place where ego meets ignorance. Bigotry is extremely pervasive and hard to detect within ones self, but it is the fountainhead of racism, which is its symptom. Until bigotry can be dealt with in a genuine way, racism will always flourish among the least intelligent can-only-see-the-most-superficial-elements-of-things among us. The ease with which racism can be noticed, however, contributes to the perpetuation of the underlying cause. Many people who make pointing out racism their life's calling completely fail to address the underlying bigotry that they share with the very racists they target, and actually inadvertently grow bigotry overall.

 

[Maou]

May I suggest I disagree with this sentiment?

I've struggled some with family since entering the "big grand world" because as I experienced more people, I realized, which some people may not be willing to reassess, that the fear my grandfather attempted to instill in me about certain races and cultures, were not the full representation of a culture, and not the identity of that culture. I've met some very kind, intelligent black people. My favorite teacher is an immigrant from South Korea. I met some actual muslims, and they actually did not care I was a Christian at all. They were more like me, who felt as long as you are spiritual it is a positive thing. We would even discuss sometimes part of our faith that really aligned. I got to hear one of them's refugee story which crushed my heart, and gave me the realization that Muslims suffer from the issues over there too, they did not all become part of the war. If you talk to my grandfather, he still has his views of blacks, of muslims, and etc. and I have to leave because I cannot deal with it anymore because I reassessed and realized just how wrong he is based on reality. He is taking a section of people and defining the whole. Prejudice is so easy to succumb to. But maybe I wouldn't have been nervous about meeting an Islamic person when I was 18 if my grandfather had not told me they would cut my head off for being a Christian. I'm sure a section of them would, but that isn't the whole.

I think racism is a seed that is planted by an environment, and it is your choice whether or not you grow it. I do not think you can automatically go "well my parents!" because that is you lacking accountability for your choice. I have seen what is happening and I have no ill will toward Asian-americans because what do they have to do with what the Chinese government did? And I think it is important to remember how many people have suffered due to China, even the people trying to warn the world. Those doctors and such..."disappeared". There are reasons for that. I chose to reassess how I saw things and not grow the seeds. Someone else may choose to water them and grow them in great supply.

But that's my 2 cents now.

To clarify, you are disagreeing with the statement that racism is organic/naturally occurring correct?

I think the definition of "Racism" is far to vague, and misrepresents the core aspect of what it actually is. I personally do not think people hate those of another race, simply due to appearance. It is far more complicated. I believe it is related to mannerisms, culture, and values. Often times people lump Xenophobia together with racism. Racism itself is just a form of xenophobia extended to the entire group of people. You'd be far fetched to find a racist who hates people just for being a certain race, and not hating them based on certain behaviors instead. So if you take culture into account, more than race. You will see why groups of people dislike each other.

For example, one culture might think speaking up and standing out is embarrassing, and rude. While another might see it as normal. What happens when these two groups are together? General avoidance, annoyance, and pressure to change and convert the other side. Then they will polarize, and demonize the other group. They will see negatives in other behaviors, and one group will teach their kids the other group is loud and obnoxious, while the other group teaches their kids that the quiet people are spineless and cowardly. So in a way, it is both organic, and environmental. But it all starts with tribalism, and human nature; that we really are not aware that we even partake in because its instinctual.

The root of racism is essentially a web of these things, so intertwined throughout human civilization and history. That it isn't going to come undone by telling people to be nice. This is why I have been against things like multiculturalism, because it promotes things like racism, xenophobia, and community distrust. Because even in multicultural societies, the groups segregate themselves. Because they only trust themselves. People disagree on the best approach to something, and that is all that is needed to create racism, xenophobia, and hatred. I also feel it important to not generalize an entire group, based on what prominent figures say. I stick to my rule of judging people as individuals, but even then it is difficult to not feel some sort of impulse to generalize. Alas, it is what it means to be human in my opinion. An endless struggle.

As for China, I especially do not see all Asians as "Chinese". Nor do I think, of all the countries, does this government represent it's people. Because it's a Technocratic communist dictatorship. The people are a victim of their situation, and the government doesn't take any measures against lack of education, poverty, and safety concerns at all. That is why Hong Kong is still protesting, even during the Corona virus outbreak.

I also have to point out, that I think the whole "People are hating on Chinese, due to Corona" is probably a fabricated controversy, and blown out of proportion. Since there will always be a number of hate crimes, regardless of what is going on in the world. The media will make these out to be new (relying on your ignorance), to manufacture outrage. Which could however, inspire more hate crimes. They do this all the time. Remember bathsalts making people into zombies? Remember Metal being Satanic? They did the same shit with that, whenever there is a serious moral concern. Just life before the internet was oh so much more boring lol.

 

[á´…eparted]

Why would anyone listen to a Trump or GOP supporter on what they have to say and think about racism

 

[Lark]

Racism against blacks is universal in most parts of the world iirc. They are subject to the most hate in many countries. Even in Africa, they have tribalism against certain groups. China is no different. This isn't a new thing. Anyone saying it is, is trying to create controversy for money in the current pandemic.

