Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[Doctor Cringelord]

Totally. It's why the game properties and other franchised elements have treated the force different, this gets explored in those ventures. The Sith really have a different perspective on LIFE and it's not necessarily "evil." With Jung's shadow, we NEED our dark elements to have power. (I experienced this IRL as well.) Even D&D alignment is more complex than how Lucas' films handled Light and Dark. It's like he read Jung and didn't understand it, it all got filtered through his Judeo-Christian culture.

I like the idea of Gray Jedi. I'm not too familiar with EU but it seems like they touched on them as a sort of rogue order.

I've seen it suggested Qui-Gonn Jinn was a gray jedi but it's not like they ever mention this or he's even around long enough in the filmsto explore this aspect, so it just seems like fan wishful thinking. An interesting approach may have been to explore this and how he could've been better suited than Obi-Wan to train and mentor Anakin in truly balancing the light and dark. I think I read Mace Windu was also skilled at channeling the dark without being totally corrupted by it, but again, this is never actually mentioned or explored in the films.

 

[Totenkindly]

I like the idea of Gray Jedi. I'm not too familiar with EU but it seems like they touched on them as a sort of rogue order.

I've seen it suggested Qui-Gonn Jinn was a gray jedi but it's not like they ever mention this or he's even around long enough in the filmsto explore this aspect, so it just seems like fan wishful thinking. An interesting approach may have been to explore this and how he could've been better suited than Obi-Wan to train and mentor Anakin in truly balancing the light and dark. I think I read Mace Windu was also skilled at channeling the dark without being totally corrupted by it, but again, this is never actually mentioned or explored in the films.

So much lost opportunity to really build a textured story that could appeal to adults as well as kids. The ideas are there, just not followed through. It's all so focused on the visuals, which is where Lucas excelled anyway from an artist POV.

I liked SWTOR too because some of the NPCs were trying to bridge the gap as well -- one of the sith lords and the former lead Jedi for example were communing together in the force, and each has a different approach that you can try to integrate.

You would think that the force itself is just something that can be approached in various ways. Traditions arise because they offer a consistent approach with desired results. But multiple traditions could exist. (But then again, it's all kind of muddled -- like, "The Dark" is sometimes treated almost as if an entity of the force itself that is tempting people. So I dunno.)

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

They gave Johnson too much creative power, too much free reign. I think there should have been more narrative parameters in place. Say what you want about Abrams, but he tends to play it safe.

I think that was why I preferred this to TFA. I felt like TFA played it too safe and tried too hard to be an anti-prequel. We get no information in the film itself about what the deal is with the Resistance and the Republic because people complained too much about space politics in the prequels (which was never really the problem with the prequels, but was rather just something cooked up by lazy internet commentators... there's no way you could have approached doing the story of the prequels correctly without dealing with space politics....the problem is that you get a mention of "heroes on both sides" but it never gets fleshed out on screen) I think if they had actually devoted some time to explaining to the Republic, the story would have had a lot more stakes, but as it is we don't really get any feel for what happens when not-Coruscant is destroyed because no attention is devoted to the Republic. So we just sort of get ANH remade with what feels like less stakes. The parts of TFA that were good were the parts that weren't anything like ANH.

While I think it was better than the prequels, I don't think it was up to the OT. I wasn't really interested in any of the things "set up" during TFA that so many people were interested in, which is why I'm pretty happy that they were done away with.

It's an idea that I think they barely grazed with Anakin in the prequels. The Jedi went to great lengths to shelter him from the darkside, which backfired horribly. Not letting him go see and rescue his mother because of some bullshit rules about Jedi not having connections and attachments (a rule that seems to be inconsistently applied throughout the prequels)? They couldn't send some Jedi back to Tatooine to rescue or purchase her freedom, and set her up in a nice condo somewhere, then say, "you can't see her, but rest assured, your mother will never be a slave again, and will live out her days in peace"? But then they let him be the personal security guard to the chick that they knew he had a crush on? What again about attachments?

