[so] So-last SJs

[tinker683]

I'm starting to wonder if I'm an Sx/Sp rather than Sx/So....I don't find myself nearly as concerned with social groups as all the So descriptions seem to imply

 

[Patches]

How does THAT work?

Seriously, though. For a set of MBTI types so focused on hierarchies, and status relative to others, how would being So-last -- i.e. Sp/Sx or Sx/Sp -- manifest itself?

Would love to hear examples, from So-last SJs on the forum, or people who know them well.

I'm not entirely understanding what you're asking about. I'm an sp/sx ISTJ. I'd say in regard to status/hierarchies... If it's something obvious like a job/position (manager, professor, police officer) - something with a tangible level of authority over me, I'm quite respectful of their authority. If it's something less obvious... Like just hierarchies within a social group... I tend to be oblivious to it. I just don't pick up on those nuances.

 

[Elfboy]

I'm starting to wonder if I'm an Sx/Sp rather than Sx/So....I don't find myself nearly as concerned with social groups as all the So descriptions seem to imply

I could see that. Sx/So is a yang type (more forward, expansive and overt) whereas Sx/Sp is a yin type (more subtle, coy and would rather let chemistry just happen). you seem more the latter

 

[tinker683]

I could see that. Sx/So is a yang type (more forward, expansive and overt) whereas Sx/Sp is a yin type (more subtle, coy and would rather let chemistry just happen). you seem more the latter

Hmm. Interesting thought.

here's the thing: I'm more interested in connecting with individuals than I am groups. Once I find an individual I connect with, I latch on them and hope they latch on to me. When they back off, I feel this sudden gulf and emptiness and it can be really hard to deal with sometimes...

Also, when I'm in groups, I join said groups for the individuals involved...not the groups themselves. If I can't connect to any of the individuals, my interest in the group withers and dies.

 

[Elfboy]

Hmm. Interesting thought.
here's the thing: I'm more interested in connecting with individuals than I am groups. Once I find an individual I connect with, I latch on them and hope they latch on to me. When they back off, I feel this sudden gulf and emptiness and it can be really hard to deal with sometimes...
Also, when I'm in groups, I join said groups for the individuals involved...not the groups themselves. If I can't connect to any of the individuals, my interest in the group withers and dies.

sound Sx/Sp to me

 

[Southern Kross]

I see what you mean, and I've considered it. He's certainly got aspects of both wings. He really has a lot of 1 traits, though, being rather superego-driven and a little bit high-strung in certain ways. Compared to the description, he does actively avoid conflict, and bemoans it when he feels like it could have been avoidable. I don't see much of "dominating others" in him - he seems to seek independence/autonomy much more strongly than any sort of control. He's very hard on himself, though he seeks comfort. Rarely has he dropped a subject because of seeming pointlessness - he's only ever dropped a conversation with me when I've turned hostile. He will minimize conflict, though. He enjoys the outdoors but prefers it to be somewhat relaxed/controlled. I've never seen him take frustration out physically - he seems to shut down more than getting wound up. He keeps it inside.

I still think it's possible he's a 9w8, going on what you say here. He sounds more and more like my Dad. My Dad has no interest in dominance or control over others either (and loves his independence) and he also shuts down when it comes to conflict. Honestly, the last time I can remember him losing his temper was 2002. I don't even think I've seen him take frustration physically either - so I'm a bit iffy on that part of the description. He does tend to drop pointless subjects, but then maybe this is a instinctual variants difference between him and your boyfriend.

Anyway, I don't mean to push the issue. Clearly you know your boyfriend better.

My ISTP little brother is a clear 9w8 and I see him so clearly in that description, while my boyfriend tends to be more controlled, more in his head, more imaginative, less action-oriented, having more of a need to be "good"/upright, more of a need to actively improve himself, more of need to use his knowledge to impact others. Overall, he seems more w1 to me.[/qu He has the comfort-seeking of the 9 but often seems to be in his head and trying to adjust things to be more comfortable - he even presents that in his physical body.

Yeah, this sounds it could be 1 wing.

How much of this is SJ versus SP, how much is wing versus wing, how much is instinct variant, how much is simple individual human variation? That's what I'm having such a hard time clarifying. Everything seems relative.

