Suicidal thoughts?

[Anja]

Well, I think the rate has been steadily rising in the US for quite a time. . .

Not sure of your point, aj.

 

[Salomé]

I think it is selfish of us to hold a person who commits suicide against them. Like, "damn you, I really wish you could've continued to live in absolute agony so I could be happy knowing and feeling that you exist."



There is an inherent will to live amongst all of us, when that instinctual will diminishes, some choose to die.

So be it, that is their prerogative and that is their right.

+1

 

[ajblaise]

Well, I think the rate has been steadily rising in the US for quite a time. . .

Not sure of your point, aj.

Is it? I think it was on Nationmaster where I read that Northern Europe really isn't that different concerning suicide then most of the West.

 

[nolla]

Sometimes it *IS* other people...

Even if it is, it doesn't help feeling sorry for yourself. Break off the people who make you feel miserable and try to start thinking with your own head instead of theirs. Theirs are probably messed up anyways if they make people wanna kill themselves.

 

[Totenkindly]

Just a quick reflection on Jennifer and nocapszy's posts.

Could you clarify for me how the rest of your post (mostly discussing biology) is connected to mine? I'm not getting it, maybe my brain's a little soft from the depression...

But then - that thought about hiding one's sucidal tendencies? That part of the problem. Our society places such a hard judgement on mental illness that people are afraid to seek help.

Odd thing. We don't judge people with cancer. We feel compassion for them. Maybe it's because of the behavioral problems that mentally ill people exhibit?

But they're out there in huge numbers. Functioning just like everybody else and under considerable handicap.

To go along with that, I think we do a great disservice in life by judging other people negatively before we have asked/heard more about their situation. There is much "off the cuff" stigma attached to some illnesses, and all it does is make it worse for the afflicted, encourages them to hide or pull away further, and so damn themselves... so that people can then cluck about how their negativity was justified.

Real community acts much differently.

I don't think it's necessarily "behavioral problems" exhibited by the mentally ill, I think it's also (1) pride in one's own "coping" skills and (2) relief that one can draw some sort of line that separates them from the "obvious crazies" and so make themselves feel better about their own lives. Also, there are some situations and conditions that people see as "moral choices" or can blame the victim for, whereas they might have much more biological root than commonly understood.

It's REMARKABLE how quickly someone's tune changes once they either have to deal with a "mental illness" in either themselves or in someone they love.

One of my close friends got diagnosed with bipolar a year or two ago (his mom had it too) and it was amazing the stigma that got attached to that and just how mean and unconstructive people at the church where he worked as a pastor could be out of sheer ignorance.

If I have to be "out there" now with a label, so that people are shocked/jolted enough to get out of their complacency or faulty thinking / insensitivity, then fine, I'm willing to do that now in my life.

(note: i wasn't saying you were doing ANY of that here, my comments just happen to be attached to your post. I wasn't really sure what you were trying to say overall...)

 

[ajblaise]

I think it is selfish of us to hold a person who commits suicide against them. Like, "damn you, I really wish you could've continued to live in absolute agony so I could be happy knowing and feeling that you exist."



There is an inherent will to live amongst all of us, when that instinctual will diminishes, some choose to die.

So be it, that is their prerogative and that is their right.

I pretty much agree, but if someone has family and people relying on them, it's safe to say that suicide would be selfish, even if they were suffering.

 

[miss fortune]

Even if it is, it doesn't help feeling sorry for yourself. Break off the people who make you feel miserable and try to start thinking with your own head instead of theirs. Theirs are probably messed up anyways if they make people wanna kill themselves.

There's situations that you can't judge on that basis really

Try crime victims or abused children for example I guess!

 

[Salomé]

That's interesting. Although in Heima they said Iceland was the happiest country on the earth. I think many of the Nordic countries break the general rule.

Like they've learned not to require strength through adversity.

?
Please explain.

I've lived through a Norwegian winter.
It was hell.

Also I think the Inuit have a high incidence of suicide - they are pretty tough people.
I think lack of daylight for long periods of time is v. unhealthy for humans.

 

[colmena]

?
Please explain.

I've lived through a Norwegian winter.
It was hell.

Also I think the Inuit have a high incidence of suicide - they are pretty tough people.
I think lack of daylight for long periods of time is v. unhealthy for humans.

Good points. Especially about daylight. I don't know how Iceland got the happiest country accolade. I'll have to look it up. General (perhaps only assumed by me) emotional well being may be down to their impressive HDI. Perhaps isolation and space has had a hand in it. Kind of flies in the face of my commune ideals.

 

[Totenkindly]

I pretty much agree, but if someone has family and people relying on them, it's safe to say that suicide would be selfish, even if they were suffering.

I think when you're at that point, such a judgment is extremely unconstructive.

You need to be dealing with the root of the problem, not telling someone they're being selfish because they don't see another way out.

Frankly, let me tell you: It didn't matter a damn, not because you don't love your family, but because you already feel like you're ruining their lives because you're so withdrawn, mean, distant, unattached, unable to express emotion, and hopeless that you end up feeling like it's better for them if you're gone and they can start over. You can't give emotionally. You feel like you can't keep a job. You end up hurting everyone you love. You feel like you're already NOT giving them anything but grief.

