The Dangerous Case Of Donald Trump

[ceecee]

Excuse me for trying to change approaches. And no, while I may be defensive. I actually make efforts to change an adapt. What is wrong with that? I am not good with words. I am terrible at debates. So the least I can do is learn to ask questions.

You have said that before and you revert back to the same attitude. You have told others here that poverty is their own fault, although MANY people in the center and the right hold that opinion, hatred of the poor is very real. If you are actually concerned with the poor and working class, then act like it. But that means you will have to give a shit about people, I suspect, you don't see beyond being a burden to you, simply by breathing the same air as you.

 

[The Cat]

Would it shock you to say I've never seen Alien?

Nope. It would not shock me in the least.

 

[Jaguar]

Why do you support these policies?

Two people can come from vastly different financial backgrounds and still support the same, or similar, policies but for different reasons. "Invest 500,000.00 and immigrate to the United States." How does that quote strike you? Me? It pisses me off. While you're looking at poor people, I look at how wealthy fraudsters are gaming the system and I find it far more dangerous than some poverty-stricken family fleeing a shit hole country steeped in drugs and crime who want nothing more than to live in America in peace.

The potential damage to national security is massive:
The $500,000 Green Card | The EB-5 Visa Program - ABC News
Whistleblowers: US Gave Visas to Suspected Forgers, Fraudsters, Criminals - ABC News

 

[Maou]

You have said that before and you revert back to the same attitude. You have told others here that poverty is their own fault, although MANY people in the center and the right hold that opinion, hatred of the poor is very real. If you are actually concerned with the poor and working class, then act like it. But that means you will have to give a shit about people, I suspect, you don't see beyond being a burden to you, simply by breathing the same air as you.

I don't think anyone actually cares outside their immediate surroundings truthfully. They do it to feel good, not actually help long term. I am realistic, and cynical yes. But not by choice. My own circumstances prevent me from changing at any particular speed. Regression is part of change. The core of my position is the belief in whether of not you are responsible for your own survival. Since I took my survival and life into my own hands, and made it better with my effort and without assisstance. I firmly believe it works, as a default. I think we should promote this mindset while also allowing assistance. No one hates poor people for being poor they hate poor people for not choosing to better themselves, and squandering assisstance on drugs and alcohol. I think mental health is a much larger concern that will directly prevent homelessness and other issues. Keeping families in tact, and changing culture thst promotes single moms.

You can give a man a fish, and feed him for a day. Or you can teach him how to fish, and feed him for the rest of his life.

 

[Jaguar]

Who hates poor people? Man, this place is getting sicker by the day. *places two paddles on the chest of America* CLEAR!

 

[Maou]

Two people can come from vastly different financial backgrounds and still support the same, or similar, policies but for different reasons. "Invest 500,000.00 and immigrate to the United States." How does that quote strike you? Me? It pisses me off. While you're looking at poor people, I look at how wealthy fraudsters are gaming the system and I find it far more dangerous than some poverty-stricken family fleeing a shit hole country steeped in drugs and crime who want nothing more than to live in America in peace.

The potential damage to national security is massive:
The $500,000 Green Card | The EB-5 Visa Program - ABC News
Whistleblowers: US Gave Visas to Suspected Forgers, Fraudsters, Criminals - ABC News

It angers me too. They should wait their turn, and go through the same checks and balances as normal people.

But I also don't think everyone should be allowed in just because. I think they should have skills etc to guve to USA. Citizenship should be a privilege.

 

[Lexicon]

No one hates poor people for being poor they hate poor people for not choosing to better themselves, and squandering assisstance on drugs and alcohol.

That really speaks volumes, & it’s more than disheartening that this sort of inaccurate perception likely does influence the hatred of people who are beyond out of touch.

Who are all these people with substance abuse problems gaming the system? Most with serious issues like that are too dysfunctional day-to-day to even attempt to apply for any kind of assistance, let alone make it to recertification interviews, etc. The vast majority of people on assistance don’t squander it, & they actually need it. I’d really like to know where these absolute assumptions come from on your end.

 

[Maou]

That really speaks volumes, & it’s more than disheartening that this sort of inaccurate perception likely does influence the hatred of people who are beyond out of touch.

