Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[Wunjo]

From what I have seen cinematography is so horrible that I don't really feel a need to watch the entire movie to judge its context, for from what I have seen, form and content are rarely out of tune in cinema and thus a film's form, considering its colours, undertones, cuts etc. can give you a lot of information about how that film is as a whole. As someone who also saw the first sequel I can say that I have wasted 2 hours of my life though I myself don't consider the whole series as a great success as much as I adore the lore except a few very great movies.

Bottom line: The sequels shouldn't have happened. Ever.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Wait, this thread has people complaining about the movie who haven't even watched it? That's amusing.

So I saw John Williams at the CSO tonight, and he did music from this movie. It was super cool.

 

[Totenkindly]

Wait, this thread has people complaining about the movie who haven't even watched it? That's amusing.

yeah srsly. but I hear it's all the rage.

So I saw John Williams at the CSO tonight, and he did music from this movie. It was super cool.

It's cool you saw him in person. (I kinda was disappointed by this soundtrack, it felt phoned in to me; I liked TFA soundtrack better.) But a live performance is still pretty sweet.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

It's cool you saw him in person. (I kinda was disappointed by this soundtrack, it felt phoned in to me; I liked TFA soundtrack better.) But a live performance is still pretty sweet.

I thought the new themes introduced in The Force Awakens were better. (Rey's Theme is infinitely better than Rose's Theme) But yes, it was cool. I won't say that the entire soundtrack is bad, though. I like the continuation of the motif from the ending of TFA, and the uses of the Resistance theme, as well as the Space Casino music, which was kind of like another Cantina Band.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Of all the SW scores, Empire is hands down best. Of the films made after 83, I think Sith was the best music score.

I like this tangent, I can go on and on about film scores.

I agree TLJ felt phoned in and was not up to par with TFA--it rivals Attack of the Clones as one of the weaker scores. However it may be because he had to work from a temptrack of his prior SW scores while scoring TLJ. Hence it felt more like a "greatest hits" with a lot of nods to previous motifs. Overall that still works though, makes the film score feel like part of a continuous thread. Recurring motifs are nothing new in SW films.

Someone at FFSHRINE forums made a suite of all of the end titles, it really gives me goosebumps when A New Hope seques into Empire.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

From what I have seen cinematography is so horrible that I don't really feel a need to watch the entire movie to judge its context, for from what I have seen, form and content are rarely out of tune in cinema and thus a film's form, considering its colours, undertones, cuts etc. can give you a lot of information about how that film is as a whole. As someone who also saw the first sequel I can say that I have wasted 2 hours of my life though I myself don't consider the whole series as a great success as much as I adore the lore except a few very great movies.

Bottom line: The sequels shouldn't have happened. Ever.

You should at least give it a chance. TLJ was not great, in my opinion, but it was still a decent film and if nothing else, a visually satisfying treat. Lucas himself said the originals were more or less silent movies, that you could enjoy them minus dialogue and have a sense what's happening. This is true in regard to TLJ. I'm curious to get the Blu and watch it with the isolated score track

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Star Wars Film Scores Discussion

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

You should at least give it a chance. TLJ was not great, in my opinion, but it was still a decent film and if nothing else, a visually satisfying treat. Lucas himself said the originals were more or less silent movies, that you could enjoy them minus dialogue and have a sense what's happening. This is true in regard to TLJ. I'm curious to get the Blu and watch it with the isolated score track

I think one of the things I liked about it was the fact that I felt like they really got the Force right in a way that nobody's done in a long time. I also liked some of the weird flourishes that bothered some people like the walrus milk or BB-8's disguise, or the fact that there's an evil astromech being a narc. The humor and everything was right up my alley, and I'm kind of baffled that people thought it didn't fit. One of the strengths of the OT was its sense of humor, and I felt it was being very true to the spirit of Star Wars in leaning so heavily on that.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I think one of the things I liked about it was the fact that I felt like they really got the Force right in a way that nobody's done in a long time. I also liked some of the weird flourishes that bothered some people like the walrus milk or BB-8's disguise, or the fact that there's an evil astromech being a narc. The humor and everything was right up my alley, and I'm kind of baffled that people thought it didn't fit. One of the strengths of the OT was its sense of humor, and I felt it was being very true to the spirit of Star Wars in leaning so heavily on that.

