Star Wars 9

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

That's not even the worse things they do.

I think the worst thing they've done lately has been releasing a slew of pointless, uninspired live action remakes of animated classics.

- - - Updated - - -

not to mention that goddawful maleficient sequel.

 

[Totenkindly]

Maleficent 1 was a huge disappointment. Not Jolie's fault, though. And most of those live action sequels had little artistic reason to exist.

And now we have a world where films are updated after release... AKA cats. Welcome to agile cycle filming. So they can double dip in the theater run. Ehhh.


Anyway, ran across this:
The 192 Minute J.J. Abrams Rise Of Skywalker Cut Is Coming Sooner Than You Think – The Story Is Not The Story

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Maleficent 1 was a huge disappointment. Not Jolie's fault, though. And most of those live action sequels had little artistic reason to exist.

And now we have a world where films are updated after release... AKA cats. Welcome to agile cycle filming. So they can double dip in the theater run. Ehhh.


Anyway, ran across this:
The 192 Minute J.J. Abrams Rise Of Skywalker Cut Is Coming Sooner Than You Think – The Story Is Not The Story

Hmm, think I'll wait until Disney+ rather than see it in theaters again. They really should not have released a movie that was not finished. I'm sure I'll hear all about what's in the 168 minute version, anyway.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

One thing I don’t like about Disney’s handling of the SW films is the time table for production. Perhaps 2 years between trilogy episodes was too rushed. Lucas always did 3 and that seemed adequate. Maybe the new ones would be better if they weren’t rushed with so little planning

 

[Totenkindly]

You'd think they would have backed off after the disastrous Solo release -- well disastrous in that it didn't make as much as projected, they had to swap out directors, etc. BUt I guess it did lose $100 million or so based on what it needed to cover costs, it only made around $400 million worldwide. THey SAID they were backing off, but then didn't. And they really could have afforded to.

Reading about the Production for TFA -- laughed at this:

Abrams made changes to the film's plot in the editing process to simplify the film, by removing some sequences shown in trailers: "At one point, Maz used to continue along with the characters back to the Resistance base, but we realised that she really had nothing to do there of value, except to be sitting around."[186]

Yeah, so she just follows the rebels to their base in ROS and sits around aside from giving Chewie a medal as fan service 40 years in the making, rofl.

Anyway, they had a good year after shooting (shot over summer and fall 2014, released in Dec 2015) to handle post production and editing. I know it was the first film, so they needed more time to get everything established, but that sounds pretty reasonable for a film of this magnitude. Abrams was able to supervise that process.

THe last Jedi shot in 2016 and had a year post-production before release.

It looks like ROS had only nine months in there to make a Christmas release and it had less than a month of buffer between post -production and release, and they were doing editing on-set.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Regardless, 2 years (approx. 1 year if you count the anthology films) between releases is too frequent. It's bloody market saturation. I always expected Disney would milk SW for every cent when I heard they were buying Lucasfilm, but I'd hoped they'd at least space it out a bit. Even if they had adequate time for post-production, it seems like they didn't really leave adequate time to write a coherent story for the main saga.

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah I just do not understand what level of actual oversight they provided. It seems to be feast or famine with them, in terms of the control. Back when TFA was being developed, it seemed like all the directors were coordinating on overall story ideas so that everything meshed. I am not sure where this broke down. Abrams left some open threads in the first film and we don't know what was agreed to later in the overall arc, but typically you mesh the rest of the films with prior pieces of the story.

Regardless of Johnson's pro's and con's to his storyline, he didn't seem to do that -- there some surprising thread enders. He also seemed to write his script from scratch (from what I read) instead of building off the treatments / ideas that were sent forward. KK and whoever else allowed this, which seems odd since they were so quick to crack down on the Solo film and others.

And then (and I don't care what damage control Terrio and whoever else is trying to do now), they really did jettison the underlying story directions that Johnson set into motion. Again, there should have been oversight there to keep a consistent project but there was not -- or if there were ways to support shifts, they were edited out of the film. Johnson merely took things in unexpected directions but didn't seem to directly refute/retcon items from the first film, as what happened here.