Who are all these people with substance abuse problems gaming the system? Most with serious issues like that are too dysfunctional day-to-day to even attempt to apply for any kind of assistance, let alone make it to recertification interviews, etc. The vast majority of people on assistance don’t squander it, & they actually need it. I’d really like to know where these absolute assumptions come from on your end.

Lets make a distintion between homeless and very poor. The people who squander help the most, in the form of handouts, are homeless people. Poor or struggling, not so much, but some do. I grew up in that enviroment, you cannot tell me that these people don't trade foodstamps for drugs. You can't tell me some parents let their kids starve as they get drunk. People themselves, are part of the problem. You could have a perfect system, and someone will still fail and fuck it up. Yet free to abuse your empathy.

 

[Lexicon]

Lets make a distintion between homeless and very poor. The people who squander help the most, in the form of handouts, are homeless people. Poor or struggling, not so much, but some do. I grew up in that enviroment, you cannot tell me that these people don't trade foodstamps for drugs. You can't tell me some parents let their kids starve as they get drunk. People themselves, are part of the problem. You could have a perfect system, and someone will still fail and fuck it up. Yet free to abuse your empathy.

No one’s saying that doesn’t happen. It’s unfortunate that it does, but that is a small percentage of the people on aid. I commented on your sweeping statement about poor people squandering help. It isn’t the first time you’ve gone on rants about that. You grew up in an unhealthy environment with low income. You’re still really not in the best position in life now (professionally, socially, etc), despite propping yourself up as some blue collar success.

I’m not saying that to be insulting. You do an honest day’s work, & there’s nothing wrong with taking pride in that. But you’re in no position to judge others the way you so often do. People whose lives you have no concept of. It’s markedly difficult to look down at those less fortunate when you’re pretty close to the bottom of the barrel yourself, by most standards. It’s honestly baffling to me that you even subscribe to some of the absolute narrow thinking that you do. Given your background, one would hope you’d grow to be a more compassionate, open-minded person.

 

[Maou]

No one’s saying that doesn’t happen. It’s unfortunate that it does, but that is a small percentage of the people on aid. I commented on your sweeping statement about poor people squandering help. It isn’t the first time you’ve gone on rants about that. You grew up in an unhealthy environment with low income. You’re still really not in the best position in life now (professionally, socially, etc), despite propping yourself up as some blue collar success.

I’m not saying that to be insulting. You do an honest day’s work, & there’s nothing wrong with taking pride in that. But you’re in no position to judge others the way you so often do. People whose lives you have no concept of. It’s markedly difficult to look down at those less fortunate when you’re pretty close to the bottom of the barrel yourself, by most standards. It’s honestly baffling to me that you even subscribe to some of the absolute narrow thinking that you do. Given your background, one would hope you’d grow to be a more compassionate, open-minded person.

I think that way because I am not compassionate, or idealistic. I am cynical and realistic. I don't think for a second this reality would change with the right policy the right people in charge. They are not "sweeping statements" either. I have lived in 4 different states in poverty, both red and blue. You just think the fighting type of poor person, like myself, is the majority. They're not. They are mostly the same culturally in poor neighborhoods. Just there are some cultural differences between the idea of family etc in minority communities.

As long as human nature exists, evolution, and competition does. It won't change. It isn't that I am incapable of compassion, I just know it isn't feasible to help everyone. But you know what helps more than help? The ability to help yourself, inner strength, perseverance. Make that easy, and the people who work hard will always succeed. You can take a poor person out of poverty but you cannot take poverty out of a once poor person. Because mindset plays a huge role, as well as culture. (Excluding disability). For example, 70+% of people who win the lottery go bankrupt quickly. If you do not have the knowledge, or desire to advance and look forward and learn to make things last. You will not succeed, no matter what you are given. A lot of people are taught to blame others for their problems, that they will never amount to anything, because their parents told them the same thing. So they never tried. My own parents said I would grow up to be a Walmart babymama. What separated me from my deadbeat siblings, was my ability to sacrifice "luxury" short term. To achieve long term results. I brought myself out of poverty without assistance from the government. Because apparently to qualify for foodstamps, I had to be a single mom. Didn't matter how much I didn't make. I realized quickly my mindset was HATED by everyone else in my immediate family, in my neighborhood. How dare I suggest saving money and quitting drinking to my parents, or friends parents. Hell, even suggesting cleaning the house was considered rude. This was not exclusive to my family. So many poor people are hoarders, or tweakers. Many blow money on short term experiences to get a dopamine hit, instead of improving their lives. How can you blame them? They're told they can't do jack shit. They lack confidence, and a sense of responsibility. Many are left with zero guidance, and as a result raise kids without proper guidance in a perpetual cycle. Aid, doesn't give that guidance. Aid just sticks a bandaid on the gaping wound and hopes it stops the bleeding. Y'all think helping these people will stop poor people from existing, it won't. They will always exist, so long as the mindset does.