I think we're supposed to think that the Jedi Order of the prequels is flawed, which is fine and all, but it doesn't come across that well. We're supposed to see all the rules the Jedi have as bad, but the problem with that is that you can just see what happens when they didn't follow them with Anakin (not to mention the fact that Jedi who don't follow the rules tend to join Sith, judging by Anakin and Dooku). So it actually looks like maybe the Jedi have a point about avoiding attachments and training people from birth.

But all of the trauma Anakin went through as a kid (despite Lucas making him look like a happy, ordinary kid with a cool bedroom) and he was expected to just get over all of that?

The Jedi had their fears of the darkside, but maybe the darkside itself isn't evil; it seems like a real balance of the force would involve exploring both the light and dark in a healthy manner, rather than just repressing it and spewing some draconian platitudes about attachments.
.

That's not what Lucas says though. Lucas says that the light side of the force is balance, and the dark side of the force is imbalance. The problem I had with that is that it was never clear what it was a balance of, if it wasn't between light and dark. Somehing I liked about this movie is that it pointed toward an explanation that made sense. Rey's force mediation speaks of life, death and in between balance. So "death" or "violence" isn't the dark side. It's disrupting the balance (like trying to keep the ones you cared about from dying, like Darth Plaugeis).

 

[ducks]

I like the idea of Gray Jedi. I'm not too familiar with EU but it seems like they touched on them as a sort of rogue order.

I've seen it suggested Qui-Gonn Jinn was a gray jedi but it's not like they ever mention this or he's even around long enough in the filmsto explore this aspect, so it just seems like fan wishful thinking. An interesting approach may have been to explore this and how he could've been better suited than Obi-Wan to train and mentor Anakin in truly balancing the light and dark. I think I read Mace Windu was also skilled at channeling the dark without being totally corrupted by it, but again, this is never actually mentioned or explored in the films.

I might be wrong, but I think Qui-Gonn Jinn was considered Gray because he didn't believe the dark side or the light side was the right way about it. He was actually the one that taught Yoda how to be a force ghost. I think he's more like a spiritual teacher in that sense, so he's Gray, but maybe not "Gray", as in someone that integrates their dark elements with their light elements. Though you are right, it was never explored, so it's probably not the "Gray Jedi" people are wanting to see.

 

[Riva]

Who is going to be the villain of this trilogy's episode 3?

Can't be Kylo Ren. He is a mediocre force user and too emo. Not passionate decisive Emo either; i am a little bitch emo. Also the actor who plays him is very ugly. Yuk.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Who is going to be the villain of this trilogy's episode 3?

Can't be Kylo Ren. He is a mediocre force user and too emo. Not passionate decisive Emo either; i am a little bitch emo. Also the actor who plays him is very ugly. Yuk.

Some women seem to find him quite appealing though. I don't really see the appeal but then I don't see the appeal in a lot of men that are considered attractive.

 

[Riva]

Some women seem to find him quite appealing though. I don't really see the appeal but then I don't see the appeal in a lot of men that are considered attractive.

I see. Strange. Maybe he does have something I can't see.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I see. Strange. Maybe he does have something I can't see.

Something for chicks who dig emotional, moody badboys. Trent Reznor with a lightsaber, I suppose.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Something for chicks who dig emotional, moody badboys. Trent Reznor with a lightsaber, I suppose.

I actually totally get it. He's ripped (he was a marine after all), and he seems to suggest sensitivity with an edge, combined with velvety dark hair and smoldering brown eyes.

 

[Totenkindly]

Adam Driver has been cuter in other movies, honestly.

 

[Totenkindly]

Star Wars Fans Raise $15M to Fund Last Jedi Remake, Rian Johnson Trolls Back - MovieWeb

Remake The Last Jedi


I'd probably be willing to donate more money than I spent on a movie ticket for this....


