Star Trek vs. Star Wars

[Totenkindly]

I thought the entire first year or so of TNG was terrible, so much so that I didn't bother watching it until much later in the series. I think it definitely had growing pains and took awhile to measure up to the overall ST standard.

I was in college when it aired.
I think we were just excited that Star Trek was back on TV, and that there was a Klingon.

But boy did we make fun of Season 1.

Riker the man-child.
Prissy Beverly.
Gushy/useless Troi.
Wesley "Beam him through the shields please, NOW" Crusher, Annoying Boy Genius
Stupid Ferengis with whips and bad orthodontics

People didn't really have issues with Geordi or Data, though.
And Picard was interesting as a huge change from Kirk.

Q was pretty awesome from the get-go.

The series did better by mid season 2 and onwards, but my tastes changed away from formula -- too many episodes were too clean / too nicely wrapped up into a version of weekly Space Opera Lite. (You saw this problem with Brannon Braga's effort a few years back on Terra Nova -- TV expectations have changed into something messier and more provocative, and the show tanked.)

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

What was the name of the original series episode where they first showed the Romulans? And this created suspicion between Spock and the other crew members of the Enterprise?

The Romulans are interesting because they're also pretty intelligent, but they use their intelligence for power and control, not to discover things or help others. They're mirror images of each other, which makes sense because the Romulans are offshoots of the Vulcans. The Vulcans used to be a lot more like the Romulans earlier in their history, and after it destroyed the Vulcan homeworld, they decided to pursue a different path.

"Balance of Terror" from season 1. I believe it was the 8th or 9th episode produced but many episodes were aired out of order.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

"Balance of Terror" from season 1. I believe it was the 8th or 9th episode produced but many episodes were aired out of order.

Right. That was a really good episode of TOS.

People didn't really have issues with Geordi or Data, though. And Picard was interesting as a huge change from Kirk.

It seemed to me that Riker is essentially Kirk. In the first season episodes that I've seen, he even resembles Kirk. But here, he's demoted to second-in-command. Picard is a lot less of a stereotypical alpha male. Kirk was always getting into fistfights and seducing women. I don't know if I've ever seen Riker get into a fistfight, but he certainly had the seducing women part down. Riker definitely seemed more aggressive than Picard.

The series did better by mid season 2 and onwards, but my tastes changed away from formula -- too many episodes were too clean / too nicely wrapped up into a version of weekly Space Opera Lite

I really suggest you check out NuBSG. It deals a lot with religion, and a big theme of it as a conflict between the pagan humans and the monotheistic Cylons; the civilization of the Humans is kind of like a cross between ancient Rome and modern day America with some more advanced technology thrown in there. It's also very serialized, and it works pretty well. The weakest episodes are often the ones where the network tried to push them into doing more standalone things.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Right. That was a really good episode of TOS.

Regarding your thoughts on Vulcan/Romulan culture, from a typological standpoint, the Romulans strike me as more NTJ, while the vulcans seem more NTP (with shades of STJ)

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Regarding your thoughts on Vulcan/Romulan culture, from a typological standpoint, the Romulans strike me as more NTJ, while the vulcans seem more NTP (with shades of STJ)

Is it an issue of type, or just a philosophical approach, though?

Finally, regarding Q:

 

[Totenkindly]

It seemed to me that Riker is essentially Kirk. In the first season episodes that I've seen, he even resembles Kirk. But here, he's demoted to second-in-command. Picard is a lot less of a stereotypical alpha male. Kirk was always getting into fistfights and seducing women. I don't know if I've ever seen Riker get into a fistfight, but he certainly had the seducing women part down. Riker definitely seemed more aggressive than Picard.

Our impression is that was the whole point of Riker, at least in Season 1 before he started to find his own voice later in the series. (And the beard was an improvement.)

He was kind of the "Kirk" surrogate but not in charge, which allowed for a different dynamic. Also, I think the gist was they were trying to keep the Captain on the ship versus Kirk who would usually beam down -- so here the First Officer would be in charge of the away parties and thus he was more aggressive.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Our impression is that was the whole point of Riker, at least in Season 1 before he started to find his own voice later in the series. (And the beard was an improvement.)

He was kind of the "Kirk" surrogate but not in charge, which allowed for a different dynamic. Also, I think the gist was they were trying to keep the Captain on the ship versus Kirk who would usually beam down -- so here the First Officer would be in charge of the away parties and thus he was more aggressive.

Did you like him more in later seasons? He just seemed kind of boring to me.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Is it an issue of type, or just a philosophical approach, though?

Finally, regarding Q:

Perhaps both.

God, what a reminder of how aimless DS9 was in the 1st season. It still felt like a sad offshoot of TNG. I don't think that show became interesting until the 3rd season.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Perhaps both.

God, what a reminder of how aimless DS9 was in the 1st season. It still felt like a sad offshoot of TNG. I don't think that show became interesting until the 3rd season.