 

[Yuurei]

No one’s saying that doesn’t happen. It’s unfortunate that it does, but that is a small percentage of the people on aid. I commented on your sweeping statement about poor people squandering help. It isn’t the first time you’ve gone on rants about that. You grew up in an unhealthy environment with low income. You’re still really not in the best position in life now (professionally, socially, etc), despite propping yourself up as some blue collar success.

I’m not saying that to be insulting. You do an honest day’s work, & there’s nothing wrong with taking pride in that. But you’re in no position to judge others the way you so often do. People whose lives you have no concept of. It’s markedly difficult to look down at those less fortunate when you’re pretty close to the bottom of the barrel yourself, by most standards. It’s honestly baffling to me that you even subscribe to some of the absolute narrow thinking that you do. Given your background, one would hope you’d grow to be a more compassionate, open-minded person.

This reminds me of something my husband once said;

That everyone ( or most) understand that yes, some people do take advantage of the system but the difference between democrats and republicans is that republicans are perfectly willing to throw innocent, truly struggling people under the buss to punish the guilty, and democrats aren’t.

This came up because I said that I am very aware that there are people who take advantage of government programs- and trust me, I hate them more than any conservative because they are the reason so people hate the rest of us, but also thatcI am not willing to screw over others in my situation to punish the bad ones.
My husband said this is what pushes me to just on the left. I’d agree with that.

 

[Maou]

This reminds me of something my husband once said;

That everyone ( or most) understand that yes, some people do take advantage of the system but the difference between democrats and republicans is that republicans are perfectly willing to throw innocent, truly struggling people under the buss to punish the guilty, and democrats aren’t.

This came up because I said that I am very aware that there are people who take advantage of government programs- and trust me, I hate them more than any conservative because they are the reason so people hate the rest of us, but also thatcI am not willing to screw over others in my situation to punish the bad ones.
My husband said this is what pushes me to just on the left. I’d agree with that.

Don't turn this into an us vs them issue, as there are poor people on both sides (apparently Republicans have more, sccording to the media who love to mock them). I already know you hate my mindset on poverty. But not once have I said fuck struggling people and punish the good ones. I just question the effectiveness of throwing money at a permanent problem, without aiming for effectiveness, and expecting it to get better. Also, I am not a Republican either. I am a right-leaning Liberal by definition.

I want a system the helps people, but also isn't abuseable by those who attempt to game the system. Which is hard to achieve regardless.

 

[The Cat]

 

[Virtual ghost]

US midterms 2018 live results


This is basically how things are at this point and where people left things in 2018. I really have the fetish on maps.
There seems to be plenty of seats that are potentially vulnerable.

 

[Lexicon]

I think that way because I am not compassionate, or idealistic. I am cynical and realistic. I don't think for a second this reality would change with the right policy the right people in charge. They are not "sweeping statements" either. I have lived in 4 different states in poverty, both red and blue. You just think the fighting type of poor person, like myself, is the majority. They're not. They are mostly the same culturally in poor neighborhoods. Just there are some cultural differences between the idea of family etc in minority communities.

What I think doesn’t come from passive judgmental experience. I’m friends with people in social work, & a close friend’s sister who works directly in health & human services. She works with people in poverty, every day. She’s an active part of processing & determining which individuals qualify for aid. The vast majority are the working poor. They just can’t make ends meet much of the time. Not every state requires you to be a parent to qualify for aid.

