[Type 7] Sevens fear getting old?

[brainheart]

Now when you say ENFP 4w3s above are you referring to:

a.) Unicorns
b.) actual ENFP 4w3s
c.) Elves
d.) Sasquatches

or

e.) actual ENFP 7s that merely believe they are *way too deep and intellectual and self-aware* to be a 7 and so they mistype as 4w3s


^I realize most people may attribute this 'Clementine phenomenon' to 'c.) Elves'... but my gut is telling me e.) might be involved somehow... that e.) might unlock the mystery for as to why all these 4s relate to such a quintessential e7 character.

a. It's the colorful hair.

I'm not sure if you know them... they're a couple of mean bitches that go by the user names are 'brainheart' and 'Starry' have you heard of them?

haha no, we were talking about the feeling of being pulled-under...the sensation that your 4 is stuck in heavy, knee-deep, emotional mud/quicksand...and you might get stuck too...or possibly sucked into 'the vortex of the forever oh noes'... do you remember that conversation we had?

er... sort of?

I don't remember all of what you were discussing/considering in your OMFG I'm a sp 4w5 thread... But I watched this video the other day and just thought I'd pass it along...

I had originally searched youtube for a video of this song (Something in the Way) because I wanted to be clever and attach it in Ginkgo's Vegetarianism thread. This is because one of my favorite lines/lyric of all time is "It's okay to eat fish 'cause they don't have any feelings."

^I've thought about how a lyric like this could separate actual NFPs...from the NFP mistypes. I've seen this a few times before... an individual defending an NFP typing... and in doing so... appearing to communicate in a more loose and whimsical way...while seemingly quadrupling the number of whispy, nonsensical, fragmented sentences they make use of. But this to me generally stands as evidence against NFP. iow, contrary to popular opinion, when an actual NFP goes to make a point...they aren't going to say a million (quirky) things in an effort to convey one idea. An actual NFP is going to pack a million ideas into a single phrase. This is how I feel about this lyric.

I'm attaching this here though as opposed to there because of what happens at 3.45


I don't know whether Cobain is a 4w5 or 5w4. Riso and Hudson put him at 5w4...other sources insist on 4w5. I have always leaned 5w4 but it's confusing. Like in this clip...he is onstage...reading some sort of book...while some other musicians are setting-up...and I wonder...was he 'casually' reading as part of a 'chill' image he was living-out...or was he actually attempting to escape/detach/remove himself from an overwhelming situation?

He was undoubtedly sx/sp though...and at 3.45...he questions and was preparing to go off on an audience member until he discovers he has heard them wrong. It's subtle...and I imagine most people viewing this incident wouldn't think much of it...but NFP to NFP...I think you will know just how intense that was...just how offended he was if only for a moment. That to me is the 4 + 5 + sx/sp anger people have been mentioning. He would have gone off on an audience member during a live, MTV performance had things gone differently...and there's something just stunning to me about that.

Agree with bolded.

Yeah, possibly sx/sp- I wouldn't say undoubtedly. I don't think he's reading a book- I think he's looking at the song list or adjusting something or other performance related. I'd say he was preparing as well for the next song but I also agree with escaping/detaching/removing. He's an uncomfortable INFP, center stage. That's what we's do.

I would go off on someone on mtv too. I don't think that's exclusively sx/sp- more 4/5 and Fi dom than anything else.

 

[Animal]

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]

I didn't think it was directed at me - I type at 4w5 anyway so it didn't even occur to me that it had anything to do with me. I just wanted to put in my two cents about the character.

I don't care about people thinking I'm mistyped - it's a non issue. I would love to hear any thought you want to share but I know my core type. It's fine to have debates about things though- that's what the forum is for. I love type suggestions, mistype suggestions - none of that bothers me. So I wasn't writing that post to be defensive but rather to express my thoughts because I had many thoughts about clementine. My father is a 7w8 and was a famous rockstar in the 60s, 164 IQ - he is a psychiatrist now. I am under no misconception that 7s are happy fluff bunnies who can't be deep , hard working or introspective. So I am far from upset by any 7 suggestion, in fact I love it . I just prefer expressing myself honestly when I felt like a sentiment was misunderstood.

 

[Starry]

a. It's the colorful hair.

Chemical toxins found at high levels in hair coloring products... that's it. That's absolutely it.

Agree with bolded.

Yeah, possibly sx/sp- I wouldn't say undoubtedly. I don't think he's reading a book- I think he's looking at the song list or adjusting something or other performance related. I'd say he was preparing as well for the next song but I also agree with escaping/detaching/removing. He's an uncomfortable INFP, center stage. That's what we's do.

I would go off on someone on mtv too. I don't think that's exclusively sx/sp- more 4/5 and Fi dom than anything else.

Yah...I couldn't tell what he was reading but assumed it was probably 'performance related' somehow (haha...what if he was reading some challenging classic Russian literature or something haha 'dude this concert fuckin rocks...the way Cobain just sat there reading Dostoyevsky for 43 minutes...I'll never forget this night man - Never!")