Agreed on the force.

It also had one of the best lightsaber fights of the entire saga.

And I think Luke’s arc made sense even though it bothered a lot of fanboys who wanted to see Obi Wan version 2

 

[Totenkindly]

Agreed on the force.

It also had one of the best lightsaber fights of the entire saga.

And I think Luke’s arc made sense even though it bothered a lot of fanboys who wanted to see Obi Wan version 2

I don't have a problem with Luke's arc nor with Luke going there in ghost form.

I have a problem with the writing, it just wasn't done very well -- it was too high-concept and broadly clunky, rather than really locking in. A lot of the writing was just tone-deaf, whether it was a bunch of jokes that didn't fit the story or just not really thinking about the larger emotional arc and what makes these stories inspirational. I think Johnson probably should have collaborated on and/or directed from another person's script even if he provided the story input, he was just off here.

I liked the throneroom battle the first time I saw it, not as much the second time. It felt a little off in the editing.

I think the most decent lightsaber battles were much of the Darth Maul vs Obiwan/Quigonn fight, the first half of the Obiwan/Anakin fight, and the Empire Strikes Back fight. I thought the forest fight between Rey and Ren was decent, although it's hampered somewhat by all the bitching.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I don't have a problem with Luke's arc nor with Luke going there in ghost form.

I have a problem with the writing, it just wasn't done very well -- it was too high-concept and broadly clunky, rather than really locking in. A lot of the writing was just tone-deaf, whether it was a bunch of jokes that didn't fit the story or just not really thinking about the larger emotional arc and what makes these stories inspirational. I think Johnson probably should have collaborated on and/or directed from another person's script even if he provided the story input, he was just off here.

I liked the throneroom battle the first time I saw it, not as much the second time. It felt a little off in the editing.

I think the most decent lightsaber battles were much of the Darth Maul vs Obiwan/Quigonn fight, the first half of the Obiwan/Anakin fight, and the Empire Strikes Back fight. I thought the forest fight between Rey and Ren was decent, although it's hampered somewhat by all the bitching.

I like the RotJ fight. Used to be my least favorite but it’s where Luke truly learns the meaning of being a Jedi

 

[Totenkindly]

I like the RotJ fight. Used to be my least favorite but it’s where Luke truly learns the meaning of being a Jedi

It's okay.

I can't really create Lucas' writing with being inspirational/meaningful to me, honestly. I need emotions that are more organic and raw rather than forcibly heroic, it doesn't feel real. The whole time I'm supposed to think a fight is spectacular because Luke is operating heroically, rather than because the fight actually feels dangerous and real.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Agreed on the force.

It also had one of the best lightsaber fights of the entire saga.

And I think Luke’s arc made sense even though it bothered a lot of fanboys who wanted to see Obi Wan version 2

I think what he did at the end is kind of a perfect evolution of what he did at the end of Jedi. I think it was mostly in character. The only thing that possibly isn't in character is in the flashback, but he ultimately pulled back just like he did at the end of Jedi. And also, it's been implied that Ben was flirting with the dark side even before he trained with Luke.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

It's okay.

I can't really create Lucas' writing with being inspirational/meaningful to me, honestly. I need emotions that are more organic and raw rather than forcibly heroic, it doesn't feel real. The whole time I'm supposed to think a fight is spectacular because Luke is operating heroically, rather than because the fight actually feels dangerous and real.

It's a story of extreme archetypes. They are somewhat 2-dimensional but I think that's why Star Wars has a broad cross-culture appeal.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I think what he did at the end is kind of a perfect evolution of what he did at the end of Jedi. I think it was mostly in character. The only thing that possibly isn't in character is in the flashback, but he ultimately pulled back just like he did at the end of Jedi. And also, it's been implied that Ben was flirting with the dark side even before he trained with Luke.

I really want more backstory on Ben Solo, the early years of Luke's Jedi Academy, The Knights of Ren, why Snoke came along and how he seduced Ben, etc. I had hoped we would learn at least some of that in TLJ, but maybe they'll discuss some of that in the next film.