Well it's difficult when things overlap or counteract certain traits. I'm a INFP and a 4w5, both of which have very Sp qualities to them, and mostly test as a Sp because of this - but it doesn't really fit me. I think a lot of the descriptions and tests out there on the Enneagram in no way match the quality and consistency of the MBTI ones. But then perhaps the Enneagram is just that much more elusive than MBTI...

 

[cascadeco]

My Mum and sister are more likely to speak their minds and don't give a toss if that disturbs the peace. If we're in a restaurant and either of them aren't happy about something, they will voice that outright, while my Dad and I try to shush them in case other patrons or the waiting staff hear. So perhaps you could say there's less concern about toeing a social line (ie. be polite, don't complain, don't cause problems etc) and keeping everything conflict free.

oh wow, I totally relate to your anecdote re. your mom/sister being more likely to speak their mind; I'm rather like that. I think my sp/so intp brother, sp/so father, and so/sp ex find me more spastic/dramatic/intense/opinionated as a result; typically they are amused, however. Which I'm not sure how I feel about.

This typically only comes into play with those I am close to, though. If I were with a group of friends or acquaintances, I'd keep a lot of that in check, depending. But this is probably where Fe comes into play. I agree with you re. the crossover between Fe and so.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Fe and So seem similar and I think perhaps can heighten SJ stereotypes for the XSFJs, which can confuse the issue. My mum's a Sp/Sx ISFJ and I have Fe-using Dad (he's a ISTP) who's So/Sp - so the differences are more apparent to me. In addition to this my ESTJ sister is Sx/Sp and I'm a So/Sp, and our behaviours tend to divide along these lines (ie. My Dad and Me vs. My sister and Mum). My Mum and sister are more likely to speak their minds and don't give a toss if that disturbs the peace. If we're in a restaurant and either of them aren't happy about something, they will voice that outright, while my Dad and I try to shush them in case other patrons or the waiting staff hear. So perhaps you could say there's less concern about toeing a social line (ie. be polite, don't complain, don't cause problems etc) and keeping everything conflict free.

Also I hope I didn't give you the impression the So-users are polite and So-lasts are not. Politeness is not related to it. Although, So-users might be polite for different reasons than So-lasts, and may have different definitions of what politeness constitutes.

Yes, I really relate to this as well. I wouldn’t say I don’t give a toss about disturbing the peace, but I’m far more concerned with ‘the peace’ of the smaller group- if even just a single person I’m with- and it just doesn’t even register to me (well, within reason) to consider the people at the surrounding tables or waitstaff or whatnot. Learning about instinct variant has actually helped me understand how keeping the peace with the bigger group could be a priority, and helped me empathize with it. On the flipside of the above example- it would feel like my mom was concerned with what the waitstaff or surrounding tables thought but didn’t give a toss about how anything affected me (or my sister or dad). I’ve noticed this difference with some friends through the years as well.

 

[Southern Kross]

oh wow, I totally relate to your anecdote re. your mom/sister being more likely to speak their mind; I'm rather like that. I think my sp/so intp brother, sp/so father, and so/sp ex find me more spastic/dramatic/intense/opinionated as a result; typically they are amused, however. Which I'm not sure how I feel about.

This typically only comes into play with those I am close to, though. If I were with a group of friends or acquaintances, I'd keep a lot of that in check, depending. But this is probably where Fe comes into play. I agree with you re. the crossover between Fe and so.

Yes, I really relate to this as well. I wouldn’t say I don’t give a toss about disturbing the peace, but I’m far more concerned with ‘the peace’ of the smaller group- if even just a single person I’m with- and it just doesn’t even register to me (well, within reason) to consider the people at the surrounding tables or waitstaff or whatnot. Learning about instinct variant has actually helped me understand how keeping the peace with the bigger group could be a priority, and helped me empathize with it. On the flipside of the above example- it would feel like my mom was concerned with what the waitstaff or surrounding tables thought but didn’t give a toss about how anything affected me (or my sister or dad). I’ve noticed this difference with some friends through the years as well.

Yes I do imagine that must be how it feels to be on the receiving end of the "shushing". I can see how it seems disrespectful and dismissive. My family gets into arguments over this and I hear similar objections. It's just that, from the So-first perspective it can seem like a lot of unnecessary (and maybe even self-indulgent) grandstanding about your opinion/feelings/rights- of course, I know this isn't the intention but it's how it comes across.

