Suicidal thoughts?

[GZA]

I'm such a stubborn ass that when suicidal thoughts or depression do come up (I havn't had serious suicidal thoughts or depression since I was like 14) I'm just like "fuck you!" to the whole concept of killing myself or being worthless. I still feel depressed, but with the stubborn attitude against my own emotions. It's like, fuck you suicide, if I'm going to be alive I'd rather go all out untill I can't go any more than just drift out and die! If everything sucks and death is the only option, then by going for something greater I have nothing to lose. And then I just get the hell up and do soemthing really random that I usually wouldn't that is kind of hard and I just endure it and I come out feeling good again, in kind of like a smug "I told you so, you asshole!" kind of way

But this happens less and less frequently now... it was more when I was 14 or so. Now i'm just looking at my life and all the privledges I have and I just think it would be a complete waste to kill myself. I respect the value of my life way too much.

 

[Nocapszy]

You said "you can't hold that against them". I'm saying it's perfectly reasonable to hold it against them depending on the situation.

That is of course only our personal viewpoints.

Well yours is poorly constructed.
If you've any experienced with genuine suicidal inspiration you know that 'the situation' doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter because the individual has a poor concept of the situation. Ergo, they can't calculate correctly.

Would you get pissed at someone if you asked them to build a bridge, but you didn't tell them where you wanted the bridge and it was the wrong size?
They didn't have enough correct information to make a good decision.

Is it really selfish if they can't calculate correctly?

 

[TickTock]

only in the morning

 

[ajblaise]

Well yours is poorly constructed.
If you've any experienced with genuine suicidal inspiration you know that 'the situation' doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter because the individual has a poor concept of the situation. Ergo, they can't calculate correctly.

Would you get pissed at someone if you asked them to build a bridge, but you didn't tell them where you wanted the bridge and it was the wrong size?
They didn't have enough correct information to make a good decision.

Is it really selfish if they can't calculate correctly?

If someone overreacts to something and calculates it right out of proportion, or even become temporally deluded and kill themselves... I'd fault them for the miscalculation, but I wouldn't call the suicide especially selfish at all.

That's an obvious exception.

But if someone is perfectly aware and conscious of what the consequences will be, who it will affect, and have perspective on the situation.... I would say suicide in that case is more selfish then someone becoming deluded or just honestly misinterpreting the situation, of course.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

I'd rather not assert any authority on ethics.

Hmmm. Rather not, but I believe that most people are asserting their authority on ethics every day, whether they realize it or not. The point to voicing what ones ethical beliefs are is to make it so people don't have to abduce what your ethics are based on your actions, which is a pain in the ass, and may result in a lack of coordination that stifles much of the value of ethics (like having a doomsday device and not telling anyone about it, if you've seen Dr. Strangelove). Of course, this requires that someone has enough awareness to put a description on their own ethical beliefs, and then the honesty to actually tell people what it is.

I'd it's generally useful to accomplish those things though, if you can. It at least helps to try.

only in the morning

I'm often most depressed in the morning, too.

 

[Nocapszy]

Hmmm. Rather not, but I believe that most people are asserting their authority on ethics every day, whether they realize it or not.

It's not exactly asserting authority to assert self. Just because I do something doesn't mean I think I'm right, or authoritative.

The point to voicing what ones ethical beliefs are is to make it so people don't have to abduce what your ethics are based on your actions, which is a pain in the ass, and may result in a lack of coordination that stifles much of the value of ethics.

I know the point. Eh... it seems like the kind of thing that would be hard not to know.

Nice Fe, by the way.

Of course, this requires that someone has enough awareness to put a description on their own ethical beliefs, and then the honesty to actually tell people what it is.

I don't, and wouldn't even if I did.

The only value I'm certain of is to not push my values onto anyone else.
Even if the cost is bad relations with other people due to their failure to understand me based on my actions, which they attempted, and failed (at least for those that do) to analyze and understand, having been forced into thanks to my refusal to overtly commit to anything, for the sake of trying to avoid any potential at influencing their personal decisions.


I know I contradicted myself, but I thought, since you're prying I'd throw the dog a bone.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Nice Fe, by the way.

:rolli:
The logic of collective action, my friend.

But it will be left there, since this is not at all a place for that discussion.

I know I contradicted myself, but I thought, since you're prying I'd throw the dog a bone.

It was unfortunately made of paper mache.

 

[htb]

My exit of choice would be to leap from a balcony wearing goggles, bikini bottoms and a cape; boom box in hand blasting Huey Lewis; immediately after setting myself on fire. Thoughts like this usually dispel dark ones.

 

[TickTock]

My exit of choice would be to leap from a balcony wearing goggles, bikini bottoms and a cape; boom box in hand blasting Huey Lewis; immediately after setting myself on fire. Thoughts like this usually dispel dark ones.

not bad, how about running into war with a peace balloon and a wooden gun...

 

[Nocapszy]

:rolli:
The logic of collective action, my friend.

Doesn't make it less Fe just because it works/makes sense...

But it will be left there, since this is not at all a place for that discussion.

K.

I know what I believe anyway. I don't need to reach for validation by you conceding. I do however require your participation when I'm jerking you around.

It was unfortunately made of paper mache.

Not sure I know what you mean -- it was flimsy?

Like I said, I don't assert any authority on ethics.