Okay, see that's interesting to me...and part of what I was looking for. I would imagine only the sx/sp 4w5/5w4 as becoming personally offended enough that they would take it to that level...that they wouldn't be able to hold themselves back from responding in that instance...to lash out in a public space... but I'll take what you say into consideration. (As Ne>Fi sx/sp lashing out would be an absolute last case scenario. If I was on stage and thought an audience member said 'hurry-up' or something equally personally offensive to me...I would maintain my composure. I would see the other band members as my *intimates* and feel a responsibility to them. I wouldn't hesitate to shut the individual/heckler down in a outwardly charming/hiddenly aggressive joke way...or discreetly ask a bouncer to remove the person discreetly haha. But for me...telling some supposed asshole off wouldn't be larger than all of what was going on in that situation...and yes, it does fascinate me to think 4s would move forward with the lashing-out...)

honestly, I wasn't trying to convince you of sx/sp...I really don't know.

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]

I didn't think it was directed at me - I type at 4w5 anyway so it didn't even occur to me that it had anything to do with me. I just wanted to put in my two cents about the character.

I don't care about people thinking I'm mistyped - it's a non issue. I would love to hear any thought you want to share but I know my core type. It's fine to have debates about things though- that's what the forum is for .

I thought what you had to say about Clementine and many women being able to relate to her was interesting because I see it so differently and I really like alternative takes on things.

Oh, I was merely commenting because I thought it was something you actually wanted to hear from me. It takes a lot of energy for me to do this kind of thing... I feel like I'm saying the same things over and over...attempting to champion what will eventually be beneficial information to the person. If there's one thing I know so well from having done this for a while...is people get very attached to their types. So much so that they actually feel offended if it is questioned. Even in threads where people have created them for the purpose of typing...the individual is claiming to be open to suggestions as in "type me, I'm confused" <-even then people will become offended with suggestions that are not inline with what they want to believe about themselves. It's exhausting and I will only do it if I absolutely know the person will benefit from being correctly typed...and are open-minded. Because of this...if you are confident of your type...then I will just pass.

 

[Elfboy]

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]

(As Ne>Fi sx/sp lashing out would be an absolute last case scenario. If I was on stage and thought an audience member said 'hurry-up' or something equally personally offensive to me...I would maintain my composure. I would see the other band members as my *intimates* and feel a responsibility to them. I wouldn't hesitate to shut the individual/heckler down in a outwardly charming/hiddenly aggressive joke way...or discreetly ask a bouncer to remove the person discreetly haha. But for me...telling some supposed asshole off wouldn't be larger than all of what was going on in that situation...and yes, it does fascinate me to think 4s would move forward with the lashing-out...)

I would just laugh at them and not say anything (granted, being a deep voiced male has its perks. this is a bit trickier to pull off otherwise)

Now when you say ENFP 4w3s above are you referring to:
a.) Unicorns
b.) actual ENFP 4w3s
c.) Elves
d.) Sasquatches
or
e.) actual ENFP 7s that merely believe they are *way too deep and intellectual and self-aware* to be a 7 and so they mistype as 4w3s

in order of likelihood A>E>C>B>D

 

[Ginkgo]

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION], I appreciate your contributions re: 7-ish coping mechanisms. In my experience, they do find ways to have their cake and eat it to by living vicariously through their experiences, in a way. If 7s find the right outlet, their activities fulfill the same purpose as the E4-ish drive to discover the self. The direction of energy is simply reversed. An inverse rule may apply to 4s, though, in that even though they nearly practice the opposite of hedonism, positive opportunities may fling themselves at the 4 to be dismissed while still acting as a means to affirm the 4s sense of autonomy and individuality. So, in a sense, both types can have their cake and eat it too.

 

[Starry]

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]

I would just laugh at them and not say anything

Yah, I was actually running a variety of scenarios through my mind and in none of them did "WHAT did you say?" (or becoming offended) enter into my mind.

I mean, if you really want to get real with "positive-outlook and narcissism"...when I first heard that audience member... I actually thought she said 'hurry-up' too. And the *positive spin* my mind had put on that moments before Cobain's response registered... I was interpreting it as an expression of excitement..."like screaming teenagers saying hurry-up we just can't wait for the next song with those hippie lookin dudes!" Like, an understood way of saying "we just can't get enough of you." <-Whoa, but when I put myself into the position of performer...things get even a little weirder...

If I put myself into Cobain's position and I'm completely honest with myself... I could see myself thinking "Of course he wants me to hurry-up poor guy. Here I'm making 18 million on this show...while he probably lost a days wages having to take a day off to come here...not to mention the $775. ticket purchase..."

 

[OrangeAppled]

Now when you say ENFP 4w3s above are you referring to:

a.) Unicorns
b.) actual ENFP 4w3s
c.) Elves
d.) Sasquatches

or

e.) actual ENFP 7s that merely believe they are *way too deep and intellectual and self-aware* to be a 7 and so they mistype as 4w3s


^I realize most people may attribute this 'Clementine phenomenon' to 'c.) Elves'... but my gut is telling me e.) might be involved somehow... that e.) might unlock the mystery for as to why all these 4s relate to such a quintessential e7 character.

Thank you for the link brainheart I'll check it out.

I agree that she is quintessentially 7 (not envy fixated, not depressive, not withdrawn). I suspect ENFPs relate to her being ExFP though, regardless of their eneatype. And while her character is not socially acceptable in reality, it's a romantic ideal in pop culture, & lots of women may romanticize that even if it is not a reflection of how they are. The character herself notes this in a speech to the Joel character (ie. she's not a "concept").

