[INTJ] The Official INTJ Haters' Thread

[Kiddo]

Hey! This is suppose to be the "INTJ Hater's" thread.

Being fallible is an advantage. If you can't see when you are wrong you obviously can't correct yourself.

We already covered that. Often INTJs will simply "shift" themselves into being right. That way they never have to admit to themselves that they were ever wrong.

By taking something like fallibleness in people in that light the emotional response of feeling bad about it is much less powerful and you are less likely to have the negative effects from your initial failure.

I don't think a lot of INTJs see it that way. If they did then they wouldn't be so insistent on never appearing wrong, at least in their own minds.

All perspective is, is the distortion that comes into effect when your brain examines things. Without it personality wouldn't exist and being able to understand it and control it is a huge advantage in my opinion.

That is an interesting way to put it. Although, it isn't "if" a person controls perspective, but "how" they control it. Everyone has the capacity to control their perspective, but I notice many INTJs twist their perspective to preserve their ego, which seems to often put them on the verge of psychosis, if not narcissistically delusional.

Though being INTJ I must just be distorting my own perspective (which is the result of natural distortion) into thinking you can benefit by correcting yourself and taking failure as a strength over a weakness.

Ah, but the question is if that is how you actually behave. If you are actually continually aiming to never be wrong, but you believe that you are always "correcting yourself and taking failure as a strength over a weakness," then you are indeed living in a distorted reality. It is often the case with INTJs, that they genuinely believe that they are acting one way, when in reality they are acting another. They believe they are "correcting themselves" when in reality, they are actually aiming to never be wrong. However, I don't know enough about you to say if that is true in your case.

Though of course your opinion comes from the idea of people not acknowledging their mistakes in the first place. Which if it is the case of course they can't use their own fallibility to their advantage.

That is true. Of course, the problem with many INTJs isn't "acknowledging mistakes" but realizing they are making them. If they are behaving one way, but continually shifting reality in their mind so they believe they are behaving another way, then they will never realize that they are even making mistakes. If they don't realize they make them, then they can never acknowledge them. Hence, it can be a waltz with psychosis.

 

[Haphazard]

Are you sure that you're not just seeing an INTJ behaving badly socially? You know, as they are apt to do.

An INTJ may realize that they said something wrong and be so embarassed that they desperately try to save face by pretending that it wasn't a mistake. Even though they knew it was wrong, well, to a lot of INTJs being wrong is something that leads to a lot of torment -- a lot of friends and family exploiting the fact that they were wrong once, showing it off as a badge of honor. They know they're wrong and they don't want to be reminded of it.

Still a personality flaw (maybe if they didn't try to cover up mistakes so much like this, people wouldn't feel like they could exploit this as weakness?), but not quite the the one you're thinking of.

 

[Kiddo]

Are you sure that you're not just seeing an INTJ behaving badly socially? You know, as they are apt to do.

An INTJ may realize that they said something wrong and be so embarassed that they desperately try to save face by pretending that it wasn't a mistake. Even though they knew it was wrong, well, to a lot of INTJs being wrong is something that leads to a lot of torment -- a lot of friends and family exploiting the fact that they were wrong once, showing it off as a badge of honor. They know they're wrong and they don't want to be reminded of it.

Still a personality flaw (maybe if they didn't try to cover up mistakes so much like this, people wouldn't feel like they could exploit this as weakness?), but not quite the the one you're thinking of.

Well this is the "INTJ Haters" thread. I'm only making generalizations from intuitive leaps based on what I have observed from online individuals who identify themselves as INTJs. It disturbs me that some of these individuals seem to genuinely believe they have not made any mistakes, to the point of seeming delusional about how they actually relate to reality.

 

[Haphazard]

Well this is the "INTJ Haters" thread. I'm only making generalizations from intuitive leaps based on what I have observed from online individuals who identify themselves as INTJs. It disturbs me that some of these individuals seem to genuinely believe they have not made any mistakes, to the point of seeming delusional about how they actually relate to reality.