Racism is natural and spontaneous, because humans are tribal animals. Doesn't matter where, or against what. It will always exist. China has been exploiting African resources and treating Africas like animals. That is why there is racism between the two now. China is rapidly gaining control of buisness in Africa, and trading with themselves back in the mainland. Not really an issue of trade interference.

I really dislike the idea that it is taught/cultural. Because even in cultures where it is hammered into you that it is bad. It still exists. I think it is part of human nature, so it will always exist prominently in human society.

I dont think racism is natural or spontaneous at all, I got no time for it and as we never grew up with it in our household we never became racist ourselves.

I've encountered racism towards myself but generally it is by people who're weak and pathetic themselves so I dont worry a great deal about it. Unfortunately its something which influences the rich and powerful and therefore's there's structural oppression which is something that I'm more concerned about and crime.

When I've experienced racism, whether its structural injustice or hateful behaviour, I never thought it'd be a good idea to mirror it, that would make absolutely no sense what so ever. If you want to put a fire out you do it with water not more fire.

 

[Lark]

To clarify, you are disagreeing with the statement that racism is organic/naturally occurring correct?

I think the definition of "Racism" is far to vague, and misrepresents the core aspect of what it actually is. I personally do not think people hate those of another race, simply due to appearance. It is far more complicated. I believe it is related to mannerisms, culture, and values. Often times people lump Xenophobia together with racism. Racism itself is just a form of xenophobia extended to the entire group of people. You'd be far fetched to find a racist who hates people just for being a certain race, and not hating them based on certain behaviors instead. So if you take culture into account, more than race. You will see why groups of people dislike each other.

For example, one culture might think speaking up and standing out is embarrassing, and rude. While another might see it as normal. What happens when these two groups are together? General avoidance, annoyance, and pressure to change and convert the other side. Then they will polarize, and demonize the other group. They will see negatives in other behaviors, and one group will teach their kids the other group is loud and obnoxious, while the other group teaches their kids that the quiet people are spineless and cowardly. So in a way, it is both organic, and environmental. But it all starts with tribalism, and human nature; that we really are not aware that we even partake in because its instinctual.

The root of racism is essentially a web of these things, so intertwined throughout human civilization and history. That it isn't going to come undone by telling people to be nice. This is why I have been against things like multiculturalism, because it promotes things like racism, xenophobia, and community distrust. Because even in multicultural societies, the groups segregate themselves. Because they only trust themselves. People disagree on the best approach to something, and that is all that is needed to create racism, xenophobia, and hatred. I also feel it important to not generalize an entire group, based on what prominent figures say. I stick to my rule of judging people as individuals, but even then it is difficult to not feel some sort of impulse to generalize. Alas, it is what it means to be human in my opinion. An endless struggle.

As for China, I especially do not see all Asians as "Chinese". Nor do I think, of all the countries, does this government represent it's people. Because it's a Technocratic communist dictatorship. The people are a victim of their situation, and the government doesn't take any measures against lack of education, poverty, and safety concerns at all. That is why Hong Kong is still protesting, even during the Corona virus outbreak.

I also have to point out, that I think the whole "People are hating on Chinese, due to Corona" is probably a fabricated controversy, and blown out of proportion. Since there will always be a number of hate crimes, regardless of what is going on in the world. The media will make these out to be new (relying on your ignorance), to manufacture outrage. Which could however, inspire more hate crimes. They do this all the time. Remember bathsalts making people into zombies? Remember Metal being Satanic? They did the same shit with that, whenever there is a serious moral concern. Just life before the internet was oh so much more boring lol.

Have you ever thought about how racism does harm to anyone or any society that professes it?

At the genetic level it reduces biodiversity and increases the incidences of genetic malformations, entropy and disease.

If you want to ruin a family line or a society it is something which you would encourage, foster or at least sabotage any attempt at undoing its influence. So it comes as no surprise that there would be people who do not profess it themselves who would encourage it in others that they want to come to harm or go into decline by doing so.

That's quite aside from all the social conflict or turmoil that develops on the back of racism.

The narrowing of tastes or range of choice and options, which is a self abdicating of freedom, is always a bad thing and as bad things go people DO wish them on their enemies and some of those enemies dont appreciate that very much.

 

[Lark]

Why would anyone listen to a Trump or GOP supporter on what they have to say and think about racism

Well its useful to repeat to them, even if they dont want to hear it or doubt its true, that racism is all about the harm and that their enemies will not loose much sleep about them holding views that harm them, their families, their legacies and their societies.

Its simple really, if you want someone to harm themselves you dont present it to them as harm, you present it as something which is great really, at present you might present it as a taboo, and then people will adopt it in droves. You've succeeded in inflicting a defeat on them without even firing a shot. You know?