I would also say, cascadeco, that I know what you mean about being laughed at for your intensity. My sister is a ESTJ sx/sp, which is basically a double dose of intensity. She's got a bit of short fuse on top of this, which was even shorter when she was a child, and this was the source of much derision by peers and outer family. It also doesn't help that being cool, calm and laid back is a cultural expectation in my country - and anything less than that draws a lot of ridicule and/or judgemental stares. My sister would get all intense about something and people would just stop listening to what she had to say and start teasing her. It always upset me because you could see how frustrated and insulted she felt. I usually tried to defend her, to smooth things over or to step in before tensions escalated, in order to spare her the worst of it. She's gotten better at channelling it but it still happens occasionally.

Discussing all this makes me think that perhaps so-last SJs must be more likely to be rebellious or at least more inclined to challenge the status quo in some way. When I think about it, a lot of the SJs I know that are/have been the sort to rebel and test the boundaries of authority. My ISFJ sp/sx mum certainly wasn't a rebel - she was the quiet, good girl. However she certainly will challenge people if they make sexist/racist comments or argue something else she is equally against. And she can get pretty riled up and once she gets the bit between her teeth, she won't let it go.




BTW some questions for you both: what is it like being a Fe user and So-last? Do you have a clear sense in your mind of where the division between them lies - what the differences are?

 

[SilkRoad]

I'm not entirely understanding what you're asking about. I'm an sp/sx ISTJ. I'd say in regard to status/hierarchies... If it's something obvious like a job/position (manager, professor, police officer) - something with a tangible level of authority over me, I'm quite respectful of their authority. If it's something less obvious... Like just hierarchies within a social group... I tend to be oblivious to it. I just don't pick up on those nuances.

I'm a lot like this, although I'm not an SJ, but I think I'm SJ-like in a lot of ways. (Of course I also seem to be 6w5 )

One of the reasons I'm pretty sure I'm so-last is because I find a lot of social hierarchy stuff not just easily discountable, but ridiculous and kind of contemptible. Anything like office politics, or mutual acquaintances staring bug-eyed at me and saying "omg you don't know so-and-so? He's like the coolest guy around and goes to the hottest parties" just makes me want to laugh in people's faces. Or tell them to grow up and get out of junior high school.

Not that I think being so-first or second means that you have to be "junior high school" in that way. But I think if I were so-first or even second, I would have more of an understanding of why this social/hierarchical stuff exists or plays a role. I do have great respect for authority, though (unless people abuse it, in which case I have great disrespect.)

 

[cascadeco]

BTW some questions for you both: what is it like being a Fe user and So-last? Do you have a clear sense in your mind of where the division between them lies - what the differences are?

I'm not sure I'm a great person to ask, as I tend to have some differing views of how Fe ties into myself that may differ from some of the aspects that can be emphasized on this forum, but I'll try to share how I am. And hopefully what I write will apply to your question/you can make sense of it.

It's probably easiest for me to contrast myself with my nfj so/sx friend, who wears herself thin and has always had the most incredible network of friends and acquaintances, and tends to be involved in a lot and is always busy. In some ways I am in awe of her, just... how does she do that? How does she flit around so easily? How does she know so many people? Of course behind the scenes, I know that she doesn't really connect well with many, but still, she's a good contrast with me because she's heavily involved in so much.

She also succinctly described me once as being 'tactful but direct'. I think this directly ties into Fe (the tactful/diplomatic part, i.e. valuing mode of communication and being very aware of the audience), but I think I'm more direct than many FJ's as well. So I think it's that I value being aware of my audience and perhaps prioritizing their communication/interests/quirks over mine, to facillitate communication, but I am also willing to break the peace and introduce an awkward moment if I feel something needs to be said, or I may not care in certain instances how it will reflect upon me if I say something (or maybe more accurately, I am aware of how it may be viewed, but I am willing to accept that result).

Myself? I'm an uber-hermit in comparison to her, and I tend not to be involved in anything, nor do I really want to be involved in anything, tbh. It's a weird conundrum, as I greatly desire close relationships, and to actually be in a position to meet people means I actually need to get out and do something, and get 'involved' in something, some sort of group, whereby I then have the opportunity to possibly meet like-minded people, but I have no core desire to join a group, start doing group/team activities, etc, so I then tend not to meet people. lol. This has been unchanging my entire life- just a strong distaste for being 'involved' in anything, being a part of a larger group. The only reason I'd join a group is to possibly meet someone I want to be a close friend with, and then do 1:1 stuff with them on the side, and then cease to do the group thing. So the whole thing is just a problem for me.

