[Traditional Enneagram] self development for 5's

[Coriolis]

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. *

I never claimed that the Higher Power was God, recall that I only stated that some call it God. It's a matter of personal preference.

So, does simple believing make it so, or is there something more specific or deliberate we must do so this higher power can help us overcome our problem (sort of like the alcoholic throws out all his booze, or the drug addict stops hanging around with his old crowd)?

 

[Mal12345]

So, does simple believing make it so, or is there something more specific or deliberate we must do so this higher power can help us overcome our problem (sort of like the alcoholic throws out all his booze, or the drug addict stops hanging around with his old crowd)?

I don't think the latter is always necessary, from what I've seen. If a meth addict wants to go off the drug without having a spiritual change of heart, then it is absolutely necessary to avoid those druggie friends. Since my mechanic told me the whole story of how he kicked meth addiction, I have to recommend his method. (I think he still does pot, but that's not so destructive.) But as he is an ISTP, perhaps it was a matter of personality type that let him get away with not attending NA. All he really did was make the commitment to change, then move hundreds of miles away from his old druggie friends to his brother's house, where he crashed - literally - for a few months. At first he was so weak with meth dependency that he was only capable of crawling to the bathroom.

A severe alcoholic requires hospitalization to dry out or else alcohol withdrawal will cause death.

So it would be simplistic to an extreme to say that a spiritual awakening is all that it takes, but it helps.

 

[Bilateral Entry]

Pretty sure I'm a 5. Any materials or suggestions of how I can find info on how to use this typing for personal growth?

 

[estorm]

There are a few tid bits in this thread. I also notice that the Enneagram Institute has a section on personal growth [https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-5/#personalgrowth] for 5's.

If you mean more generally how does one use the Enneagram for personal growth, then I'd point you to The Wisdom of the Enneagram (book) by Riso and Hudson. They added "levels of health" which shows each type in healthy, average, and unhealthy modes. They also discuss the blind spots and warming sugnals, and ways to avoid them.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Beating e5 tendencies basically comes down to realizing that you need to get yourself out of your comfort zone.



1. When you see that a person is wrong and that its picture of the world will surely lead into disaster you should challange them directly in the case that this is in your area of expertise.

2. When something goes wrong don't automatically think how you will fix this, instead say out loud "Which smartass placed pieces togather in a way that everthing failed".

3. Use chats/skype or real life talk and learn how to communicate quickly.

4. You are not prefectly ok with sharing too much information about yourself ? The truth is that everyone has its limit. Therefore it is best that you make a list of what you are comfortable sharing and what will be left out for only you and perhaps selected few.

5. Real 5s have the desire to learn and therefore you can use this skill to learn something about more down to Earth topics. What will allow you to do small talk when necerssary. Yeah, small talk can be stupid thing but it really helps with that feeling of detachment.

6. Get you body used to physical activity. (if you didn't already)

7. Say what is on your mind.

8. Buy yourself little things when you trully desire them (and if they are not bad for you). Don't try to reationalize too much.

9. Learn how to play board games. The games will distract your logic and therefore it will maybe be easier to focus on people. (learn how to negotiate)

10. Reduce your internet time if possible.

 

[draon9]

In reading one of the other threads here, I ran across the following link with information about 5's:

The Distinctions of Type 5

This paragraph especially stood out:



I was taken aback by how familiar this sounds. Yes, I can see how this falls under the heading of unhealthy behavior, which suggests that it should be addressed somehow, but how? My knowledge of enneagram is limited. While I am fairly confident in my type designation (5w6 sp), I am at a loss when it comes to using the enneagram system for actual self-improvement. I've read about wings, tritypes, directions of integration, etc. but always end up wondering: now what do I actually DO?

Have any other 5's been able to use enneagram to effect meaningful change in yourself? How did you do it? Comments from other types are welcome, too.