Yeah, it did take a while for it to find its voice.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Riker always struck me as that show's "everyman" character. His development as a character was never really a priority for the writers. He was good for episodes that place an average guy into remarkably unaverage situations (they did this a lot with Worf, but his character was more fully developed throughout the series). I think they should've gotten rid of him when his doppelganger showed up in season 6 ("Second Chances")...but kept his double aboard and promoted Data to XO. This way Riker #1 could finally get his promotion to captain, but they could keep the actor and focus on developing the doppelganger's character more.

 

[Totenkindly]

Did you like him more in later seasons? He just seemed kind of boring to me.

I think he was more relaxed and likeable; but I can't say I was ever much interested.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Again, to relate it back to typology, I find it interesting how Riker evolved from an ESTP clone of Kirk to a more rigid ESTJ in later seasons.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

5 Reasons Why Will Riker Creeps Me Out | Tor.com

Kind of summed up my problems with the Riker character

Riker screwed her over, and she still wants to sleep with him. Riker is truly awful, because he knows this about Troi, and instead of accepting a promotion to captain or transferring off the Enterprise and being a bigger person, he plays the “friend card” and while parading around meaningless affairs in front of Troi to hurt her feelings. She (like Beverly with Picard) rarely gets upset about this, and is in fact supportive. But if Troi suddenly is suddenly dating someone else? Watch out! Riker freaks the fuck out.

LOLZ

edit:

gets me everytime

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

 

[ygolo]

I kinda grew up watching Star Trek TNG. So many of those episodes still remain fodder for my philosophical musings.

The dynamic between LaForge (usually typed as ENTJ) and Data (usually typed as INTP) resembled many of my friendships during school and work. But the themes explored on a weekly basis were consistently like a philosophical object lesson for my teenage self.

I think some of the original series based movies, especially The Voyage Home, rank among my favorite sci fi movies. The Wrath of Kahn was also good for very different reasons.

But as far as big fun, big special effects, etc., Star Trek as a whole pales in comparison to Star Wars.

Star Wars wasn't particular thought provoking. I always thought of that franchise as a fantasy franchise with a sci fi based universe. So, to me, it'd be more fair to compare it to Avatar, or to Game of Thrones, or the Tolkien series... which were more appeals to imagination and brings up emotional entanglements (Luke's relationship to Darth Vader for example).

Which one I prefer depends on my mood.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

But as far as big fun, big special effects, etc., Star Trek as a whole pales in comparison to Star Wars.

Star Wars wasn't particular thought provoking. I always thought of that franchise as a fantasy franchise with a sci fi based universe. So, to me, it'd be more fair to compare it to Avatar, or to Game of Thrones, or the Tolkien series... which were more appeals to imagination and brings up emotional entanglements (Luke's relationship to Darth Vader for example).

Which one I prefer depends on my mood.

This is correct. Star Trek is more cerebral, while Star Wars and appeals more to the senses and the imagination, and, at its best a sense of adventure. When Star Wars good, it deals with emotions and conflict, similar to fantasy, as you've stated. I like the idea in ROTJ that you can win by not fighting, in particular, and the idea in ESB that Luke could become the very thing he is fighting against. Maybe it's because I'm old fashioned in some regards, but I think those ideas still have contemporary relevance.

NuBattlestar Galactica is interesting because it's not really like either. It's something else.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Theory: Eddington just wanted a promotion to Captain, and was butthurt that he didn't get it.

What do you guys think?

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Eddington was a self-important, narcissistic martyr.

Not sure about the being butthurt about not getting promoted. It's been a while since I saw that story arc so memory is hazy.

Chakotay, on the other hand, was someone who joined the maquis for the right reasons.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Eddington was a self-important, narcissistic martyr.

Not sure about the being butthurt about not getting promoted. It's been a while since I saw that story arc so memory is hazy.

He mentioned in an early episode that he dreamed of being a captain. I don't think it was ever spelled out explicitly that it was the reason, but if you put the pieces together, it makes sense. The federation put him in charge because they distrusted Odo, but Eddington ended up being the traitor.

Chakotay, on the other hand, was someone who joined the maquis for the right reasons.

What were those?

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

He mentioned in an early episode that he dreamed of being a captain. I don't think it was ever spelled out explicitly that it was the reason, but if you put the pieces together, it makes sense. The federation put him in charge because they distrusted Odo, but Eddington ended up being the traitor.

I love the DS9 arcs, but when you haven't watched it recently, it's difficult to recall particular storylines from single episodes because the arcs span across multiple episodes and seasons. Makes sense though.

What were those?

I thought he left starfleet to defend his people against the cardassians after the federation abandoned them. Seems noble enough and unmotivated by any desire for personal gain or as some big "fuck you" to an organization that failed to promote him quicker.