 

[nolla]

I don' know that I quite follow.

I meant that if we have similar thoughts and we both can get depressed by those thoughts, what is the key between being depressed and being suicidal?

 

[Magic Poriferan]

I meant that if we have similar thoughts and we both can get depressed by those thoughts, what is the key between being depressed and being suicidal?

Maybe it's degree. Maybe you don't get as depressed by those things.

Maybe it's a matter of values. Maybe you get depressed by the same things, to the same degree, but you have an underlying philosophy that makes you handle the depression differently.

And simply, maybe our causes for depression seem similar on the surface, but have some profound differences in greater detail.

And of course, it could easily be any combination of those things.

 

[Anja]

'scuse, nolla. I can't speculate on your question until I get this on paper!

Someone mentioned that anti-depressants may cause people to kill themselves and I just wanted to throw in one explanation for that.

It's not the medication per se.

The way it was explained to me was that people who are very depressed need to be watched closely as they begin to feel better. That is the time when they finally have the energy to carry out a plan.

Deep depression sometimes involves lying in bed or sitting in a chair for days at a time. As the mood begins to lift energy and comprehensive thought begins to return.

Many depressives also recognize that it means they are going to be expected to get into action again to improve and they are still too depressed to want to work at it.

The expectations of others weigh heavily on people who are depressed. Some think, "What if they want me to go to a family party and I can't do it." "What if they want me to start working again?" Thoughts like that.

I don't know the current statistics but a while back the most suicides were committed in the morning and in the month of April. Things are looking up! Oh-oh. I know that post-holidays are also a peak time. Got to go back to work and pay bills?

Often people will do a great deal of finishing up or tidying before they kill themselves. There is a renewed surge of energy there.

The medication does not magically create suicidal thoughts.

 

[heart]

The medication does not magically create suicidal thoughts.

I didn't think that it was yet known by reseachers for sure whether or not anti-depressants do or cause chemical changes in the brains of people who commit suicide after taking them?

And I also I thought it had more to do with the difference between depression alone and depression co-existing with bi-polar which SSRI can aggrivate?

5 questions

"4. Why do these medications increase suicide risk mostly in kids? It seems counterintuitive when the medication is actually meant to make them feel better.

Chang: Children may respond to psychiatric medications differently than adults because their brains -- like their bodies -- are still developing. For example, tricyclic antidepressants, which can be effective in adults with depression, don’t really work in children.

Also, it can be difficult to differentiate between depression and early bipolar disorder in adolescents. Because SSRIs can cause simultaneous manic and depressive states in people with bipolar disorder, which can lead to an increased suicide risk, it's vital to ask whether there's a family history of bipolar disorder or if the child has ever responded negatively to other psychiatric medications."




Suicide attempts decline after depression treatment

"Like other psychiatrists, Dr. Simon has seen a few depressed patients start having suicidal thoughts while taking antidepressant medication despite never having thought about suicide before then.

He hypothesizes that subgroups of people may be vulnerable to becoming more agitated or suicidal after taking these drugs. “We hope to learn how to identify these people in advance,” he said."

...

 

[Martoon]

Yeah, I think it does sometimes come down to a person essentially being too depressed to gather the resolve to kill themselves, and the antidepressant brings them up to the level where they do. It's like it's something they were inclined to do, and the drug motivates them to get active and do something, and that's the first thing on their checklist. Also, a lot of antidepressants can cause anxiety and agitation, which could lead to acting on a suicide plan for a very depressed person.

 

[heart]

Another view:

Antidepressants' risk of suicide now called low - The Boston Globe

The bigger worry, said the authors of the suicide study published in today’s American Journal of Psychiatry, is that antidepressants don’t significantly help most people who have chronic depression. A separate major report in today’s issue of the journal found that antidepressants brought complete relief to about 30 percent of patients who have recurrent bouts of depression — and half saw no improvement at all...

 

[blanclait]

i always have i wish i was dead so i dont have to do this crap. At a serious level where i would really prefer dying.
But in the end i just end up doing the crap, instead of killing myself.

For real depressed suicidal thoughts, i haven't had one in ages.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Come on... let's see if we can get to 50 people.

 

[Totenkindly]

... One person replying suggested they should write the note, and leave it where the recipient would find it in plenty of time before they committed the act, to see what their reaction would be. I thought that was an interesting way to reply. (Several people had already replied trying to talk them out of it, btw.)

That was smart.

Another way to do it is just to get them to try to make it to an arbitrary date. (Like, "Let's just go another week and talk about this, then if you don't change your mind you can do whatever...")

Often the person needs such a large change made that it seems impossible, so they just want to give up and not bother, and they're deciding between staying alive forever and killing themselves now. Getting them to merely postpone the decision sometimes gives them time to get perspective/get over the current hump.

AS far as strategy, though, all people are different. Some people ARE more selfish-minded about it or just not very aware of other perspectives and feelings that might be involved with the surrounding people. But those are acutely aware of other people and the impact(s) to begin with won't get much mileage out of being forced to once again examine how others might feel, it just feels like one more attempt to be manipulated and bound to making other people happy at their own expense.

 

[htb]

not bad, how about running into war with a peace balloon and a wooden gun...

And a backup band ten feet behind me playing James Brown's "Please, Please, Please"? I'll consider it.