Have you ever watch an anime parasyte, migi is an example of a confident 5

 

[EJCC]

Haven't read the entire thread, but I suspect finding ways to connect more directly with your own emotions would be useful. This is something I've been working on as well, so it's fresh on my mind. "Letting go" of your inner monologue -- something that's been mentioned numerous times in this thread already -- is a great suggestion. Learning to notice when you detach, so you can stop detaching. Learning that it's okay to actually feel things.

At a therapy session a while back, my therapist pointed out to me that I had spent 45+ minutes talking about what was going on in my life, without once mentioning how those things made me feel. That's a small example of the activity that 5s, as well as many other folks, regardless of type, should avoid. You can get away with it in the moment because oftentimes your feelings are implied -- either as the most obvious reaction to the event, or through the facial expressions you make as you tell the story -- but that isn't enough in the long run.

 

[Coriolis]

Haven't read the entire thread, but I suspect finding ways to connect more directly with your own emotions would be useful. This is something I've been working on as well, so it's fresh on my mind. "Letting go" of your inner monologue -- something that's been mentioned numerous times in this thread already -- is a great suggestion. Learning to notice when you detach, so you can stop detaching. Learning that it's okay to actually feel things.

At a therapy session a while back, my therapist pointed out to me that I had spent 45+ minutes talking about what was going on in my life, without once mentioning how those things made me feel. That's a small example of the activity that 5s, as well as many other folks, regardless of type, should avoid. You can get away with it in the moment because oftentimes your feelings are implied -- either as the most obvious reaction to the event, or through the facial expressions you make as you tell the story -- but that isn't enough in the long run.

What are you saying we should avoid - talking about what is going on in our life, or doing so without mentioning how we feel about it? I usually don't even do the first. As for noticing when I detach, sometimes it seems as if that is the default condition, and I instead notice when I make the effort to attach/connect.

 

[EJCC]

What are you saying we should avoid - talking about what is going on in our life, or doing so without mentioning how we feel about it? I usually don't even do the first. As for noticing when I detach, sometimes it seems as if that is the default condition, and I instead notice when I make the effort to attach/connect.

Well when you put it this way, I'd suggest starting by actually talking to people about your life, and then easing into telling them how you feel about it. But given the choice between updating folks with feelings or without feelings, and those folks are people you're friends with, then with feelings would definitely be preferred.

My dad is a 5w6 sp/so (or so/sp), and he's made a concerted effort over the past 5-10 years to talk to me and my mom about his life. Sometimes he needs to be reminded of it -- he's still not always comfortable volunteering that information. But even so, he gets in a bad mood if he doesn't do it enough. So there's motivation there.

 

[Coriolis]

Well when you put it this way, I'd suggest starting by actually talking to people about your life, and then easing into telling them how you feel about it. But given the choice between updating folks with feelings or without feelings, and those folks are people you're friends with, then with feelings would definitely be preferred.

Why is that preferred? Wouldn't it depend on what your friends are like? I guess I have assumed people really close to me (e.g. my SO, or earlier, my parents) knew what was going on in my life just through practical day-to-day interactions. With other people, I don't see the point of simply launching into an account of my life. I will bring up specific incidents if it is relevant to the discussion. And yes, when I do this it doesn't occur to me to say how I felt about it, except perhaps to render value judgments when appropriate (e.g. what I thought of a movie I had seen).

My dad is a 5w6 sp/so (or so/sp), and he's made a concerted effort over the past 5-10 years to talk to me and my mom about his life. Sometimes he needs to be reminded of it -- he's still not always comfortable volunteering that information. But even so, he gets in a bad mood if he doesn't do it enough. So there's motivation there.

Do you have any idea why this is the case, or why/how talking about his life helps to alleviate his bad moods? Usually I get into a bad mood when I can't see the way to solve a problem or complete some task the way I want. I have to make headway on a solution to improve my mood.

 

[EJCC]

Why is that preferred? Wouldn't it depend on what your friends are like? I guess I have assumed people really close to me (e.g. my SO, or earlier, my parents) knew what was going on in my life just through practical day-to-day interactions. With other people, I don't see the point of simply launching into an account of my life. I will bring up specific incidents if it is relevant to the discussion. And yes, when I do this it doesn't occur to me to say how I felt about it, except perhaps to render value judgments when appropriate (e.g. what I thought of a movie I had seen).