I know I can relate to many INFPs who are not 4s but 9s, or the occasional 5 or 6 INFP. It's just because they are INFP, or something it's not type related at all. It's not very accurate to type based mainly on who you relate to, both in typing yourself or a character.

I don't remember all of what you were discussing/considering in your OMFG I'm a sp 4w5 thread... But I watched this video the other day and just thought I'd pass it along...

I had originally searched youtube for a video of this song (Something in the Way) because I wanted to be clever and attach it in Ginkgo's Vegetarianism thread. This is because one of my favorite lines/lyric of all time is "It's okay to eat fish 'cause they don't have any feelings."

^I've thought about how a lyric like this could separate actual NFPs...from the NFP mistypes. I've seen this a few times before... an individual defending an NFP typing... and in doing so... appearing to communicate in a more loose and whimsical way...while seemingly quadrupling the number of whispy, nonsensical, fragmented sentences they make use of. But this to me generally stands as evidence against NFP. iow, contrary to popular opinion, when an actual NFP goes to make a point...they aren't going to say a million (quirky) things in an effort to convey one idea. An actual NFP is going to pack a million ideas into a single phrase. This is how I feel about this lyric.

Could you explain this more?

I frankly find NFPs to be rather long-winded, not in a negative sense, and I'd include you there. I also find it typical for expressions to be disjointed as well. This paragraph of yours seems to support that!
But I may be interpreting your point incorrectly.

I haven't questioned the "whimsical" speech as I assumed those were e9 INFPs (who sometimes mistype as 4).
I think some NFPs may manage to pack a lot into one line (to maximize value/meaning), particularly when "composing", but I also notice a fair amount of rambling & grasping for the right angle in more casual speech. I always feel like it comes back around full circle into one tidy main point.

What types do you propose are mistyping as NFP and doing this?

I do recall Isabel Myers noting how SJs, with tert or inferior Ne, can be the most random in conversation. NPs are not truly random, it's just that we don't explain all connections we see because it's so obvious to us. Often all the tangents eventually tie the loose ends up into one larger concept. But SJs are more like train hoppers where you end up somewhere totally different from where you set out, with no idea how you got there or why, and there doesn't seem to be any larger purpose for going so far off-track. They mostly do this in casual, leisure conversation (where a baby Ne may be stress relief, not main mentality). Sometimes this is quirky & cute too, showing hefty imagination not fairly attributed to SJs ever, & perhaps that's where a feeling of whimsy comes in. They're far more head-spinning to me than the average NP, especially ExFJs. However, I don't see the heavy use of metaphor that peppers NFP speech. It's lacking the poetry, but I don't know if that's what you meant by "whimsical".

How do you make the distinction between someone who is truly an NFP vs mistyped but acting the type in defense of it?

I don't know whether Cobain is a 4w5 or 5w4. Riso and Hudson put him at 5w4...other sources insist on 4w5. I have always leaned 5w4 but it's confusing. Like in this clip...he is onstage...reading some sort of book...while some other musicians are setting-up...and I wonder...was he 'casually' reading as part of a 'chill' image he was living-out...or was he actually attempting to escape/detach/remove himself from an overwhelming situation?

He was undoubtedly sx/sp though...and at 3.45...he questions and was preparing to go off on an audience member until he discovers he has heard them wrong. It's subtle...and I imagine most people viewing this incident wouldn't think much of it...but NFP to NFP...I think you will know just how intense that was...just how offended he was if only for a moment. That to me is the 4 + 5 + sx/sp anger people have been mentioning. He would have gone off on an audience member during a live, MTV performance had things gone differently...and there's something just stunning to me about that.

4s have trouble with actual spontaneity. This is in terms of acting as who we are/feel vs trying to align with our inner ideal, because we feel who we are/feel is ugly/defective. That's counter to most people's grasp of how a 4 supposedly tries to be "authentic", but to a 4, the inner ideal is seen as the more authentic self in a way. The reality is that the average 4 is quite contrived.

So to me, he seems very contrived in that action. It is also 5ish, in that a comfortable pose with prop is used to create a barrier from others, to protect his emotional space. It's almost like becoming a statue. It's no different than someone dining alone in restaurant bringing their book along; but this is sort of an approach to life for a 5. Funny how you see literal manifestations at times of life strategies in a specific moment.

His reactiveness does seem more 4ish over all, but I don't know how much a 5w4 might be reactive if sx-dom with a heavy wing. He's usually typed as 5 & I'm not an avid fan so I don't bother to question those who are & say so .

I don't actually know what this thread is about, so apologies for any interruption of the main topic. I just saw this post on my home page & it caught my attention .

 

[Animal]

I thought what you had to say about Clementine and many women being able to relate to her was interesting because I see it so differently and I really like alternative takes on things.

Why do you see it differently?

I think [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] made a good point. It's possible to relate strongly to people of any type. I relate to the woman in the movie "Love and Other Drugs" - not because of her personality per se (I have no clue what her type could be) … but because we both have a similar struggle, knowing we are stuck with an illness for life. Having a chronic illness and feeling like I'm not "enough" for anyone I date because I'm just a burden…. is basically what the movie is about, and it's a real issue for me. So I cried my eyes out when I watched it. But she could really be any type, totally different tritype.. it's experience that we shared.