As long as human nature exists, evolution, and competition does. It won't change. It isn't that I am incapable of compassion, I just know it isn't feasible to help everyone. But you know what helps more than help? The ability to help yourself, inner strength, perseverance. Make that easy, and the people who work hard will always succeed. You can take a poor person out of poverty but you cannot take poverty out of a once poor person. Because mindset plays a huge role, as well as culture. (Excluding disability). For example, 70+% of people who win the lottery go bankrupt quickly. If you do not have the knowledge, or desire to advance and look forward and learn to make things last. You will not succeed, no matter what you are given. A lot of people are taught to blame others for their problems, that they will never amount to anything, because their parents told them the same thing. So they never tried. My own parents said I would grow up to be a Walmart babymama. What separated me from my deadbeat siblings, was my ability to sacrifice "luxury" short term. To achieve long term results. I brought myself out of poverty without assistance from the government. Because apparently to qualify for foodstamps, I had to be a single mom. Didn't matter how much I didn't make. I realized quickly my mindset was HATED by everyone else in my immediate family, in my neighborhood. How dare I suggest saving money and quitting drinking to my parents, or friends parents. Hell, even suggesting cleaning the house was considered rude. This was not exclusive to my family. So many poor people are hoarders, or tweakers. Many blow money on short term experiences to get a dopamine hit, instead of improving their lives. How can you blame them? They're told they can't do jack shit. They lack confidence, and a sense of responsibility. Many are left with zero guidance, and as a result raise kids without proper guidance in a perpetual cycle. Aid, doesn't give that guidance. Aid just sticks a bandaid on the gaping wound and hopes it stops the bleeding.

Not to downplay your ability to take care of yourself (commendable & absolutely worth being proud of) despite the unsupportive environment you were raised in— but how exactly is working at a gas station any more superior than someone doing an honest day’s work at a Walmart (regardless of whether or not someone is a ‘babymama’)? Like I said, how’s that view from the ‘bottom’? These ego defense mechanisms to paint yourself as some working class success story— particularly above others who for the most part are doing their best to survive as well— is just confusing to me. You can’t possibly know the lives of countless poor people, yet you insist you do.

Everyone I know who works directly with poor people daily — has real insight into their lives— says otherwise. It’s obvious projection on your part, likely because they superficially remind you of dysfunctional people from your unfortunate past, who tried to hold you back. Sure, unemployed hoarders/tweakers/etc do exist, but like I said, they tend to be the minority on aid. You repeatedly put down complete strangers to compensate for your own internal lack, to further convince yourself & the world that you’ve risen above where you came from. There is nothing successful or resilient about that kind of behavior. You can be proud of working hard without assuming/claiming others who came from similar places simply aren’t trying as hard as you have. You cannot possibly know that thousands (if not more) aren’t doing whatever they can to survive & better their situations.

Pride in one’s work & getting yourself above the poverty line isn’t automatically rewarded with omniscience by the universe. That’s merely textbook cognitive bias (fundamental attribution error) at work, nothing more.

Y'all think helping these people will stop poor people from existing, it won't. They will always exist, so long as the mindset does.

What?
I don’t think helping the poor will stop poor people from existing. That makes no sense. This is yet another example of your inability to understand the thoughts, motivations, & inner lives of those around you— something you have acknowledged yourself that you have difficulty with. It might be worth reflecting on how that may color your point of view & how you draw some of the conclusions you do.

 

[ceecee]

This reminds me of something my husband once said;

That everyone ( or most) understand that yes, some people do take advantage of the system but the difference between democrats and republicans is that republicans are perfectly willing to throw innocent, truly struggling people under the buss to punish the guilty, and democrats aren’t.

This came up because I said that I am very aware that there are people who take advantage of government programs- and trust me, I hate them more than any conservative because they are the reason so people hate the rest of us, but also thatcI am not willing to screw over others in my situation to punish the bad ones.
My husband said this is what pushes me to just on the left. I’d agree with that.

The wealthy take the most advantage of government programs. This is also one reason they have the resources to buy legislators to continue passing laws in their favor. Some buy entire state legislation to control it (See Betsy DeVos). They also have the power to end social programs for the people that need it by influencing the lawmakers to just cut these programs and make people stand on their own two feet! Sound familiar? Or perhaps use the "help" from their family foundations and charities.