Or maybe this is just me, mind you. Whenever I'm wrong about something completely obvious I have a tendency to turn beet red and shut down because I know that other people will perceive the failure as 'cute' and it will completely ruin my credibility for the next few days, and will provide the observers with embarrassing stories about me for years to come.

The fact is is that if you're only speaking from online experience, it may be somebody trying to avoid this, but online you can't see the blushing or hear the wavering of their voice.

I have a feeling that INFJs would have an easier time being wrong with grace than an INTJ.

 

[Kiddo]

I have a feeling that INFJs would have an easier time being wrong with grace than an INTJ.

Perhaps. Of course I am never wrong, so it's never an issue for me.

 

[TheLastMohican]

Perhaps. Of course I am never wrong, so it's never an issue for me.

Seriously, that is what makes it difficult for me to judge such a flaw. I cannot remember an instance in which I was undoubtedly wrong on a point.

But I'm pretty young yet, so it'll happen eventually...I guess.

 

[Kiddo]

I wonder if I would trade the INFJ's greatest weakness, "personally caring about things even when they are unimportant" for the INTJ's greatest weakness, "not being aware of mistakes and thus incapable of acknowledging them." They both seem kinda equally shitty.

 

[Haphazard]

I wonder if I would trade the INFJ's greatest weakness, "personally caring about things even when they are unimportant" for the INTJ's greatest weakness, "not being aware of mistakes and thus incapable of acknowledging them." They both seem kinda equally shitty.

No, both of their major flaws are in the 'magical perspective shifts' that they can do. The shift has nothing wrong or right about it, as in wrong or right have nothing to do with anything involved with the shift, but it's obnoxious for other people involved. Most people either shift the object or refuse to shift and simply go head-to-head, while Ni insists on the seamless shift of one's self, which makes the INJ appear terribly flawed or arrogant to the outside world.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

I wonder if I would trade the INFJ's greatest weakness, "personally caring about things even when they are unimportant" for the INTJ's greatest weakness, "not being aware of mistakes and thus incapable of acknowledging them." They both seem kinda equally shitty.

I'm sure both are controllable, to some degree. There are some things I'm alright with being wrong about. There are some other things that make me go Beet Red like Haphazard said. Often my reaction, to a realized wrongness, is to totally lock up in shame and self disappointment, and I completely lose my sense of competence or "footing" in my life. At the time it can feel sort of devastating, depending on the specifics surrounding it.

But, in my case, I eventually learned that ignoring my mistakes wasn't doing me any favors. Though the idea of owning up to some things still makes me want to flee, sometimes...

I don't think we're necessarily always right. I've put forth some baseless arguments just for the hell of it (usually in my moments of stress/imbalance). Often, in these times, I just feel like being contentious for the hell of it, and I don't put much thought into my reasonings, and I reduce outside/ more sensible views as being "stupid" So in my case, I don't think I'm always right. I usually like to try and estimate my percentage of potential accuracy, except in moments where I just don't care enough about things to maintain this practice. I've entertained some pretty vague or sketchy notions, at times, and for no apparent or coherent reason. And often this fills me with a sense of shame or regret. But I tend to recognize this possible tendency. I've become a bit more cautious about some of my more head-strong qualities, and in general have become more even tempered and understanding since those days. But that's due to some spiritual-ey things I underwent when I was younger, where I got a bit more in touch with my "core" and the feelings of weakness and helplessness I used to try to bury.

So, I don't know. I think at first, for many INTJ's their CC only harms them socially (Closed minded certitude, thanks for the term, Economica). I admit part of it is image consciousness. I don't like the idea of me being a person who puts others out, or is a pain to deal with. I'm into the whole self improvement thing, and I'm not entirely set on holding on to my current personality/habits. Some things can just be unpleasant in certain contexts, not everything is suited to every situation. Social situations aren't entirely based on the correctness of opinion or argument. Respect and kindness tend to be more conducive. I mean, most people don't discuss controversial topics in lighter or more social situations. I think this is generally logical. Especially, as has been said before, if someone holds a strong conviction as INTJs often do. Conviction is very controversial. Part of us always expects a person to be led astray by conviction, perhaps lead to their own demise by it. Another part of us raises it to mystical heights, where conviction can lead a person to overcome overwhelming adversity, or whatever.