EDIT: The article from earlier today says they had raised a staggering $15 million. But going to the donation page, they're already at $40 million only hours later. That's about 20% of the film's actual budget, lol, which is kind of impressive.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

LOL, the Last Jedi was exactly what Star Wars needed. Honestly, that was the best thing they could have done given that the most interesting thing JJ and Lawrence Kasdan could come up with was a reset button. It makes me wonder if George Lucas's contributions had been underrated as of late. I generally enjoyed the recent Star Wars films Lawrence Kasdan wasn't involved with a lot more than the ones he was involved with. They were much riskier and interesting in terms of storytelling.

And let's not forget that Kasdan also made Dreamcatcher.

I'm starting to think that a decent chunk of Star Wars fandom is pretty terrible. Look at what happened to Jake Lloyd, and what's happening to Kelly Marie Tran.

I mean, I don't think Ben Affleck that much in the way of vitriol for Batman Vs. Superman, and that movie sucked and was also involved with a devoted fandom. The bulk of the criticism has been directed at Zack Snyder for the direction of the DC films, and people were even decent enough to lay off when a family member of his committed suicide. I think a lot of Star Wars fans probably wouldn't extend the same courtesy.

 

[Totenkindly]

I think people are no longer separating the work from the people.

If they want to be mad at Rian Johnson because he wrote the script and directed the film, fine. He should be the target, if anyone, in terms of "culpability."

Being mad at the actors is really stupid, though, and unfair. I mean, it's not her fault what happened in the story; she was hired to play a part that she played as she was directed to play it. She's not her character. I think it shows a lot of dehumanization and (simply) spitefulness to have abused her as what some of the fanbase did. It's like what happened with Leslie Jones in Ghostbusters as well; again, not her fault, she was HIRED and just did what she was being paid to do, so blame the director and/or writers, not the actors if you hate the direction of the film.

The thing is, guess who is typically getting abused nowadays? It's not the men. It's the women. By the white male fans. Yes, it's that same shit. I haven't really noticed the same level of virulence directed at the male cast members, although I'm open to hearing it if there's clear examples of such. I have trouble thinking of it getting so PERSONAL. Like, with Johnny Depp playing Tonto in "The Lone Ranger" as an example -- the critics lambasted the movie, and I guess some of the political activists had things to say, but I don't really think it became a total attack on Depp, because he was viewed as an actor just playing the role he was hired for.

I mean, Benicio del Toro was shit in TLJ, his character was in a terrible side plot, made little sense, and was one of his worst roles ever in an illustrious career... but I don't see the same level of virulence directed at him, right? Hmm.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

The thing is, guess who is typically getting abused nowadays? It's not the men. It's the women. By the white male fans. Yes, it's that same shit. I haven't really noticed the same level of virulence directed at the male cast members, although I'm open to hearing it if there's clear examples of such. I have trouble thinking of it getting so PERSONAL. Like, with Johnny Depp playing Tonto in "The Lone Ranger" as an example -- the critics lambasted the movie, and I guess some of the political activists had things to say, but I don't really think it became a total attack on Depp, because he was viewed as an actor just playing the role he was hired for.

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True. I think Boyega got some stuff too, before his debut even came out. I think this has actually kind of been a thing for a long time; it's just that social media gives voice to it. There was all kinds of weird hatred for Natalie Portman on the AOL Star Wars message boards back in the 2000s. This is just a continuation of that. It's not fair to say that all criticism of TLJ is because of alt-right shenanigans, but that element is definitely there with some people. I guess for some people... not only are they obsessed with nostalgia ( I guess that was another thing I liked about TLJ... the deconstruction of "legends" and "bloodlines" and all this stuff people thought was important to the story, but really wasn't.) , it extends beyond their first experience seeing the movies, but to the way things were. And that element is also present with Star Trek fans... interestingly it seems like, from my observations, comic book fandoms have less regressive elements than sci-fi fandoms.

I've noticed in general that it seems like in these kinds of genre media, women are more often criticized than the men for their acting, and I've always wondered if there was a sexist element to that.

 

[Totenkindly]

Not sure about the comics thing, as there's a ton of pushback against all the "revisions" of comic book characters... like replacing white or straight heroes with new versions that are multicultural or gay. I mean, the scifi properties are HUGE (and also in what cross-section of the culture who they hit) in comparison with the typical comic titles creating controversy. And we'ves also got all the typical arguments about sexism in how male and female characters are designed.

