The Dangerous Case Of Donald Trump

[Z Buck McFate]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1448056966119632898

Can't figure out how to insert a video from Twitter, but this woman describes the harassment of public school employees from the mindless Fox/OAN horde.

I would love to see a journalist go around a MAGA parking area and calmly explain exactly what these people are "so sick of" and what they "aren't going to take anymore." Like Jordan Klepper does, except not a comedian who is there to make fun of them; someone should earnestly ask them, and try to get them the break down their vague talking points into specifics. I bet almost anything no one would be able to get a cogent answer, no matter how calmly or respectfully they approached it. Fox/OAN and the shittiest of the GOP officials/Trump minions seem to be inflaming over-the-top infectious anger without ever even saying anything concrete. The anger underneath has *no* solid foundation.

I would honestly love to be proven wrong about this.

 

[ceecee]

 

[Z Buck McFate]

^

 

[Totenkindly]

^^

"The tone was totally inappropriate," one anonymous advisor told the outlet about the committee's message.

Why? it seemed pretty on-brand to me.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I agree this is truly horrible. Mixed feelings about quoting this, but the Trump camp is such a blatant expression of...

"Come back to the fold where we will manipulate and abuse you, so that you will be energized to manipulate and abuse others. Come on. You know you want it. We promise to treat you like shit and create rigid hierarchies of power, so that you have to regain ego balance by finding someone else to squash."

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I'm on the fence about whether Pence's public correction of Trump has any value. He should have added that the widespread allegations of voter fraud weren't substantial, and that every audit confirmed an accurate count. No amount of preaching about how one man shouldn't decide elections will begin to mend the distrust Trump cultivated against the entire system of voting, or will have any meaning for an entire base who believes 45 actually did win (that it isn't a matter of one man deciding, so much as one man defending the results of a bona fide election).

And I think the Vice President actually does have the capacity to stall certification if there's a question about election fraud? Much in the way that, currently there are several 45 loyalist electorates being installed, and if they try submitting fraudulent results (again) then Harris can challenge it. I'm not 100% on this though. I read it somewhere, and I can't even remember where. The reason Pence didn't do it is because there wasn't sufficient proof to even question the results. That is what he needs to say. I'm thinking he only went halfway with his public correction because he thought there'd be a smaller consequence; but 45's base is still going to hate him for not 'defending the real results' of the election.

 

[Kephalos]

The problem with Donald Trump is that he is a conservative.

Ultimately, all his psychological problems, his abrasive and disagreeable personality, his inability to use language in any coherent fashion, his stupidity, his corruption, his detachment from reality, his contempt for the law, his utter lack of any moral character...NOTHING matters more than the fact that he leads a political movement whose policies are based on an ideology that is fundamentally wrong.

The problem is not his person, but the ideas that inspire his policies and motivate his supporters. And also the fact that those supporters are very numerous.

Donald Trump, a true Reagan Republican: It’s no accident that the Party of Reagan morphed so easily into the Party of Trump.

Anatomy of a Scare: Yellow Peril Politics in America: This article maps the rise and dissemination of Yellow Peril fears in the United States between about 1980 and 1993 and seeks to explain them.

 

[ceecee]

I'm on the fence about whether Pence's public correction of Trump has any value. He should have added that the widespread allegations of voter fraud weren't substantial, and that every audit confirmed an accurate count. No amount of preaching about how one man shouldn't decide elections will begin to mend the distrust Trump cultivated against the entire system of voting, or will have any meaning for an entire base who believes 45 actually did win (that it isn't a matter of one man deciding, so much as one man defending the results of a bona fide election).

And I think the Vice President actually does have the capacity to stall certification if there's a question about election fraud? Much in the way that, currently there are several 45 loyalist electorates being installed, and if they try submitting fraudulent results (again) then Harris can challenge it. I'm not 100% on this though. I read it somewhere, and I can't even remember where. The reason Pence didn't do it is because there wasn't sufficient proof to even question the results. That is what he needs to say. I'm thinking he only went halfway with his public correction because he thought there'd be a smaller consequence; but 45's base is still going to hate him for not 'defending the real results' of the election.

Pence: Remember that nakedly lawless thing the president tried to do but which I said nothing about at the time? It was wrong
[booming applause]

If anyone should get credit, it's Dan Quayle.

 

[Totenkindly]

Not impressed with Pence, he's been bending over and taking it ever since he got enmeshed with Trump. I mean, his boss stirred up the crowd enough to entertain hanging the guy and he was remarkably loyal anyway. He doesn't win any awards for needing an entire year to simply stand up for himself.