Anyway.... yeah, beating a dead horse. I just don't get it, though. That huge Disney machine but they allowed all this to spin out and are seemingly interested in just financial bottom line for the fiscal year.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I mean, maybe they were trying to do it like Lucas did it. He sort of just came up with everything on the fly, only having a very loose outline at the start of it all. I never bought explanations that he'd always intended Luke and Leia to be siblings and even now that aspect of RotJ almost feels like a retcon shoehorned into the damn thing, if not for Yoda's "No, there is another" line in Empire. I don't think he always knew Vader would be Luke's father either. I think it's just a miracle that the ones Lucas made were as coherent as they were. His lack of planning really shows in the Prequels though, if you consider how the Jedi are spoken of in the OT as some long dead religion, when they were only wiped out 19 years prior to the Battle of Yavin, or for instance the fact that Leia never really "met" Padme in the prequels, even though RotJ established she had distinct memories of her (unless she was remembering her adoptive mom, Bail Organa's wife).

Anyone who doesn't think Lucas came up with a lot of it on the fly, just read the book The Annotated Screenplays and you'll find out how much of it was last minute revisions when they wrote the OT.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Shit, if people were willing to sit through The return of the King (and I'm not even referring to the extended cut) then I think they'd be willing to sit through JJ's director's cut in theaters. Have a damn intermission like they used to do in old school long epics. Theatres would make more money that way if people had to get up and decided to go get more snacks.


Why don't movies have intermissions?

 

[Totenkindly]

I mean, maybe they were trying to do it like Lucas did it. He sort of just came up with everything on the fly, only having a very loose outline at the start of it all. I never bought explanations that he'd always intended Luke and Leia to be siblings and even now that aspect of RotJ almost feels like a retcon shoehorned into the damn thing, if not for Yoda's "No, there is another" line in Empire. I don't think he always knew Vader would be Luke's father either. I think it's just a miracle that the ones Lucas made were as coherent as they were. His lack of planning really shows in the Prequels though, if you consider how the Jedi are spoken of in the OT as some long dead religion, when they were only wiped out 19 years prior to the Battle of Yavin, or for instance the fact that Leia never really "met" Padme in the prequels, even though RotJ established she had distinct memories of her (unless she was remembering her adoptive mom, Bail Organa's wife).

Anyone who doesn't think Lucas came up with a lot of it on the fly, just read the book The Annotated Screenplays and you'll find out how much of it was last minute revisions when they wrote the OT.

I don't think anyone would argue that Lucas had a plan, based on a lot of the SW crap he pumped out. the prequels were a mess.

However, most storytellers prefer to have a story map unless they are Richard Linklater or someone, esp if coordinating multiple books or films. Heck JK Rowlings told Alan Rickman the secret of Snape way back when the first film was made so that he'd act accordingly even if no one else had any idea until the eighth film.

Shit, if people were willing to sit through The return of the King (and I'm not even referring to the extended cut) then I think they'd be willing to sit through JJ's director's cut in theaters. Have a damn intermission like they used to do in old school long epics. Theatres would make more money that way if people had to get up and decided to go get more snacks.

I think the cost factor revolves more around how many ticket holders they can seat in one day. 3-hour films reduces a room's daily capacity by at least one showing if not two.

But hell, it's SW. If it's good, they'll get people coming back a few times. I think they could get more people over the long haul (with less dropoff) if they made a high-quality film. I would have seen this film multiple times if it had been good. Instead I went once, was bored / put-off, and won't watch it again until free streaming if possible.

Disney’s Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker posted a threepeat atop the box office with $34.5M. Only three other films reached three weekends on top in the past year: Glass, Avengers: Endgame, and Frozen 2 in early December.

However, Rise of Skywalker was down a sharp -52.3% this weekend. That’s a far larger third weekend drop than for the franchise’s other recent December films: -39.5% for The Force Awakens, -22.5% for Rogue One, and -26.6% for The Last Jedi.

also:
‘Star Wars: Rise Of Skywalker’ Drops 53% But Tops $900M (Weekend Box Office)

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I mean, maybe they were trying to do it like Lucas did it. He sort of just came up with everything on the fly, only having a very loose outline at the start of it all. I never bought explanations that he'd always intended Luke and Leia to be siblings and even now that aspect of RotJ almost feels like a retcon shoehorned into the damn thing, if not for Yoda's "No, there is another" line in Empire. I don't think he always knew Vader would be Luke's father either. I think it's just a miracle that the ones Lucas made were as coherent as they were. His lack of planning really shows in the Prequels though, if you consider how the Jedi are spoken of in the OT as some long dead religion, when they were only wiped out 19 years prior to the Battle of Yavin, or for instance the fact that Leia never really "met" Padme in the prequels, even though RotJ established she had distinct memories of her (unless she was remembering her adoptive mom, Bail Organa's wife).

Anyone who doesn't think Lucas came up with a lot of it on the fly, just read the book The Annotated Screenplays and you'll find out how much of it was last minute revisions when they wrote the OT.