As OA pointed out, a lot of people might see "pieces of themselves" in Clementine than their actual selves- or some projection of themselves. "I'm not a concept.." that was a very good point. Clementine is a symbol of something universal. Independent thinking, freedom of expression, wild emotions, being young and excited, etc.

There is a lot of writing about 4s wanting to be unique, but I think that a mature 4 would want to figure out what niche she could occupy that expresses her as she is and unites her with the world (holy origin). I have always wanted to be a symbol of myself. I want to stand for who I am, stand for my passion, stand for what I believe. A lot of 4s I've spoken to have a similar idea about their art etc. The way I see it, art is a mirror. I don't want my art to merely reflect ME, I want it to reflect something universal. I want people to see themselves in my work. Alone, we are all one. In expressing myself alone, as an individual, I am uniting my individual self with everyone - mirroring something in humanity. I think a lot of powerful art can do this. Since the movie was so powerful, it's easy for people to see themselves in both characters, and especially Clementine because she even admits that she is often seen as a concept. A lot of people know how it feels to be seen as a 'concept' - not just 7s.

I did not feel like I "relate" to her more than any other strongly written character, per se. I'm highly empathetic and can see pieces of myself in a lot of characters. I get very 'involved' in movies, feel their feelings, feel their sensations. But in that movie if I had to relate to one of them it's Joel. I relate to her vaguely, but more so related with his frustration of feeling like he loved her so much but he could never really possess her.

Oh, I was merely commenting because I thought it was something you actually wanted to hear from me. It takes a lot of energy for me to do this kind of thing... I feel like I'm saying the same things over and over...attempting to champion what will eventually be beneficial information to the person. If there's one thing I know so well from having done this for a while...is people get very attached to their types. So much so that they actually feel offended if it is questioned. Even in threads where people have created them for the purpose of typing...the individual is claiming to be open to suggestions as in "type me, I'm confused" <-even then people will become offended with suggestions that are not inline with what they want to believe about themselves. It's exhausting and I will only do it if I absolutely know the person will benefit from being correctly typed...and are open-minded. Because of this...if you are confident of your type...then I will just pass.

I completely agree. I rarely get involved in typing others either. Can't blame you.

I've been studying enneagram a while and I've been on PerC for three years - and I would like to say I'm "open minded" but when I've already studied for a while and read all the classics and so forth.. it takes more weight to really consider a suggestion. It has to really hit home. Because a lot of thought already went into my current typing. Anyway I guess what I was saying is, if you have something you want to say, feel free - I am not going to get snappy and rude - but it's probably a waste of time unless you know me a while and have a REALLY substantial case that would be strong enough to overturn all of the previous studying.

But- - admittedly I am curious about you and how you related to the posts (anything you wish to share of course) because I feel that you're a correctly typed 7.. and a well-spoken one. So if you thought there were sentiments you related to I'd love to hear. That was what I meant. I'm not looking for typing suggestions but I'm not averse to thoughts, either. I completely understand the passing though. Typing people is annoying as hell for all the reasons you mentioned and more, and really there's no point because I'm happy with my current typing. It's more that I'm interested in your actual thoughts. Regardless of my core typing, we are both the same tritype.

 

[Starry]

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION], I appreciate your contributions re: 7-ish coping mechanisms. In my experience, they do find ways to have their cake and eat it to by living vicariously through their experiences, in a way. If 7s find the right outlet, their activities fulfill the same purpose as the E4-ish drive to discover the self. The direction of energy is simply reversed. An inverse rule may apply to 4s, though, in that even though they nearly practice the opposite of hedonism, positive opportunities may fling themselves at the 4 to be dismissed while still acting as a means to affirm the 4s sense of autonomy and individuality. So, in a sense, both types can have their cake and eat it too.

I loved this Ginkgo. So much so that behind your back I purchased the legal rights to this passage...and from now on will be presenting it as my own. So thank you haha.

(I also reserved the legal right to comment on it further.)

I agree that she is quintessentially 7 (not envy fixated, not depressive, not withdrawn). I suspect ENFPs relate to her being ExFP though, regardless of their eneatype. And while her character is not socially acceptable in reality, it's a romantic ideal in pop culture, & lots of women may romanticize that even if it is not a reflection of how they are. The character herself notes this in a speech to the Joel character (ie. she's not a "concept").

I know I can relate to many INFPs who are not 4s but 9s, or the occasional 5 or 6 INFP. It's just because they are INFP, or something it's not type related at all. It's not very accurate to type based mainly on who you relate to, both in typing yourself or a character.

^^Well, I took all of what you said above into consideration prior to making the statements that I did...and having just double-checked everything again in my mind (and then some) I continue to stand by the suspicions/suspected conclusions I put forth.

Part of this has to do with the fact that I do not see her as an especially ENFP character in the first place...so if I were strip away most of her extremely exaggerated e7 traits... and replace them with traits from any other point on the enneagram (say brought it down to the 7 fix level)... there just wouldn't be enough there for me to say "omg I totally relate to her! It's like she's me...but in movie character form." You may disagree here...but if an ENFP is relating to Clementine...they are connecting with 7 not ENFP.