I guess you could say that the so - group-harmony element isn't really applicable to me because in my free time I prefer not to even be part of a group?

Similarly, at work, I have always tended to be pretty outspoken ->in a diplomatic, unbrash sense, but I still let my thoughts be known. Funnily enough, in a review several months ago (and I think this ties into the so-last thing), my boss told me that one of the things I could work on is being more PC in meetings and not letting any exasperation or frustration be displayed - basically, the gist of all of it is him wanting me to put on the PC-happy face more often, and work towards being more 'part of the company' than setting myself back from it. It was an interesting thing to hear. [I should also note my so/sx friend is far more apt to put on a happy face and say the pleasantries than I am]

On the other hand, in reviews I tend to be rated above expecations for customer service stuff, so I think that ties into knowing my 'audience', knowing who I'm working with, and being able to build those positive 1:1 relationships.

In summary, I think while I may be aware of group dynamics, and what the larger 'Group'/entity is all about, and how I would need to be to totally merge with that group, I just have no desire to do that, and so I then don't really identify myself with any groups/causes, as it's not my concern. But within the group, I focus 1:1 with people, and the Fe comes into play with tailoring communication (more applicable at work) and building those 1:1 relationships. My awareness of 'the group' may help in knowing how to most effectively accomplish something, but I don't really care about identifying myself with the group or keeping the peace.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

Examples of So-Last ISTJ

Natalie Portman: 1w2 Sx/Sp

Robert de Niro: 8w9 Sp/Sx

Sean Connery: 8w9 Sx/Sp

Example of So-Last ESTJ

Uma Thurman: 9w8 Sx/Sp

Examples of So-Last ISFJ

Prince Charles: 1w9 Sp/Sx

Tiger Woods: 3w4 Sp/Sx

Kanye West: 6w7 Sp/Sx

Naomi Watt: 6w7 Sx/Sp

Bruce Willis: 7w8 Sp/Sx

Examples of So-Last ESFJ

Shania Twain: 3w2 Sx/Sp

Victoria Beckham: 3w4 Sp/Sx

Mariah Carey: 9w8 Sx/Sp

Alicia Keys: 9w8 Sx/Sp

 

[EJCC]

This thread has gotten super interesting! Thanks for contributing, everybody

I harbor a suspicion that my boyfriend may be sp/sx and not sp/so like we both originally thought. We are both very certain he's an SJ, and he has confirmed 9w1 sp-dom as well.

We both initially identified sp/so on these grounds: He is very politically and organizationally aware. He almost always knows the names of groups and their function, and he listens to public radio almost every morning to stay abreast of political issues. He is very interested in government functioning and structure, from military strategy to royal ranks. He affiliates himself with the public institution where he works and with the university where he studies (but rarely if ever did with a previous workplace he disliked). He has even once or twice networked one friend in business with another.

However, the below is what is getting to me:

While he is an easygoing and optimistic 9w1, he is also rather quick to draw a solid and curt boundary between himself and another person. He will freely insult someone who has been rude to him, provided he is not at work. He was strictly raised with proper etiquette and behavior, so he still retains much of that, but he also doesn't seem to change very much from hiking a mountain to eating at a fancy restaurant. He does not seem particularly concerned with image and very much dislikes pretense. He enjoys going to the country club, but seems to most appreciate the amenities and comfort - the pool, the food, his friends, the atmosphere, the happy memories. He likes being well-respected and stable but he doesn't seem to be interested in active social positioning, so to speak.

Most significantly, when it comes to his priorities, it seems like first is taking care of the things he needs to take care of (food, work, class, gas, bills, etc.), then spending time with me and doing things together, then finally engaging in other social activities. While we both are interested in socializing positively (volunteering, seeing friends, spending time with family, etc.), that always seems to take a backseat to our other priorities.

I'm not sold either way thus far. Anyone who has an opinion on this is more than welcome to weigh in.