Yeah, the first draft of ESB had Luke's father's ghost visiting him on Dagobah. Also, this same draft mentioned Luke having a sister, but this was not Leia but someone we hadn't met yet who was supposed to show up in the future.

I wish I knew more about Lucas's idea about the sequel trilogy expanding on Midichlorians and Whills. I think people would have hated that even more, lol.

According to George Lucas himself, in James Cameron’s Story of Science Fiction, the Sequel Trilogy was going to go into the microbiotic world, where it would deal with the Whills, creatures that control the universe and feed off the Force. So George Lucas’ vision would have involved diving deeper than we ever have before into the nature of the Force that governs the galaxy far, far away.

Source: What If George Lucas' Ideas Had Been Used For The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy?

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Yeah, the first draft of ESB had Luke's father's ghost visiting him on Dagobah. Also, this same draft mentioned Luke having a sister, but this was not Leia but someone we hadn't met yet who was supposed to show up in the future.

I wish I knew more about Lucas's idea about the sequel trilogy expanding on Midichlorians and Whills. I think people would have hated that even more, lol.



Source: What If George Lucas' Ideas Had Been Used For The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy?

What are the whills anyway? I remember reading the novelization of the original SW and it referred to the Journal of the Whills. It also had a nice little prologue that spoke of Palpatine's rise to power. IIRC it's the first mention of the emperor's actual name. Not sure where Sheev originated though.


Some older fan once told me years ago, before the prequels even came out, that Lucas had a plan to do nine films and that the end of the ninth would show all the films to have been a holographic record stored in Artoo's memory banks. Not sure if that's true or just some rumor.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

here's the prologue:

ANOTHER galaxy, another time.
The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. No need to note where it was or whence it came, only to know that… it was the Republic.
Once, under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, there appear those evil ones who have greed to match.
So it was with the Republic at its height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside.
Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.
Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears.
Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy. Many used the imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions.
But a small number of systems rebelled at these new outrages. Declaring themselves opposed to the New Order they began the great battle to restore the Old Republic.
From the beginning they were vastly outnumbered by the systems held in thrall by the Emperor. In those first dark days it seemed certain the bright flame of resistance would be extinguished before it could cast the light of new truth across a galaxy of oppressed and beaten peoples…
From the First Saga
Journal of the Whills
“They were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Naturally they became heroes.”
Leia Organa of Alderaan, Senator

What's interesting is that the emperor doesn't seem to be described as the all powerful puppetmaster, but rather as a pawn and figurehead. He sounds more like one of the weaker Roman or Byzantine emperors here. Otherwise, it's a fairly decent summation of the events of the prequels. I remember reading this way back before episode I was even a thought and imagining how a prequel trilogy might unfold. For one, I never imagined the clone wars would be depicted as they were in the films and shows. I thought it would be some distant conflict fought far from the galactic center, rather than a galaxy-wide war.

Interesting how his character was evolved to what we know now.

 

[The Cat]

here's the prologue:

ANOTHER galaxy, another time.
The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. No need to note where it was or whence it came, only to know that… it was the Republic.
Once, under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, there appear those evil ones who have greed to match.
So it was with the Republic at its height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside.
Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.
Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears.
Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy. Many used the imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions.
But a small number of systems rebelled at these new outrages. Declaring themselves opposed to the New Order they began the great battle to restore the Old Republic.
From the beginning they were vastly outnumbered by the systems held in thrall by the Emperor. In those first dark days it seemed certain the bright flame of resistance would be extinguished before it could cast the light of new truth across a galaxy of oppressed and beaten peoples…
From the First Saga
Journal of the Whills
“They were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Naturally they became heroes.”
Leia Organa of Alderaan, Senator

What's interesting is that the emperor doesn't seem to be described as the all powerful puppetmaster, but rather as a pawn and figurehead. He sounds more like one of the weaker Roman or Byzantine emperors here. Otherwise, it's a fairly decent summation of the events of the prequels. I remember reading this way back before episode I was even a thought and imagining how a prequel trilogy might unfold. For one, I never imagined the clone wars would be depicted as they were in the films and shows. I thought it would be some distant conflict fought far from the galactic center, rather than a galaxy-wide war.

Interesting how his character was evolved to what we know now.

I figured the clone wars would have been more espionage and terror. Like anyone could be a clone and the clones were somehow psychotic like kaboth was in heir to the empire.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I figured the clone wars would have been more espionage and terror. Like anyone could be a clone and the clones were somehow psychotic like kaboth was in heir to the empire.