Which makes sense does it not? All ENFPs have a little 7 in them...so of course they will relate to an e7 character...no matter how many steroids it's on. Nevertheless, I personally make a rather large distinction between these two things:

1.) Clementine is so quirky! I relate to her...I see myself in her character.

and

2.) I consider myself to be knowledgeable enough in enneagram theory to discuss it openly and to feel very confident in my ENFP 4w3 typing. And I don't just see aspects of myself in this character that I relate to...Oh no. I relate to this character so much that because I'm an enneagram 4...I believe she's an e4 as well.

It's similar in my mind to how I relate to Amargith. I love her...think she's wonderful...have a sense of pride in the ENFP type when I read her posts...understand there is much I can learn from her, etc. I connect with her ENFP - ENFP / 7 core - 7 fix.... What you'll never see out of me though...is me attempting to argue she's an enneagram 7.

As for Clementine and this notion of being a "concept"...I actually addressed this earlier on and perhaps it is the case that I appeared to contradict myself later on idk. Here I'm making another distinction between men and women seeing me/Clem as the harbinger of *happiness/carefreeness/good spirits* (ultimately being unwilling to take on the whole person, to accept that I'm human and flawed and not 100% in love with life every moment of every century...) And having many women that relate to me (or the character of Clementine.) I make the further distinction between actually relating...and merely saying "that sure looks like fun but no way would I be stupid enough to actually be that concept.' haha)

Could you explain this more?

I frankly find NFPs to be rather long-winded, not in a negative sense, and I'd include you there. I also find it typical for expressions to be disjointed as well. This paragraph of yours seems to support that!
But I may be interpreting your point incorrectly.

I haven't questioned the "whimsical" speech as I assumed those were e9 INFPs (who sometimes mistype as 4).
I think some NFPs may manage to pack a lot into one line (to maximize value/meaning), particularly when "composing", but I also notice a fair amount of rambling & grasping for the right angle in more casual speech. I always feel like it comes back around full circle into one tidy main point.

What types do you propose are mistyping as NFP and doing this?

I do recall Isabel Myers noting how SJs, with tert or inferior Ne, can be the most random in conversation. NPs are not truly random, it's just that we don't explain all connections we see because it's so obvious to us. Often all the tangents eventually tie the loose ends up into one larger concept. But SJs are more like train hoppers where you end up somewhere totally different from where you set out, with no idea how you got there or why, and there doesn't seem to be any larger purpose for going so far off-track. They mostly do this in casual, leisure conversation (where a baby Ne may be stress relief, not main mentality). Sometimes this is quirky & cute too, showing hefty imagination not fairly attributed to SJs ever, & perhaps that's where a feeling of whimsy comes in. They're far more head-spinning to me than the average NP, especially ExFJs. However, I don't see the heavy use of metaphor that peppers NFP speech. It's lacking the poetry, but I don't know if that's what you meant by "whimsical".

How do you make the distinction between someone who is truly an NFP vs mistyped but acting the type in defense of it?

The only reason I become long winded here is because no one ever understands what the fuck I'm saying (I also experience in somewhat equal parts...people that know exactly what I'm saying but because I've been too blunt...because I've brushed-up against something they do not want to look at...it's being willfully misunderstood on some level.) But I consider you a hundred times more winded than I. Do you really see ENFPs as being wordy? I do not at all...and when I communicate with an ENFP it's done so with very short back and forth sentences.

When I see an ENFP getting wordy on this site I know with near certainty that they are attempting to explain themselves...that they feel compelled to explain something and are trying to reach everyone. When an NFP is confident in what they have to say...I believe...I *know* it will be short and clever.

Yes, NFJs are more likely the wordy ones in my mind as well as the SFJs. NFJs seem to go into great detail with regards to how this thought took form, etc. while SFJs go into great detail about how great their personal lives are idk haha.

No, NFPs present their formed...and even 'unformed' ideas etc. in much smaller bites imo.

4s have trouble with actual spontaneity. This is in terms of acting as who we are/feel vs trying to align with our inner ideal, because we feel who we are/feel is ugly/defective. That's counter to most people's grasp of how a 4 supposedly tries to be "authentic", but to a 4, the inner ideal is seen as the more authentic self in a way. The reality is that the average 4 is quite contrived.

So to me, he seems very contrived in that action. It is also 5ish, in that a comfortable pose with prop is used to create a barrier from others, to protect his emotional space. It's almost like becoming a statue. It's no different than someone dining alone in restaurant bringing their book along; but this is sort of an approach to life for a 5. Funny how you see literal manifestations at times of life strategies in a specific moment.

His reactiveness does seem more 4ish over all, but I don't know how much a 5w4 might be reactive if sx-dom with a heavy wing. He's usually typed as 5 & I'm not an avid fan so I don't bother to question those who are & say so .

Yup.

 

[OrangeAppled]

^^Well, I took all of what you said above into consideration prior to making the statements that I did...and having just double-checked everything again in my mind (and then some) I continue to stand by the suspicions/suspected conclusions I put forth.

Part of this has to do with the fact that I do not see her as an especially ENFP character in the first place...so if I were strip away most of her extremely exaggerated e7 traits... and replace them with traits from any other point on the enneagram (say brought it down to the 7 fix level)... there just wouldn't be enough there for me to say "omg I totally relate to her! It's like she's me...but in movie character form." You may disagree here...but if an ENFP is relating to Clementine...they are connecting with 7 not ENFP.