They're all pretty terrible (Rubio and crowd) with how quickly they fell into line under Trump and are still under his thumb even now.

Don't even know why I'm posting this, we already all know it.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

The problem with Donald Trump is that he is a conservative.

Ultimately, all his psychological problems, his abrasive and disagreeable personality, his inability to use language in any coherent fashion, his stupidity, his corruption, his detachment from reality, his contempt for the law, his utter lack of any moral character...NOTHING matters more than the fact that he leads a political movement whose policies are based on an ideology that is fundamentally wrong.

The problem is not his person, but the ideas that inspire his policies and motivate his supporters. And also the fact that those supporters are very numerous.

Donald Trump, a true Reagan Republican: It’s no accident that the Party of Reagan morphed so easily into the Party of Trump.

Anatomy of a Scare: Yellow Peril Politics in America: This article maps the rise and dissemination of Yellow Peril fears in the United States between about 1980 and 1993 and seeks to explain them.

I never saw the party of Trump as any different from the party of Reagan and Bush II. It's the same animal.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

[If this even needs saying: ] I don't think Pence even remotely deserves any praise or respect. I don't have much respect for Liz Cheney either, and think the effect of her presence in our government is absolute shit. But there is value in her outright stating there was no voting fraud, and that January 6th was a domestic terrorist attempt to overturn a legitimate election.

It's one thing to hotly disagree about policies/values on a more-or-less agreed upon objective reality. But if people can't even agree upon an objective reality, then it's pointless to even think about talking policy. The value in Cheney admitting there was no voting fraud - as one of the most conservative members of Congress (therefore shedding light on how ridiculous "RINO" accusations are) - is that it helps uncover objective reality.

It's in thst sense that I'm wondering if there's value in Pence publicly correcting 45, and saying it was *not* in his power to do what 45 keeps saying he should have done. It seems like a meaningless gesture without also (publicly) saying there was no substantial cause to doubt the election results. (And maybe even mention ALL the audits that have since occurred have confirmed the results, even for those who doubted election integrity anyway).

 

[Stigmata]

[If this even needs saying: ] I don't think Pence even remotely deserves any praise or respect. I don't have much respect for Liz Cheney either, and think the effect of her presence in our government is absolute shit. But there is value in her outright stating there was no voting fraud, and that January 6th was a domestic terrorist attempt to overturn a legitimate election.

It's one thing to hotly disagree about policies/values on a more-or-less agreed upon objective reality. But if people can't even agree upon an objective reality, then it's pointless to even think about talking policy. The value in Cheney admitting there was no voting fraud - as one of the most conservative members of Congress (therefore shedding light on how ridiculous "RINO" accusations are) - is that it helps uncover objective reality.

It's in thst sense that I'm wondering if there's value in Pence publicly correcting 45, and saying it was *not* in his power to do what 45 keeps saying he should have done. It seems like a meaningless gesture without also (publicly) saying there was no substantial cause to doubt the election results. (And maybe even mention ALL the audits that have since occurred have confirmed the results, even for those who doubted election integrity anyway).

For me, Pence is much more reprehensible than Cheney. Despite proclaiming himself as a law & order Republican, and repeatedly expressing how deep his faith runs and what it means to him, Pence both enabled and turned a blind eye to all the blatant corruption going on within the Trump administration. For me, the old saying "democrats fall in love, republicans fall in line" continuously rings true, and therefore I expect conservatives to vote along the party line, almost every time, such as Cheney has. I at least acknowledge and respect her to call out something so blatantly and objectively wrong as Jan 6th for what it is and what it meant for this country -- whereas the vast majority of her politics and ideals are absolute garbage. At least she chooses not to cower and gaslight us like the rest of the Republican party does, because the truth is that they're both terrified of their base and were terrified of the intentions of the insurrectionists on that day.

 

[Totenkindly]

[If this even needs saying: ] I don't think Pence even remotely deserves any praise or respect. I don't have much respect for Liz Cheney either, and think the effect of her presence in our government is absolute shit. But there is value in her outright stating there was no voting fraud, and that January 6th was a domestic terrorist attempt to overturn a legitimate election.

I agree with that, and sure I agree that there is value in stating the obvious.

But I wouldn't compare Cheney and Pence. Cheney has been generally adversarial towards Trump (despite voting as a Republican) for some time, esp with the 2020 election, whereas Pence has been a punching bag / hand puppet for Trump ever since he got on the ticket. I can't tell where Trump's fist ends and Pence begins. SHould I feel sympathy for him as an abused spouse of sorts who has continually enabled Trump, and even now when denying Trump's "victory" in 2020 a year after the fact will still probably enable him in any other situation?