I was thinking an expensive, costly conflict fought in a distant corner of the galaxy, not unlike the British Empire or Roman Empire fighting over some backwater and using the war as an excuse to ramp up patriotism and keep the military industrial wing well stocked with soldiers as cannon fodder. But your idea would probably be mor einteresting to explore.

Would be a fun exercise to come up with alternate tellings of the prequel and sequel eras.

 

[The Cat]

I was thinking an expensive, costly conflict fought in a distant corner of the galaxy, not unlike the British Empire or Roman Empire fighting over some backwater and using the war as an excuse to ramp up patriotism and keep the military industrial wing well stocked with soldiers as cannon fodder. But your idea would probably be mor einteresting to explore.

Would be a fun exercise to come up with alternate tellings of the prequel and sequel eras.

I picture the empire vs rebels to be more of what you describe. I would in fact think the period of the rise of the empire would be ripe for colonial war stories

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

So in mine, Anakin is basically a minor character, a maguffin in the prequels, and the narrative focus is more on Obi Wan (the movies we got couldn't seem to decide whether they were about Anakin or Obi Wan, but I always thought they should really be Obi Wan's story). Anakin's fall comes a bit earlier, maybe in episode 2, as I felt it was rushed and forced in episode 3. I'd still find a way to include Dooku, because Christopher Lee rocked. And maybe Qui Gon too. However, in my version, Dooku is more like a Saw Guerrera type of figure. When he tells Obi Wan he's actually fighting for the good, he isn't bullshitting like he is in the movie we got. This makes his defeat at the hands of Anakin all the more tragic, as his initital portrayal as a villain and terrorist would have been a result of propaganda spread by agents of Palpatine, since he would need a big bad to justify his need to escalate the war and consolidate his power. Episode 2 would take place right in the thick of the clone wars, rather than being about the lead up to the war (the lead up would be seen in episode 1). And what the hell, I'd still include Darth Maul, only expand his role quite a bit.


I'd also have the jedi portrayed as a less centralized order. It would be disorganized, with several different branches following distinct philosophies. There would be some dark/grey jedi and there would be some branches opposed to the war and resisting any involvement.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I picture the empire vs rebels to be more of what you describe. I would in fact think the period of the rise of the empire would be ripe for colonial war stories

old school battlefront II game (not the new one) had a cool single player campaign mode that tracked the history from the Battle of Geonosis up through the rise of the empire and to the battle of Hoth. It mentions a bit of how the clones felt when order 66 was issued. None of them were thrilled with their orders but carried them out anyway. There's one battle where you have to fight a remnant of the separatist forces. Surreal to see imperial era stormtroopers fighting prequel era battle droids

 

[The Cat]

old school battlefront II game (not the new one) had a cool single player campaign mode that tracked the history from the Battle of Geonosis up through the rise of the empire and to the battle of Hoth. It mentions a bit of how the clones felt when order 66 was issued. None of them were thrilled with their orders but carried them out anyway. There's one battle where you have to fight a remnant of the separatist forces. Surreal to see imperial era stormtroopers fighting prequel era battle droids

the SW games have always had better stories than the movies imo. The chronicles of the 501 would have been a great stand alone movie. but it loses something that theyre all clones of one guy. it loses the band of brothers aspect to me and becomes more 1's and 0's I think a lot of this sort of fell apart because the OT stormtroopers and empire are british space nazis and the Clone troopers had to be protagonistic to begin. so I guess ol George figured make them human droids, which is why they fought robots.

The whole Execture Order 66 I didnt like (apart from the t-shirt I bought that said it.) I get it was supposed to be a callous orchestrated clockwork purge... but this again comes into one of the things that bugs me about the rule of 2 and the balance of the force prophecy.

A better clone wars pequil series imo would have been. Sith VS Jedi with the republic caught in the middle. The Jedi and the Sith should have been more like the division between Time Lords and Daleks in the Time War ie. virtually indistinguishable to the average john and jane doe galaxy person. The Jedi and Sith both should have been much more sinister. The Sith should have been the space ninjas striking from the darkness. While the JEdi should have been the Samurai stoic warriors who's future has been hobbled due to their chivalric code. Who have for the largest part forgotten their peaceful mandate with the people. Fearing the Rise of the Darkside, they've adopted a more fight force lighting with force lightning kind of tactics. A war of ideology where every force sensetive born is considered a vital potential resource to both Jedi and Sith and So parents teach their children to hide their talent into latency. or conversely entire colonies of force sensetives are established as force cults to serve jedi or sith as breeding farms etc... There's so much that makes so much more sense and entertainment apart from the cheesy prequils we got.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]