It's like the Gamergate stuff spilling into similar niche categories = computer games, film, TV, comics, and/or scifi. Some of it's because there are big properties that were created one way as a reflection of the culture, and now since the CULTURE has changed drastically, the art form no longer reflects the culture... but the group that was represented by the bulk of the art form resents the changes because to them it was all set in stone.

I have mixed feelings about some of it. In general, I'm all for creating new stories rather than rewriting old ones... except realistically some of these properties are actually just "modern fables" and not one shot stories. At this point, for example, Superman, Batman, and other popular heroes have been told and retold, and just like Jesus they are going to be recast in the culture in which they find themselves. Once I viewed them as huge symbolic fables rather than inviolate specific manifestations, I found it much easier to accept a "retelling." I mean, comic books are serial in nature. If we wanted to just tell one specific incarnation of a character, we'd finish the story and end the comic. But if they're going to keep a comic going for decades, then retelling and restarting to reflect a different angle is necessary.

Still, I admit I felt kind of annoyed learning that Colossus is now gay. I have no problem with gay characters if they are handled the same way as straight characters. It's just that the Colossus I knew was straight and in love with Kitty Pryde, etc. At some point if a character changes too much, are they even the same character, and can't you just create a new character? I dunno.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Not sure about the comics thing, as there's a ton of pushback against all the "revisions" of comic book characters... like replacing white or straight heroes with new versions that are multicultural or gay. I mean, the scifi properties are HUGE (and also in what cross-section of the culture who they hit) in comparison with the typical comic titles creating controversy. And we'ves also got all the typical arguments about sexism in how male and female characters are designed.

You mean the diversity of comic book titles means that there's a smaller piece of the pie for any particular property? But there are definitely some that are more popular than others, right?

 

[Totenkindly]

You mean the diversity of comic book titles means that there's a smaller piece of the pie for any particular property? But there are definitely some that are more popular than others, right?

I meant there's a hell of a lot of non-scifi folks who are still into star wars even if not generally watching other scifi, while the pool of folks who actually buy and read comics is smaller and more dedicated to the genre. You know, like a lot of non fantasy folks saw lord of the rings.

I guess marvel has done this with their movie run to some degree now, though... you dont need to be into comics to still buy your ticket to the next marvel movie.

 

[Totenkindly]

Star Wars Fans Raise $15M to Fund Last Jedi Remake, Rian Johnson Trolls Back - MovieWeb

Remake The Last Jedi


I'd probably be willing to donate more money than I spent on a movie ticket for this....


EDIT: The article from earlier today says they had raised a staggering $15 million. But going to the donation page, they're already at $40 million only hours later. That's about 20% of the film's actual budget, lol, which is kind of impressive.

Dear god, talk about staggering --

it's five days later and the page claims to have received $320 million in pledges

I mean, that's pretty awesome and all... but they know it's NOT going to happen, right? Like, it's just not.

TLJ made $1.3 billion box office and they are already developing the 9th movie based on it. And Disney would have to admit to having made a mistake... which it obviously isn't going to do because they made all that money anyway. So... kind of pointless, however wonderful.

I have kind of already written off this trilogy and might get into Star Wars at a later date again.

 

[Mal12345]

Star Wars Fans Raise $15M to Fund Last Jedi Remake, Rian Johnson Trolls Back - MovieWeb

Remake The Last Jedi


I'd probably be willing to donate more money than I spent on a movie ticket for this....


EDIT: The article from earlier today says they had raised a staggering $15 million. But going to the donation page, they're already at $40 million only hours later. That's about 20% of the film's actual budget, lol, which is kind of impressive.

The Last Jedi was too complicated for most people to understand. It wasn't a straightforward Star Wars movie with a plot that moves from A to B. Such viewers confuse their subjective inability to understand it with their reasoning that it was an objectively bad movie. They haven't learned to distinguish their inner world from their outer world.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Don't remake star wars, give the money to some film students and amateurs.