Which makes sense does it not? All ENFPs have a little 7 in them...so of course they will relate to an e7 character...no matter how many steroids it's on. Nevertheless, I personally make a rather large distinction between these two things:

1.) Clementine is so quirky! I relate to her...I see myself in her character.

and

2.) I consider myself to be knowledgeable enough in enneagram theory to discuss it openly and to feel very confident in my ENFP 4w3 typing. And I don't just see aspects of myself in this character that I relate to...Oh no. I relate to this character so much that because I'm an enneagram 4...I believe she's an e4 as well.

It's similar in my mind to how I relate to Amargith. I love her...think she's wonderful...have a sense of pride in the ENFP type when I read her posts...understand there is much I can learn from her, etc. I connect with her ENFP - ENFP / 7 core - 7 fix.... What you'll never see out of me though...is me attempting to argue she's an enneagram 7.

As for Clementine and this notion of being a "concept"...I actually addressed this earlier on and perhaps it is the case that I appeared to contradict myself later on idk. Here I'm making another distinction between men and women seeing me/Clem as the harbinger of *happiness/carefreeness/good spirits* (ultimately being unwilling to take on the whole person, to accept that I'm human and flawed and not 100% in love with life every moment of every century...) And having many women that relate to me (or the character of Clementine.) I make the further distinction between actually relating...and merely saying "that sure looks like fun but no way would I be stupid enough to actually be that concept.' haha)

I'm not sure that many people are self-aware enough to always distinguish between what appeals to them & how they really are. For this reason, people mistype to begin with. I've mentioned before that I think some ESFJ mistype as ENFP partly because the ENFP is a modern ideal for a woman, a romantic one; there's either poor grasp of typology and/or poor grasp of self going on.

I really think your #2 is just someone not using typology well. It doesn't necessarily indicate they've typed themselves wrong.

I really have that reaction to Amelie, who gets typed as INFJ by some, and who seems far more 9w1 than 4w5. But I heavily relate to that character. I don't believe this means I am mistyped. I might say something akin to "she's like me, but in movie character form", but if I did a deeper analysis, then I'd easily begin to point out where my envy is glaring & it's not apparent in that character.

But Amelie's extremely withdrawn, a daydreamer, with a sneaky vengeance born out of empathy - this would resonate with quite a few introverts, probably. Even some ISFPs want to claim her.

I think Clementine is ExFP enough that any ExFP might relate somewhat to her. She's not just carefree, but also dramatic, self-indulgent & defiant. That could be an sx 4, although I agree the whole character does not fit 4, but 7.
The built in 7ish-ness in ENFPs you note might also just be that 7 profiles can be Ne heavy. 4 profiles are often Fi heavy though, but not all 4s are Fi-dom. So is this the matter of the nature of the fixation or just profiles often based on how a person of a type typically appears?

I suppose my main point is that who we relate to in the movies doesn't necessarily indicate our type.
Although I'm not disagreeing that some ENFPs who type as 4 may not be mistyped as 7. That's supposedly a common mistyping according to the "experts" out there too.

The only reason I become long winded here is because no one ever understands what the fuck I'm saying (I also experience in somewhat equal parts...people that know exactly what I'm saying but because I've been too blunt...because I've brushed-up against something they do not want to look at...it's being willfully misunderstood on some level.) But I consider you a hundred times more winded than I. Do you really see ENFPs as being wordy? I do not at all...and when I communicate with an ENFP it's done so with very short back and forth sentences.

Well that's more common than not for an INFP & I'm not surprised it occurs with ENFPs too. Yes, I am much more long-winded you. But the frustration with being misunderstood & assumption it's almost inevitable leads to this in many an INFP, IMO. Plus we just read too many old novels . INFPs frequently are verbose, when 4 especially. But I am referring to the written word, not verbal communication. I find ENFPs nearly as likely as many INFPs to make long posts around here.

In speaking, I can be brief in a wry way, but occasionally monologue if I get to discuss a theory or philosophy. Otherwise, I have little to say & would most accurately be called quiet, which I am called.

When I see an ENFP getting wordy on this site I know with near certainty that they are attempting to explain themselves...that they feel compelled to explain something and are trying to reach everyone. When an NFP is confident in what they have to say...I believe...I *know* it will be short and clever.

I would say that INFPs are frequently not confident though. In person we may stay quiet unless able to confidently explain ourselves succinctly or just giving brief perceptive comments as playfulness... But I wouldn't call myself clever. If I manage a brief witty line, then I've thought too long to form it & the moment has passed. This is why everything is so much more interesting my head, including me.

Yes, NFJs are more likely the wordy ones in my mind as well as the SFJs. NFJs seem to go into great detail with regards to how this thought took form, etc. while SFJs go into great detail about how great their personal lives are idk haha.

No, NFPs present their formed...and even 'unformed' ideas etc. in much smaller bites imo.

I disagree with the last sentence for INFPs, because we may over explain out of expectation of being misunderstood & we like poetic flourishes too much. Perhaps it's true for ENFPs, and I do find them more interested in shorter back & forth quips, but INFPs monologue frequently in writing. INTPs are guilty of being verbose at times also. ISxPs are the least verbal ones of the introverts, IMO.

Since wait - you think I'm long-winded (which I am), not INFP then?