So sure I see it as important from the perspective of clarifying reality for the historical record, but I do not see it as relevant in somehow rehabilitating Pence's image or generating appreciation. We're in this mess for all the times he just rolled over and/or for waiting over a year to even make this declaration. The insane part is that Trump flies in the face of all of Pence's supposed religious values; I am sure if a guy like Trump tried to become pastor of his church, he would have run him out of town for being a terrible example of Christ.

Edit: Oh. What Stigmata said more eloquently.

 

[Coriolis]

For me, Pence is much more reprehensible than Cheney. Despite proclaiming himself as a law & order Republican, and repeatedly expressing how deep his faith runs and what it means to him, Pence both enabled and turned a blind eye to all the blatant corruption going on within the Trump administration. For me, the old saying "democrats fall in love, republicans fall in line" continuously rings true, and therefore I expect conservatives to vote along the party line, almost every time, such as Cheney has. I at least acknowledge and respect her to call out something so blatantly and objectively wrong as Jan 6th for what it is and what it meant for this country -- whereas the vast majority of her politics and ideals are absolute garbage. At least she chooses not to cower and gaslight us like the rest of the Republican party does, because the truth is that they're both terrified of their base and were terrified of the intentions of the insurrectionists on that day.

Calling out 6 Jan for what it was - and the election as one Trump lost fair and square - is a very low bar for inspiring respect. Just goes to show how bad the situation has become when simple recognition of reality is the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

But I wouldn't compare Cheney and Pence. Cheney has been generally adversarial towards Trump (despite voting as a Republican) for some time, esp with the 2020 election, whereas Pence has been a punching bag / hand puppet for Trump ever since he got on the ticket. I can't tell where Trump's fist ends and Pence begins. SHould I feel sympathy for him as an abused spouse of sorts who has continually enabled Trump, and even now when denying Trump's "victory" in 2020 a year after the fact will still probably enable him in any other situation?

I haven't put much thought into comparing them as people, and I couldn't agree more with the bolded. None of the enablers deserve *any* sympathy in my mind.

I'm merely wondering if there's any value in Pence's public statement (not whether there's any value in him as a person or a politician). And mentioned Cheney's public position on Trump - and how it helps put an anchor in objective reality - as an example of the kind of value I'm talking about, not to compare them as people. Without also claiming there was no substantial reason to suspect voting fraud, his "one man shouldn't decide an election" spiel is meaningless (because that base feels like the insurrection wasn't about "one man" deciding it so much as reclaiming what "the people" chose). I'm micro-focusing very specifically on whether his little public snit was remotely beneficial towards that "objective reality" end. I simultaneously feel like (1) it was so spineless as to be completely useless, and (2) it seems like there's some value in Pence saying "Trump was wrong" that I'm not seeing.

Again: I'm not remotely defending Pence's character or saying there's anything redeemable about him.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

And actually, I think Heather Cox Richardson hit the nail on the head (the nail I felt like I was trying to hit).

Sunday, former New Jersey governor Chris Christie, who seems to entertain hopes for 2024, said on ABC’s This Week that “January 6 was a riot incited by Donald Trump in an effort to intimidate Mike Pence and Congress into doing exactly what he said in his own words—overturn the election.”​

​

But others, like Senator Todd Young (R-IN), seem to be trying to split the baby. Young told Christiane Amanpour that those saying the attack was legitimate political discourse are “a fringe group,” although the RNC is quite literally the official machinery of the Republican Party. Young is up for reelection in 2022. He is also from Indiana, as is former vice president Mike Pence, who seems to be positioning himself to take over the party as Trump’s legal woes knock him out of the running for 2024.​

​

On Friday, Pence told the Federalist Society that Trump was “wrong” to say that he, Pence, had the power to overturn the election. But he did not say that Biden won the election fairly. Then, on Sunday, Pence’s former chief of staff Marc Short seemed to try to let Trump off the hook for his pressure on Pence, telling Chuck Todd on Meet the Press that the former president “had many bad advisers who were basically snake oil salesmen giving him really random and novel ideas as to what the vice president could do.”​

​

They seem to be trying to keep Trump’s voters while easing the former president himself offstage, hoping that voters will forget that the Republican leadership stood by Trump until he openly talked of overturning the election.​

​

​

Having trouble posting link to her Letters From An American blog, but it's the 2/7/21 entry.