Blah I'm totally going on a tangent. Sorry, I tend to do this. The point is, I'm open to the possibility of being wrong. It can potentially make me more humble, and humility is something I respect very much. Since I hold to it in this idealistic fashion, I have more of an internal basis to put forth the effort in being more open to being wrong or flawed. I suppose it does kind of act contrary to some familiar aspects of my thinking, but if I have a higher philosophy supporting it, then it becomes much easier to aspire to more humility, in my thought and action/conduct.

 

[Kiddo]

No, both of their major flaws are in the 'magical perspective shifts' that they can do. The shift has nothing wrong or right about it, as in wrong or right have nothing to do with anything involved with the shift, but it's obnoxious for other people involved. Most people either shift the object or refuse to shift and simply go head-to-head, while Ni insists on the seamless shift of one's self, which makes the INJ appear terribly flawed or arrogant to the outside world.

Hm...interesting point. I think such a readily observable phenomenon needs a name. I hereby declare that such 'magical perspective shifts' will henceforth be known as "OmNi Shifts". Mainly because it seems to be restricted to Dominant Ni types. Combined with closed minded certitude, OmNi Shifts can be exceptionally dangerous to an individual's psyche.

It seems clear to me that most INXJs are almost always going to shine themselves in the best possible light regardless of how they actually behave. But this is simply an example of "having your cake and eating it too," because they never have to admit that they are violating the principles they claim to uphold as long as they can OmNi shift their behaviors.

I could therefore argue that I'm the type of person who is always "open to the possibility of being wrong," when I simply always OmNi shift my way out of any discussion where I am wrong so I don't have to acknowledge that I was wrong. Therefore in my own mind, I didn't violate my principle "being open to the possibility of being wrong," even though I was wrong and I simply shifted my perception to avoid acknowledging it. It seems to be a perfect ego defense mechanism and the only downside is INXJs can't OmNi shift other people's perceptions so they end up looking arrogant as a result.

 

[umop_3pisdn]

I could therefore argue that I'm the type of person who is always "open to the possibility of being wrong," when I simply always OmNi shift my way out of any discussion where I am wrong so I don't have to acknowledge that I was wrong. Therefore in my own mind, I didn't violate my principle "being open to the possibility of being wrong," even though I was wrong and I simply shifted my perception to avoid acknowledging it. It seems to be a perfect ego defense mechanism and the only downside is INXJs can't OmNi shift other people's perceptions so they end up looking arrogant as a result.

You're right. But I think it makes us look more credible if we more readily admit our wrongness. And not necessarily to be viewed in a negative or shameful light, as being too self-deprecating does anything but inspire confidence... Perhaps ideally stated in a more logical or impartial way. Recognizing it for what it is, noting it for the future, and moving on. Mistaken interpretations are just mistakes. They have to be made sometimes. But I think, as a type, we're perhaps more prone to internalizing them. It's often easier to admit it to myself that I am wrong, and allow it to eat me up inside, than it is to admit it publicly. But, as was said, we often like to project the "best" image possible. Most people are actually appreciative of some level of humanness/fallibility. It's a hard habit to shake, though.

People tend to respect me more when I'm willing to admit that they are right and I am wrong. Image consciousness can motivate me to maintain humility in some things I find to be more mundane or outside my interests, in the times when it's otherwise hard to maintain the motivation. Other times, it's about honoring the other person. If they are right, they sort of deserve to be recognized for it. I enjoy being recognized for my insight whenever I happen to be "right", and I think they deserve the same. If they shed new insight on a topic, and it appeals to my perspective, I do often instantaneously adopt the new perspective without a second thought. But I still tend to recognize it as originating from an outside influence, and I respect the person it came from. Even if it means admitting to incorrectness on my part, I will admit to it very readily if I'm shown, via new information, to clearly be in the "wrong". The shift is somewhat instantaneous, but I still have an initial feeling of "whoops, my bad, time to revise", and an appreciation for this new insight.