I bolded everything that I really relate to, and since so much is bolded, then I figure if I'm sp/sx, then so is he. I especially related to the comment about behaving the same at the country club as going out hiking. I try to be courteous and respectful to everyone, and the only times I really adapt my behavior to particular groups are when I know that a certain style of speech, or sense of humor, or level of energy, will work better in one setting than another. Example: interacting with my parents' friends, vs. my own friends.

Re: the last bolded, that's pretty much my same order of priority as well; as much as I'd like to think differently, I know that that's how I operate, from experience. If I'm kind of stressed, I become a hermit, and might make contact with individual friends but won't initiate big social gatherings (b/c I won't have the energy). If I'm very stressed, I'll cut the close friends out too, and focus only on meeting my basic needs. It's when I stop eating or sleeping enough, that you should be concerned.

I'm not entirely understanding what you're asking about. I'm an sp/sx ISTJ. I'd say in regard to status/hierarchies... If it's something obvious like a job/position (manager, professor, police officer) - something with a tangible level of authority over me, I'm quite respectful of their authority. If it's something less obvious... Like just hierarchies within a social group... I tend to be oblivious to it. I just don't pick up on those nuances.

No, that pretty much answers my question. And I relate to it, some. It's strange, actually -- I usually understand social group hierarchies, but 1. I do so by analyzing, from the sidelines, how individuals interact with one another, and 2. I never have any idea where I am in the hierarchy. Never, in my life, have I been able to consistently understand how I'm perceived by others; when I was younger, I was secretly insecure about that, and worried that I was somehow disgusting to others and that people were hiding that viewpoint from me. I repressed that insecurity in the name of my Te/Si, because I figured it's better to just do what you're gonna do, as if you're certain, than allow your uncertainty to bog you down into persistent inaction.

Yes, I really relate to this as well. I wouldn’t say I don’t give a toss about disturbing the peace, but I’m far more concerned with ‘the peace’ of the smaller group- if even just a single person I’m with- and it just doesn’t even register to me (well, within reason) to consider the people at the surrounding tables or waitstaff or whatnot.

^ I'm the same way. If I'm never going to interact with someone, then I don't care all that much about whether they like me or not -- but I care very deeply when it comes to my inner circle, people who I desire to admit into that group, or people whose respect I want to earn.

Discussing all this makes me think that perhaps so-last SJs must be more likely to be rebellious or at least more inclined to challenge the status quo in some way. When I think about it, a lot of the SJs I know that are/have been the sort to rebel and test the boundaries of authority. My ISFJ sp/sx mum certainly wasn't a rebel - she was the quiet, good girl. However she certainly will challenge people if they make sexist/racist comments or argue something else she is equally against. And she can get pretty riled up and once she gets the bit between her teeth, she won't let it go.

I think you may be right. I relate to it, anyway. During group activities where you have to compliment each group member anonymously -- for whatever reason, I end up in these group activities regularly -- at least one person will always tell me that they respect me for challenging the general view when they wouldn't have had the courage to do so. (I'm not intending to brag, by bringing this up; honestly, it's not bravery, because it doesn't necessitate overcoming fear, on my part.)

The more I read this thread, the more I realize that I really don't understand any of the instincts very well -- because I've never found an instinct description as thorough and multifaceted as the ones that I find on this forum. Everything else I've found has come down to: So = social groups and politics, Sx = your significant other, Sp = your material well-being, e.g. paying bills, wearing warm clothes when you're cold. I always figured I was So/Sp because I am very into politics/world issues and like spending time with big groups of friends, and don't really prioritize romantic relationships at all. But then I figured out that intensity of communication is just as big a part of Sx -- and that's what I relate to.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

EJCC, I really don't think you are Sp/Sx. That's really not you.

 

[EJCC]

EJCC, I really don't think you are Sp/Sx. That's really not you.

Why are you so certain? [MENTION=5684]Elfboy[/MENTION] thought it was a possibility, at least.

Can you discredit the possible evidence from post #33?


Edit: I'm 20 minutes into this video, and I'm much more open to the Social idea, now. Mostly because of the example of the guy who knew the names of everyone in his class even though he never interacted with them. I relate to that tendency towards wanting to know what's going on with everyone, and I also relate to not having as much sympathy for people who cancel their plans with me because they're feeling low on energy or something like that -- which would mean I'm likely So-dom and not Sp-dom. But that still leaves a lot of questions. Why don't I ever know where I stand within a group? Why do I always feel detached from groups, and why do I still do the "hot and cold" thing associated with Sx? Is my intensity unrelated to my instinct?