 

[Starry]

I'm not sure that many people are self-aware enough to always distinguish between what appeals to them & how they really are. For this reason, people mistype to begin with. I've mentioned before that I think some ESFJ mistype as ENFP partly because the ENFP is a modern ideal for a woman, a romantic one; there's either poor grasp of typology and/or poor grasp of self going on.

I really think your #2 is just someone not using typology well. It doesn't necessarily indicate they've typed themselves wrong.

I really have that reaction to Amelie, who gets typed as INFJ by some, and who seems far more 9w1 than 4w5. But I heavily relate to that character. I don't believe this means I am mistyped. I might say something akin to "she's like me, but in movie character form", but if I did a deeper analysis, then I'd easily begin to point out where my envy is glaring & it's not apparent in that character.

But Amelie's extremely withdrawn, a daydreamer, with a sneaky vengeance born out of empathy - this would resonate with quite a few introverts, probably. Even some ISFPs want to claim her.

I think Clementine is ExFP enough that any ExFP might relate somewhat to her. She's not just carefree, but also dramatic, self-indulgent & defiant. That could be an sx 4, although I agree the whole character does not fit 4, but 7.
The built in 7ish-ness in ENFPs you note might also just be that 7 profiles can be Ne heavy. 4 profiles are often Fi heavy though, but not all 4s are Fi-dom. So is this the matter of the nature of the fixation or just profiles often based on how a person of a type typically appears?

I suppose my main point is that who we relate to in the movies doesn't necessarily indicate our type.
Although I'm not disagreeing that some ENFPs who type as 4 may not be mistyped as 7. That's supposedly a common mistyping according to the "experts" out there too.

OA, I'll be honest with you and say that I get the sense...from your initial post as well as this more recent response I've quoted...that you were looking for some amusement last night in the form of argument/debate...or perhaps there's some unknown element in what I've said that bothers you (I sometimes think just anyone talking about INFP e4 bothers you tbh)...and so you're challenging me merely to challenge. <-Which normally I welcome. Seriously, I will play 'devil's advocate' in my own mind just to solidify my understanding of things. But you aren't really functioning as such and so I'm left with no comprehension of what your aim is here.

What is it that you're wanting me to submit/surrender to? The reason I'm asking this...the reason I'm saying you're merely challenging to challenge is because you're taking an argumentative stance...and yet not entirely disagreeing with me either...which may in fact be because you sense it would be foolish to do so.

You indicate that your main point is "who we relate to in the movies doesn't necessarily indicate our type." Which good to know and thank you for that. Now, as would be expected, this particular comment would probably have more of an impact on me if what I was expressing was the opposite...as in "If you relate to a movie character...find out what that movie character's type is... because their type will be your type"...but that's not what I'm saying. And while I can certainly appreciate your input...I'm left with nothing that accounts for your critical tone. Like I just said...I think something may have irritated you on some level and this is the sole reason you are countering me...and in this way it feels unnecessary to restate this all for the sake of "understanding" but let's have at it...

My statements here are 100% Clementine specific. They begin and end with Clementine. There's absolutely no need to bring up Amelie...or any other character that is complex, multi-faceted and/or mute (which in my mind opens the door to far more subjective type interpretation and identification) because they don't apply here. There's absolutely no need to bring up other characters that are generally understood to be e7 either. Why? Because most characters on the "silver screen"...even the "commonly understood as e7" ones...are actually characters and not caricatures… which allows for doubt and again, a good deal of subjective interpretation.

Now here's the crazy thing I'm doing... I'm taking the 2-dimensional, personification of the general e7 description known as the character 'Clementine'...and using her to make what was for me an amusing statement on the fact that so many e7s mistype as e4s (<-the fact you're challenging this is made more confusing when I consider how I've heard you allude to this same phenomenon many times. I thought you of all members would be in agreement.) So in an effort to summarize: I believe ExFPs can be 4w3s. I also believe ExFPs can identify with the character of Clementine and still be 4w3s. Now here's where things start to fall apart for me... Once an individual insists that the character of Clementine is an e4...right then and there I will have lost a substantial amount of faith in that individual's grasp of enneagram theory. Based solely on the nature of Clementine...I now no longer trust the person's skillz outright. But if in addition to the previous claim that same individual states that they are an ENFP 4w3...and proceeds to use as their primary evidence their significant identification with the character for why she's obviously enneagram 4... well, now everything changes as the odds of who's "right and wrong" ("understanding and not understanding enneagram theory") have shifted to the other side.

Enneagram is not a science...but keeping track of probability...as new variables are introduced...is. ^When I put together everything I know about Clementine and common ENFP e7 mistypes...I believe the odds are on the side of "this individual is a mistyped e7."

 

[brainheart]

I relate more to Joel than Clementine, for what it's worth. Not enough to say oh he's totally me, but more than I do to Clementine.

My God [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION], [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] and [MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION], you guys write some long ass posts.

 

[Animal]

My God [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION], [MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] and [MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION], you guys write some long ass posts.

Says the Sp-dom

Oh wait.. OA is an sp-dom.

Hm.

I have no excuse.

 

[brainheart]

Yupyup, me too (think I said that in the last post)

Did you? I might as well be honest; I have a hard time reading your entire posts- particularly if they aren't directed at me. As I said, they is long. (Went back and found it... Ah yes, so you did )

What e-type would you give him?