Eta: So, the value is that it's perceivably a move to excise Trump as next POTUS. But it's not a move to merge the party with objective reality.

 

[Kephalos]

As for Mike Pence, regarding his conduct on Jan. 6 2021, he is a concrete illustration of the principle that one does not get any praise for doing what one is supposed to do and is obligated to do in the first place.

Like when J. Peterman tells Elaine: "Congratulations on a job...done."

Way to adequately perform the duties of your job today.

Free and Funny Workplace Ecard: Way to adequately perform the duties of your job today. Create and send your own custom Workplace ecard.

www.someecards.com

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

As for Mike Pence, regarding his conduct on Jan. 6 2021, he is a concrete illustration of the principle that one does not get any praise for doing what one is supposed to do and is obligated to do in the first place.

Like when J. Peterman tells Elaine: "Congratulations on a job...done."

Way to adequately perform the duties of your job today.

Free and Funny Workplace Ecard: Way to adequately perform the duties of your job today. Create and send your own custom Workplace ecard.

www.someecards.com

Thank god. I am tired of shitty people getting praised for being slightly less shitty than someone else.

 

[Stigmata]

Calling out 6 Jan for what it was - and the election as one Trump lost fair and square - is a very low bar for inspiring respect. Just goes to show how bad the situation has become when simple recognition of reality is the exception rather than the rule.

While I agree with you in principle, this take seems to dismiss just how intense and dangerous the real world implications are for even acknowledging anything that doesn't fit within the parameters of the far-right media bubble narrative. Those on the Republican side that speak out are met with death threats and public condemnation, and while they are ultimately responsible due to their enabling of the rhetoric and actions that allowed the nefarious actors in their party to further radicalize their base of people who are already disenchanted and looking for someone to blame for their despair, it very much can jeopardize one's personal safety and the safety of their families to speak out on something that should be as basic as acknowledging objective reality (we've seen it all along with the election audits that failed to produce and real evidence of widespread voter fraud, and therefore have had the elections in their state deemed legitimate wins for the opposition). Not to even mention a previous administration that had no qualms with using the full power and force of the executive to persecute those went again their wishes.


While you probably have 70% of the party who is all about the MAGA movement and getting rid of our democracy and having us move toward becoming a theocratic ethnostate, the other 30% (merely guessing on the exact figures) of those that would probably consider themselves more moderate Republicans in what is now the traditional sense of being proponents of lower taxes, anti-abortion, fiscal conservatism, ect, and they're kind being dragged along even further and further right. It's not for no reason that we're seeing an unprecedented number of congressional retirements at the moment.

We can finger wag and claim the moral highground from Anakin all day long, but the only way you can even begin to write the ship is by forming a strong bipartisan coalition who all agree that democracy is worth having and fighting for -- right now, we're so far gone beyond even talking about policy differences that it just doesn't make sense to further alienate those who do manage to have the stones to step up and speak out against the lies.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

We can finger wag and claim the moral highground from Anakin all day long, but the only way you can even begin to write the ship is by forming a strong bipartisan coalition who all agree that democracy is worth having and fighting for -- right now, we're so far gone beyond even talking about policy differences that it just doesn't make sense to further alienate those who do manage to have the stones to step up and speak out against the lies.

Bipartisan coalition? Like say the Supreme Court that did a great job of things in 2000 and has continued to have a stellar track record?

We've had lots of bipartisan coalitions. Look where we are. Why, every September I hear how 9/11 was the best tragedy to ever happen to our nation because we all came together, no Democrats, no Repuiblicans, united in destroying the bill of rights and engaging in bogus wars. Did we get utopia from that bipartisan coalition?

You can sit and wait for the Republicans to wake up and do the right thing if you wish. I don't think that's going to happen. It never has before when it was needed. They already stole an election and the "bipartisan consensus" (or anybody else) didn't do anything else about it. But now that's where the salvation is going to come from?

If that means we're fucked, then I guess we're fucked. Maybe people could try to be more active on a local level than expecting Mike Pence or Liz Cheney to swoop in and save them? I don't think it's a great idea to put all your chips on those scumbags. If that's the only thing we have then I guess the sensible thing is to start preparing for it, because they are not going to come through. They aren't good people; there's no "good guy" or "heroic warrior for the common good" lying deep down. Really they don't have to be; they can take a page from Colin Powell and have a change of heart too late to do any good and die a national fucking hero. You can be sure they can continue to fail us and they will nonetheless die with a stellar reputation.