Another edit (as I keep watching this video): I related a whole lot to the Sx example of being annoyed that you never got to have one-on-one time with your So friend because they kept inviting other people over too. I actually had to have a talk with one of my friends about that, over Thanksgiving break; I told her that yes, I'd come to her party, as long as I could hang out with her either before or after, to have one-on-one time.

 

[Elfboy]

Speed Gavroche
- Uma Thurman is ISFP or INTJ
- Sean Connery is ENTJ
- Mariah Carey is ESFP

 

[SilkRoad]

Edit: I'm 20 minutes into this video, and I'm much more open to the Social idea, now. Mostly because of the example of the guy who knew the names of everyone in his class even though he never interacted with them. I relate to that, and I also relate to not having as much sympathy for people who cancel their plans with me because they're feeling low on energy or something like that -- which would mean I'm likely So-dom and not Sp-dom. But that still leaves the question of: Why don't I ever know where I stand within a group, why do I always feel detached from groups, and why do I still do the "hot and cold" thing associated with Sx?

Ohhh, that's another reason I'm pretty sure I'm so-last. There are people I see every day at work, but in a different department, and for the life of me I cannot remember their name or exactly what they do. And I really should. :S It's awkward sometimes, I'm really hideous with names and faces. (I think it's more common with introverts, but I think there are introverts who are far better at this than I am.)

I also felt like in school and even other aspects of life, I've never fit into certain "groups". Cliques, I guess. Partly because I don't like cliques much, but just because I find people I like who belong to this group and that group - or better yet, people, who belong to no "group" at all, really, like me. They tend to be the ones I get along with best.

 

[Southern Kross]

No, that pretty much answers my question. And I relate to it, some. It's strange, actually -- I usually understand social group hierarchies, but 1. I do so by analyzing, from the sidelines, how individuals interact with one another, and 2. I never have any idea where I am in the hierarchy. Never, in my life, have I been able to consistently understand how I'm perceived by others; when I was younger, I was secretly insecure about that, and worried that I was somehow disgusting to others and that people were hiding that viewpoint from me. I repressed that insecurity in the name of my Te/Si, because I figured it's better to just do what you're gonna do, as if you're certain, than allow your uncertainty to bog you down into persistent inaction.

Being social-first doesn't necessarily help figuring out what people think of you. You might be better at picking up the signs but any sort of paranoia about it will completely mess with your reading of those signs. Like you say, you've just got to get on with things and try not to think about it. These things tend to surface on their own some time or another.

The more I read this thread, the more I realize that I really don't understand any of the instincts very well -- because I've never found an instinct description as thorough and multifaceted as the ones that I find on this forum. Everything else I've found has come down to: So = social groups and politics, Sx = your significant other, Sp = your material well-being, e.g. paying bills, wearing warm clothes when you're cold. I always figured I was So/Sp because I am very into politics/world issues and like spending time with big groups of friends, and don't really prioritize romantic relationships at all. But then I figured out that intensity of communication is just as big a part of Sx -- and that's what I relate to.

I know what you mean. The problem is on the surface the instincts can come across in totally different ways. A social 3 is the embodiment of the prestige driven, social butterfly but a social 4 can be more of anti-social misfit than any type. The best I've managed to do is make a mental amalgamation of the various descriptions and try to pull something out of it on my own. I've only recently started to grasp the core drive of the social instinct and now I can recognise the underlying patterns of it in other people. I'm still learning when it comes to Sp and Sx.

It's hard for you because you're a 1w2 and you're more likely to be concerned about idealogical issues and causes, which forces you to take note of political issues - so in a sense you are drawn to examine society like a social-first. And being a 1 (and a ESTJ) in general will also make you more likely to challenge people. It does become confusing...

Ohhh, that's another reason I'm pretty sure I'm so-last. There are people I see every day at work, but in a different department, and for the life of me I cannot remember their name or exactly what they do. And I really should. :S It's awkward sometimes, I'm really hideous with names and faces. (I think it's more common with introverts, but I think there are introverts who are far better at this than I am.)