Well I'm pretty sure Charlie Kaufman (screenplay writer) is a 4w5. I could see Joel being one as well. I think 4 and 7 is a common movie (as well as real life) pairing. And then the whole basic premise of the film: she impulsively erases her memories of him because they are too painful; he's traumatized by the idea of them going away, because what is a four without the memory of treasured loves lost?

 

[Animal]

Did you? I might as well be honest; I have a hard time reading your entire posts- particularly if they aren't directed at me. As I said, they is long. (Went back and found it... Ah yes, so you did )

Haha can't blame you. Also I'm busy during the day, and often write rambly posts late at night when I'm exhausted. I should probably not do that, so my posts are actually legible.

Well I'm pretty sure Charlie Kaufman (screenplay writer) is a 4w5. I could see Joel being one as well. I think 4 and 7 is a common movie (as well as real life) pairing. And then the whole basic premise of the film: she impulsively erases her memories of him because they are too painful; he's traumatized by the idea of them going away, because what is a four without the memory of treasured loves lost?

Yeah. I was thinking 4 as well. The idea of losing the memories is traumatizing.

It's funny because, before that movie came out, I had written in my diary a lot about this guy who I wished I could forget, but then who and what would I be? And I pontificated a lot about - if I had the chance to forget him entirely, "unmeet him" - would I take it? It was a conundrum because I couldn't get over him. When that movie came out my feelings were still the same- that "peace of mind" is not worth the loss of the memories. I'd rather be miserable about my memories, than let go of them. In many ways, my imagination and memories are more real to me than reality, as in "here and now."

 

[brainheart]

As far as Kurt goes, [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION], I have a hard time believing sx/sp because of what he says in this interview, at 1:40- especially if he's a four:

I think it's unusual for a sx dom to refer to their romantic partner as a 'best friend'. I could actually see him being a so/sx 4w5, for more reasons than this- however, I think so/sx types can often think of their love interest as their best friend. Yes, they are more, but it's a necessary part of the picture. Also, his swings between limelight and total isolation in his home seems like social four.


[MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION], thanks for being cool about my comment.

Yes. I can at times want to get rid of the pain of past love trauma, but then when it starts to fade I relive it in my head because I don't really want to lose it. It's part of my identity, and it's part of my inspiration when it comes to creating. And I'd say that's the whole premise of the movie.

 

[Animal]

[MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION], thanks for being cool about my comment.

Oh I am always "cool" about comments about myself that I perceive as true. It's when I feel I'm "misunderstood" or have failed to communicate correctly, that the rants spill forth. I know I'm long-winded. I hate it about myself. But I am aware of it. And I actually appreciate the honest reminder. It keeps me focused on improving if that makes sense.

Yes. I can at times want to get rid of the pain of past love trauma, but then when it starts to fade I relive it in my head because I don't really want to lose it. It's part of my identity, and it's part of my inspiration when it comes to creating. And I'd say that's the whole premise of the movie.

Yes. Exactly. It was funny to me becuase I'd had that very debate with myself in my own diary.

Clementine erasing her memories on a whim is very 7ish…. I don't know how anyone can type her as core 4. So much of her character for better or worse is just SOOOO quintessential 7.

 

[Lexicon]

I keep reading this thread as, "Seven year-olds fear getting old."

And then I think.. stupid children, fuck you.

 

[HongDou]

I keep reading this thread as, "Seven year-olds fear getting old."

And then I think.. stupid children, fuck you.

Still applies to E7s.

 

[Starry]

As far as Kurt goes, [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION], I have a hard time believing sx/sp because of what he says in this interview, at 1:40- especially if he's a four:

I think it's unusual for a sx dom to refer to their romantic partner as a 'best friend'. I could actually see him being a so/sx 4w5, for more reasons than this- however, I think so/sx types can often think of their love interest as their best friend. Yes, they are more, but it's a necessary part of the picture. Also, his swings between limelight and total isolation in his home seems like social four.

Oh wow brainheart really? Okay, let me back-up a step...
When I slap the sx/sp label down on Cobain...that doesn't originate from me. All over the internet you will find personality related debates going on in his name. The primary debate is between 4w5 and 5w4...but some of these debates are with regards to his MBTI as well. IOW, and to a lesser extent, some people battle it out between INFP, ISFP...and even INTP.

The only thing that people appear to agree on is sx/sp for him. From the professional enneagram sites to the informal/obscure...you will see sx/sp. And after consideration I absolutely agree.

It's funny because I watched the video prior to reading what you wrote directly below... and the whole time I was thinking "uh huh, uh huh...okay...this all sounds sx/sp to me so wait what...?" haha.

The fact he was saying that he and Courtney (another sx dom)...wanted to be with each other all the time...that's basically the cornerstone of sexual dominance. You are merged and you do not wish to unmerge. I think this is why...in part... I prefer sx doms as romantic partners because I'm not left wanting...and this part of me is not misunderstood. The fact he called Courtney his best friend is total sx/sp. The way I see it is...I ain't becoming emotionally, spiritually, physically, mentally attached...at the "psycho" levels of attachment I attach at haha...if the person isn't first and foremost my best friend (that I have sex with.) I very much relate to what he said and continue to see him as a sx/sp.