I like the idea that Luke himself was ultimately responsible for Ben's turn, that it was the point that shook Ben's faith and caused him to go full dark side. As if Luke sort of created a self fulfilling prophecy. I don't think that sat well with some fans.

 

[Totenkindly]

I really want more backstory on Ben Solo, the early years of Luke's Jedi Academy, The Knights of Ren, why Snoke came along and how he seduced Ben, etc. I had hoped we would learn at least some of that in TLJ, but maybe they'll discuss some of that in the next film.

I like the idea that Luke himself was ultimately responsible for Ben's turn, that it was the point that shook Ben's faith and caused him to go full dark side. As if Luke sort of created a self fulfilling prophecy. I don't think that sat well with some fans.

well that's just life. We constantly mess up other people's lives without even realizing we're doing it sometimes. And anyone who actually has raised kids knows how real that scenario is -- parents grasp that it's not a matter of never hurting your kids because of your own ineptness or insecurities, it's a matter of just minimizing the damage and maximizing benefit.

See, though, the thing is -- how would things have gotten so bad that Luke would contemplate killing a student in his SLEEP? That seems totally different from the character we know and his values. The film never justifies that. The idea is okay and would make the film interesting, but there is no justification in the writing... or just unconvincingly justified. This is an example where the writing needed to be far better. Johnson pulled it off in Looper but not here. And hey, also the internal life of Ben -- Luke saw SOMETHING, it's not like Ben was good and then Luke tried to kill him (although he relented in the end but just too late), Ben was actually going evil / being seduced by darkness, and we never really understand why he is susceptible and others were not. Lots of opportunities for something interesting and meaningful but it all stayed completely on surface. Meh.

I really liked the idea that characters could be seduced by the LIGHT side from TFA -- Ben is actually fighting off the LIGHT throughout that movie and kills his dad in part to try to shut up the voice. We're so used to the Dark side swaying people. Why didn't this get followed up on? It's a great idea! Did Johnson ever even watch TFA, btw? He doesn't seem to really build much of his film from that starting point.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

well that's just life. We constantly mess up other people's lives without even realizing we're doing it sometimes. And anyone who actually has raised kids knows how real that scenario is -- parents grasp that it's not a matter of never hurting your kids because of your own ineptness or insecurities, it's a matter of just minimizing the damage and maximizing benefit.

See, though, the thing is -- how would things have gotten so bad that Luke would contemplate killing a student in his SLEEP? That seems totally different from the character we know and his values. The film never justifies that. The idea is okay and would make the film interesting, but there is no justification in the writing... or just unconvincingly justified. This is an example where the writing needed to be far better. Johnson pulled it off in Looper but not here.

I wondered if Luke was somewhat shellshocked and skewed by his experiences with his own father. That it maybe blinded him, that Ben wasn't really in danger of turning and it was ultimately Luke's fears that led to Ben's turn. But that's just speculation, you're right that the film doesn't make it very clear.

They gave Johnson too much creative power, too much free reign. I think there should have been more narrative parameters in place. Say what you want about Abrams, but he tends to play it safe. I'd argue some of the weaknesses in the newer Trek films are that Abrams played it TOO safe (ironic since a lot of fans criticized nu Trek as being TOO different from the Trek they knew and loved).

However, for the middle installment in a trilogy, which should basically be the glue or linchpin holding everything else together, I think the Abrams approach may have resulted in a better film that felt more cohesive. But we'll never know. It could have been worse than what Johnson created.

 

[Totenkindly]

I wondered if Luke was somewhat shellshocked and skewed by his experiences with his own father. That it maybe blinded him, that Ben wasn't really in danger of turning and it was ultimately Luke's fears that led to Ben's turn. But that's just speculation, you're right that the film doesn't make it very clear.

See? Another great idea by people who didn't get to write the movie.

It wouldn't be shocking, that's for sure. The film acts like Luke somehow processed being the son of a dark lord in the space of one film, had his father die in front of him and had to somehow come to peace with everything, and somehow it never comes up again ever. Yes, it's very likely his fears about the dark side and his own father being seduced fed into his fears about his own nephew following the same path... although Luke spared his father even when inconvenient, while turning on a younger person he was mentoring. It's like a huge blind spot.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

See? Another great idea by people who didn't get to write the movie.