 

[Haphazard]

Certain forms of wrongness are more easily admittable than others -- I mean, if you parked in a different parking garage than the one you're poking around in is the wrong one, you're very obviously going to have to move and look in a different one to find your car.

Anything different from that, though, and things get a little stickier. It may be something that's mostly determined by popular opinion (and face it, since when have INTJs ever cared about that?) or if it's one particular piece of evidence that doesn't look like it quite matches a theory, the INTJ will try to bend it so that it fits or outright ignore it.

If there's something to be gained if the INTJ happens to be right, then they might stick to what appears to be a stupid position for a very long time, like in a class when they believe that their answer 'could' be right but the teacher says otherwise (in this case, it's a matter of points, which the INTJ may need.) Also, if it seems to the INTJ a 'subjective' manner until proven otherwise, they may retain a position under the rationalization that the other person's point of view has as much to do with their own biases as their own opinion does, but because the other person has no idea what the INTJ has done in their life, the INTJ has a right to his own subjective opinion about what works best in his personal experience.

INTJs probably consider themselves flexible because they look at the past and they see how much they've improved and changed over time, while outsiders see them as inflexible because of the way they have the habit of arguing and sticking with point of views whenever there is another one that is considered 'right' by popular standard. INJs are pretty difficult to deal with because they don't naturally conform to any 'truth' they see in the world and also they won't conform simply to have a common standard with other people.

I think the fundamental problem with ANY INJ hate thread is the nature of Ni. It may see flaws in how something reacts with something else, but each action by itself is meaningless. For INTJs, it just gets worse because rather than 'hating' anything they just go on tearing apart behavior and just have too much of the attitude, 'People hate us for X, Y, and Z reasons, but if we look at it THIS way, there appears to be nothing wrong with that, or the only reason it's wrong is because of THIS perspective. Otherwise it's just stuff that happens. Only change when it becomes a visible problem'

ad nauseum.

 

[Kiddo]

Ok, new topic.

INTJs suck because they love talking about themselves so much.

(I actually find this trait endearing to a degree.)

 

[Haphazard]

Ok, new topic.

INTJs suck because they love talking about themselves so much.

(I actually find this trait endearing to a degree.)

It's true. We do.

 

[mippus]

But so do other types (when in doubt, visit INTPc )

 

[Works]

I get along pretty well with most INTJs, especially the women. I think most of it has to do with a mutual respect of intelligence and thought process.

 

[Annuit Coeptis]

that pesky Ni which jumps to conclusions based on very little information.

And they seem to be not only unwilling, but unable to mold their environment- to a much greater degree than INTP's, at least in my limited experience. I never understood why my very intelligent brother felt the need to follow the status quo to a T. He is unwilling to bend on the "big issues," sometimes regardless of sound evidence.

In the INTJ defense, though- I do love the way that they "deconstruct" information, if they are willing to...

 

[TheLastMohican]

All right, thanks to Kiddo for getting us back on topic. But the "invisible" text was a backward step.

Yes, INTJ's talk about themselves a lot. But is this relevant to INTJ's specifically? It seems that that is just a trait of most humans. What makes it an INTJ trait?

Also, I'd like some ideas about this: Why are there so few people commenting here (especially seeing how many of these are INTJ's themselves)? Are INTJ's not as hated as they seem?

 

[Haphazard]

Also, I'd like some ideas about this: Why are there so few people commenting here (especially seeing how many of these are INTJ's themselves)? Are INTJ's not as hated as they seem?

I think most people here understand by now that the greatest insult to an INTJ is to not have critique rather than to have the harshest critique imaginable. It's much less time consuming and much more effective to insult us with silence than with words.

 

[TheLastMohican]

I think most people here understand by now that the greatest insult to an INTJ is to not have critique rather than to have the harshest critique imaginable. It's much less time consuming and much more effective to insult us with silence than with words.

But then the silence becomes that harshest critique, so it defeats its own purpose.