(So let's look at the actual options/outcomes/reality on the table here, NOT some idealized list of how they SHOULD be.)

Yeah, maybe some people are more overtly selfish about it, but I know for me this is what it was: I was cognizant of the impact of my behavior but it didn't give me any strategy by which to improve things, and I was already making their lives hell. Death was actually feeling like a release for THEM, regardless of its impact on me.

So my advice is that you need to be giving depressed people hope for change, if you want to help them, not tearing them down further.

 

[ajblaise]

I think when you're at that point, such a judgment is extremely unconstructive.

You need to be dealing with the root of the problem, not telling someone they're being selfish because they don't see another way out.

Frankly, let me tell you: It didn't matter a damn, not because you don't love your family, but because you already feel like you're ruining their lives because you're so withdrawn, mean, distant, unattached, unable to express emotion, and hopeless that you end up feeling like it's better for them if you're gone and they can start over. You can't give emotionally. You feel like you can't keep a job. You end up hurting everyone you love. You feel like you're already NOT giving them anything but grief.

(So let's look at the actual options/outcomes/reality on the table here, NOT some idealized list of how they SHOULD be.)

Yeah, maybe some people are more overtly selfish about it, but I know for me this is what it was: I was cognizant of the impact of my behavior but it didn't give me any strategy by which to improve things, and I was already making their lives hell. Death was actually feeling like a release for THEM, regardless of its impact on me.

So my advice is that you need to be giving depressed people hope for change, if you want to help them, not tearing them down further.

I can see how dieing could feel like a "release for THEM, regardless of its impact on me." But just as often, if not more often, a person who might have otherwise committed suicide won't because they don't want to abandon their loved ones. And if a person sticks around for his daughter or whatever, there is a chance they will get over their problems and continue with life.

The "you're selfish" argument is useless if the person is already dead, but it can act as a preventative also.

 

[ajblaise]

Looks like the Nordic countries rank very well concerning the "Happiest nations".

Got Warm Feelings? - BusinessWeek

 

[Anja]

Could you clarify for me how the rest of your post (mostly discussing biology) is connected to mine? I'm not getting it, maybe my brain's a little soft from the depression...

I heard you owning your depression without shame. Kudos! That was exactly the point I was getting to. That social disapproval/judgement of an illness, if we buy into it, can be a block to recovery.

Why feel badly about something we had no control over? Why feel secretive about a state of unhealth? Counter-productive to the max.

To me the only shame in being ill is if you don't take steps to get well again.

It fits in well with nolla's idea that blaming others for our problems keeps us stuck.

This owning it. . .

 

[Salomé]

Couple of things that I don't think have been mentioned:

Depression and suicide, while they may be related in ways as yet not fully understood, are not always linked. I.e. you can be suicidal and not clinically depressed and vice versa.

Suicide can be contagious.

Suicide is a civil right?

 

[Anja]

Ah! Good point.

 

[kyuuei]

I've definitely never had them!! I think there are few things worse than committing suicide, and even if my darkest of hours I have never once felt that my life ending would help or solve anything. The thought of death does NOT soothe me. The only reason why I COPE with death is because my religion helps guide me through it's part in life.. otherwise I'd have absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

[runvardh]

I think I've had more homocidal ones, to tell you the truth. I'm not wrong, everyone else is

 

[Virtual ghost]

The only reason why I COPE with death is because my religion helps guide me through it's part in life.. otherwise I'd have absolutely nothing to do with it.

In case that your religion turns out to be false, would you kill yourself right away or would you try to live anyway?


Or there is no way of telling that?

 

[Tallulah]

I can see how dieing could feel like a "release for THEM, regardless of its impact on me." But just as often, if not more often, a person who might have otherwise committed suicide won't because they don't want to abandon their loved ones. And if a person sticks around for his daughter or whatever, there is a chance they will get over their problems and continue with life.

The "you're selfish" argument is useless if the person is already dead, but it can act as a preventative also.

It's just not a good one. If they're already feeling worthless to the point of suicidal thoughts, that's just another one in the "reasons I can't do anything right" column. It's better to help them see their worth, and the good qualities they don't believe they have at this point, than to give them another reason for self-hatred.

I've definitely never had them!! I think there are few things worse than committing suicide, and even if my darkest of hours I have never once felt that my life ending would help or solve anything. The thought of death does NOT soothe me. The only reason why I COPE with death is because my religion helps guide me through it's part in life.. otherwise I'd have absolutely nothing to do with it.

This is how I feel. I've never honestly wanted to commit suicide. But I have had a moment of clinical depression where I honestly couldn't see any light, and I remember having the thought that I finally understood why someone would want to commit suicide, if they'd experienced a longterm feeling of hopelessness like that.

 

[Tallulah]

In case that your religion turns out to be false, would you kill yourself right away or would you try to live anyway?


Or there is no way of telling that?

Wow, I bet you're fun at parties.