I have no idea why so many people are unwilling to acknowledge that they - not the woman in front of you in the checkout using food stamps - are the real problem. So if I had to vote based on that, I would choose the single candidate actually calling out the wealthy cronyism and graft. Not the ones welcoming it with open arms.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

US midterms 2018 live results


This is basically how things are at this point and where people left things in 2018. I really have the fetish on maps.
There seems to be plenty of seats that are potentially vulnerable.

We should do a thread for election maps. I like playing with the interactive electoral college maps to design crazy but not impossible scenarios/outcomes.

The electoral college sucks but it makes for fun speculative mapping.

Unrelated note, in the event we have an outcome similar to 2016, but reversed (say dems lose popular vote but still win electoral college votes), will the Republicans suddenly be crying about the unfairness of this system? (always the losing parties who seem to suddenly call for the abolition of the electoral college, yet are fine with keeping it when it works in their favor). Imagine the memes that will no doubt come out of both sides if this happens

 

[Virtual ghost]

We should do a thread for election maps. I like playing with the interactive electoral college maps to design crazy but not impossible scenarios/outcomes.

The electoral college sucks but it makes for fun speculative mapping.

Unrelated note, in the event we have an outcome similar to 2016, but reversed (say dems lose popular vote but still win electoral college votes), will the Republicans suddenly be crying about the unfairness of this system? (always the losing parties who seem to suddenly call for the abolition of the electoral college, yet are fine with keeping it when it works in their favor). Imagine the memes that will no doubt come out of both sides if this happens

Well, my country has such maps but doesn't have the actual electoral college in presidential elections. Because even if you end electoral college you simply end up with various regions that still lean this way or another. Therefore the map stays, it is just that it isn't divided into artificial units. Plus instead of the delegates popular vote of the country wins in the end.


However for the parliament we have division into regions, which are all generally of at last similar population size. Which then split seats among how much vote each party won (since there is about 15 fully active parties). However the real show is after elections: when you need to make a 50% majority out of that, since smaller parties can gather and overpower a big one.



Even for EU parliament elections you have divisions into member countries, each chooses their own MPs and the number of seats is relatively proportional to the population of the member country. Therefore how much of popular vote a party has that much of a chunk they get in the seats of their country. Plus to make it easy to sum the results and arguments parties are divided into 7 blocks plus some independents, so that similar parties from various countries make a single block that stands for x,y or z. Fundamentally this IS electoral college that is based on popular vote.



Klick on "Change to map view" and you will get the idea quickly. (if you care)

European Parliament Elections 2019



Therefore this election map fun can be there even if you do things on some other way. Politics is fundamentally about divisions, especially in democracies.

 

[Tellenbach]

After Attending a Trump Rally, I Realized Democrats Are Not Ready For 2020

Democrats have an ass-kicking coming to them in November, and I think most of them will be utterly shocked when it happens.

And the biggest question of all was this: Did I hate Trump so much that I wanted to see my country fail just to spite him and everyone who voted for him?

A Dem lady attends a Trump rally and discovers that Trump supporters are not racist, homophobic, xenophobic, islamophobic, misogynist bigots.

But she still voted for Mayor Pete in the primary so she's not completely woke yet. Baby steps, but we'll take it. Congrats for escaping the Dem echo chamber.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

After Attending a Trump Rally, I Realized Democrats Are Not Ready For 2020





A Dem lady attends a Trump rally and discovers that Trump supporters are not racist, homophobic, xenophobic, islamophobic, misogynist bigots.

But she still voted for Mayor Pete in the primary so she's not completely woke yet. Baby steps, but we'll take it. Congrats for escaping the Dem echo chamber.

I watched a lot of MSNBC, was convinced that everything he had done was horrible, that he hated anyone who wasn’t a straight white man, and that he had no redeeming qualities.

This was her problem right here. MSNBC loves Trump's election because it's very good for business. It's also all they report on most of the time. The amount of time they devote to his tweets is phenomenal. Also, she was enmeshed deeply in the web of "cancel" social media, which admittedly is extremely toxic.