It wouldn't be shocking, that's for sure. The film acts like Luke somehow processed being the son of a dark lord in the space of one film, had his father die in front of him and had to somehow come to peace with everything, and somehow it never comes up again ever. Yes, it's very likely his fears about the dark side and his own father being seduced fed into his fears about his own nephew following the same path... although Luke spared his father even when inconvenient, while turning on a younger person he was mentoring. It's like a huge blind spot.

It's an idea that I think they barely grazed with Anakin in the prequels. The Jedi went to great lengths to shelter him from the darkside, which backfired horribly. Not letting him go see and rescue his mother because of some bullshit rules about Jedi not having connections and attachments (a rule that seems to be inconsistently applied throughout the prequels)? They couldn't send some Jedi back to Tatooine to rescue or purchase her freedom, and set her up in a nice condo somewhere, then say, "you can't see her, but rest assured, your mother will never be a slave again, and will live out her days in peace"? But then they let him be the personal security guard to the chick that they knew he had a crush on? What again about attachments?

But all of the trauma Anakin went through as a kid (despite Lucas making him look like a happy, ordinary kid with a cool bedroom) and he was expected to just get over all of that?

The Jedi had their fears of the darkside, but maybe the darkside itself isn't evil; it seems like a real balance of the force would involve exploring both the light and dark in a healthy manner, rather than just repressing it and spewing some draconian platitudes about attachments. They constantly warn pupils of the darkside throughout the saga, yet they complain that fear is a path to the darkside. Seems like a dangerous tightrope to walk, "fear is bad, it leads to the dark. Oh by the way, don't be tempted by the darkside, it's really bad and scary."

Perhaps Luke over sheltered Ben, which somehow was what led to Ben's unhealthy fixation on the darkside. And that was because of Luke's own insecurities, maybe, stemming from the shit he went through, like you said, in a relatively short time frame.

I dunno, I guess I chalk up prequel inconsistency to Lucas being a shitty writer. But it was a MAJOR problem. And I see similar narrative and plot issues with the sequels.

 

[Totenkindly]

It's an idea that I think they barely grazed with Anakin in the prequels. The Jedi went to great lengths to shelter him from the darkside, which backfired horribly. Not letting him go see and rescue his mother because of some bullshit rules about Jedi not having connections and attachments (a rule that seems to be inconsistently applied throughout the prequels)? They couldn't send some Jedi back to Tatooine to rescue or purchase her freedom, and set her up in a nice condo somewhere, then say, "you can't see her, but rest assured, your mother will never be a slave again, and will live out her days in peace"? But then they let him be the personal security guard to the chick that they knew he had a crush on? What again about attachments?

Yeah, I would like to say that this isn't the fault of the Jedi, it's a fault of Lucas who cannot write on a complex mature level -- it's all very ten-year-old in terms of sides and black and white. Unfortunately, Lucas created the Jedi so then that's what the Jedi became. All very unrealistic, all very unlifelike.

The Jedi had their fears of the darkside, but maybe the darkside itself isn't evil; it seems like a real balance of the force would involve exploring both the light and dark in a healthy manner, rather than just repressing it and spewing some draconian platitudes about attachments. They constantly warn pupils of the darkside throughout the saga, yet they complain that fear is a path to the darkside. Seems like a dangerous tightrope to walk, "fear is bad, it leads to the dark. Oh by the way, don't be tempted by the darkside, it's really bad and scary."

Totally. It's why the game properties and other franchised elements have treated the force different, this gets explored in those ventures. The Sith really have a different perspective on LIFE and it's not necessarily "evil." With Jung's shadow, we NEED our dark elements to have power. (I experienced this IRL as well.) Even D&D alignment is more complex than how Lucas' films handled Light and Dark. It's like he read Jung and didn't understand it, it all got filtered through his Judeo-Christian culture.

Perhaps Luke over sheltered Ben, which somehow was what led to Ben's unhealthy fixation on the darkside.

Very possible. We all respond differently. If Luke over protected him so that the Dark side become an enticing novelty, he would have been sucked in; or maybe if Luke set up a strong phobic push in him away from the dark side, his counter-phobic tendencies might have drawn him right back to it with equal measure.