I also felt like in school and even other aspects of life, I've never fit into certain "groups". Cliques, I guess. Partly because I don't like cliques much, but just because I find people I like who belong to this group and that group - or better yet, people, who belong to no "group" at all, really, like me. They tend to be the ones I get along with best.

Well, I'm hopeless with names and remembering people, and I never fit in, so don't let that rule it out.

The cliques can drive me crazy but I do have a good understanding of them. I do this thing where shortly after meeting someone I get a sense where they were in the social hierarchy of high school. I don't really place any value on that, because lets face it, High School evaluation of human worth is total BS. I suppose what I really am picking up on is a combination of: (a degree of) attractiveness, confidence, and Emotional Intelligence - these seem to be the things that make people skilled at navigating the social world.

But seriously [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] you don't really sound like a social-first based on what you've said in this thread. You're an extrovert so you're going to be socially oriented. My ESTJ sx/sp sister also takes interest in what's going on with others but has the intensity and whole hot-and-cold thing going on. She's not as interested in politics and world events, though. And even though she's very sociable and has range of friends, she is inclined to have one good friend at a time and focus most of her time and attention on that person - which I think you've said before you don't do as much, right?

I suppose the possibility is that you could be a sx/so but I couldn't say for sure. Are you sure about being Sp-first? Do you relate well to Sp 1 descriptions?

 

[EJCC]

Okay, I'm gonna stop derailing, and move this topic to its own thread. (I'll reply to your post there, [MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION]. )

Carry on, old chaps!

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Yes I do imagine that must be how it feels to be on the receiving end of the "shushing". I can see how it seems disrespectful and dismissive. My family gets into arguments over this and I hear similar objections. It's just that, from the So-first perspective it can seem like a lot of unnecessary (and maybe even self-indulgent) grandstanding about your opinion/feelings/rights- of course, I know this isn't the intention but it's how it comes across.

Your story about the focus being on the surrounding people (and how it contrasted to my experience) triggered interest because it brought to mind something I’d read before about how our dominant instinct drive is actually dominant as a compensation for the lack of that need being met initially. Having a mother that focused on filling the social needs enabled me to take that one for granted, and so it makes sense that I’d feel an unconscious preoccupation with filling the need that wasn’t being filled around me. I just don’t feel any anxiety about the kinds of things that give so variant people anxiety because I didn’t grow up with any sense of scarcity in that regard- yet individuals didn’t matter, and that presented its own scarcity that I became sensitive to. Although it’s not quite so clean cut as that, because it doesn’t especially explain how siblings would have different instinct variants, it’s interesting to consider because it probably does deserve *some* merit. Maybe it seems like “unnecessary (and maybe even self-indulgent) grandstanding about your opinions/feelings/rights” because so variant doms could take that for granted (and so the notion of a scarcity of it wouldn’t be threatening or cause anxiety….yet feelings of not being part of the bigger group do?).

It’s funny, sometimes I do feel the weight of the consequences of being least so variant- because my mother is no longer a factor of daily life, those needs (networking and such) are not being met and so it’s a serious inconvenience at times to be least so variant…..a serious inconvenience. But I have an inordinately difficult time in-the-moment focusing on making so variant needs a priority. It’s incredibly taxing to me. I only feel the negative consequences of not attending to it in retrospect.

BTW some questions for you both: what is it like being a Fe user and So-last? Do you have a clear sense in your mind of where the division between them lies - what the differences are?

I’d be really interested in hearing an ESFJ answer this. I don’t know, it seems to me like being Ni dominant doesn’t make it seem like such a stretch. Especially being e5. I just don’t relate to descriptions of Fe at all until I break it down and see it as a means to an end (and think of it exclusively in terms of ‘means’ or process), but my ‘ends’ themselves look nothing like what the ends of ‘Fe’ are supposed to look like according to most descriptions. [I guess that’s the answer: that I just don’t relate to Fe descriptions at all….but then even the INFJs who are so dominant often can’t relate to them very well either, so ]


***

In regards to remembering the names of people at work- I'm good with names, but I'm the kind of person who can work alongside someone for a year and not know they have kids, what their interests are or anything like that unless they volunteer that info themselves. And reciprocally, it never occurs to me to talk about my private life unless I'm specifically asked (and really, I don't especially like being asked unless I've hit it off with someone in particular- so I just instinctively give short answers and try to evade the questions).