This isn't necessarily true. Your SO isn't going to know what you've been doing at work -- or how you feel about it -- unless you tell him. Same with any other individuals, re: things that you're involved in and they aren't.

It's preferred because it's a way for others to be connected with you, whereas what I'm hearing from you -- in this thread and others -- is that you prefer connection that is non-mutual. Where others share with you, and you do not share in return.

Does that ever make you feel isolated? I ask because 1) I have the same tendency and it frequently makes me feel isolated, and 2) your OP suggests that it isolates you as well.

Do you have any idea why this is the case, or why/how talking about his life helps to alleviate his bad moods? Usually I get into a bad mood when I can't see the way to solve a problem or complete some task the way I want. I have to make headway on a solution to improve my mood.

When I say "bad mood", I don't mean "cranky" so much as I mean the below, from your OP:

The more they cut themselves off, however, the more they struggle with feelings of emptiness, loneliness and compulsive need.

It's natural to feel like you aren't connected with anyone, when you aren't taking any of the necessary steps to communicate with people, on a deeper level. That includes sharing your feelings. In the example I gave, I'm not saying you should talk about your day for the sake of talking about your day, as much as you should talk about your day so that others know how you feel about what went on in your day. What was exciting? What was a letdown? Was it more of the same? When people are invested in the things that you are invested in, BECAUSE you are invested in them, that reduces your isolation.

 

[Coriolis]

This isn't necessarily true. Your SO isn't going to know what you've been doing at work -- or how you feel about it -- unless you tell him. Same with any other individuals, re: things that you're involved in and they aren't.

You have a point here. I have always mentioned things of a logistical nature, such as an upcoming business trip, or need to work late or swap cars for some reason, but there is much more to the workday than that, plus the activities each of us does without the other.

It's preferred because it's a way for others to be connected with you, whereas what I'm hearing from you -- in this thread and others -- is that you prefer connection that is non-mutual. Where others share with you, and you do not share in return.

Does that ever make you feel isolated? I ask because 1) I have the same tendency and it frequently makes me feel isolated, and 2) your OP suggests that it isolates you as well.

It's not that I want connection that is not mutual. It's more that, if someone I know wants to use me as a sounding board or just an ear to listen, I don't mind because I see it as a way to help.* I don't, however, find it necessary to share my life events or feelings with them, because I don't have the same need. It also seems like it would be a distraction to start talking about myself, when they are focused on issues they want to get off their chest.

That being said, I suspect overall I have a much lower need for connection than average. I suppose in some sense it is isolating, but I don't find that necessarily negative. I have many professional contacts and connect with them regularly in a way that is entirely mutual and positive. You have probably run across some of my comments about looking for a better job. The only regret I will have about moving on is leaving my current colleagues. These interactions, however, don't involve much exchange of broader personal life experiences or emotions. There are very few people (2-3?) with whom I am willing to share such information.

It's natural to feel like you aren't connected with anyone, when you aren't taking any of the necessary steps to communicate with people, on a deeper level. That includes sharing your feelings. In the example I gave, I'm not saying you should talk about your day for the sake of talking about your day, as much as you should talk about your day so that others know how you feel about what went on in your day. What was exciting? What was a letdown? Was it more of the same? When people are invested in the things that you are invested in, BECAUSE you are invested in them, that reduces your isolation.

Are you suggesting that "communication on a deeper level" requires sharing of everyday experiences and how they make us feel? To me, that is little better than smalltalk. I feel connection from discussing things that really are deep - thought-provoking, challenging, novel, something I can learn from. Most of the people I spend time with ARE invested in the same things as me, not because of me but rather because we all feel they are important. In fact, it is the shared interest and investment that brought us together in the first place. Yes, they are primarily professional and volunteer situations, but I wouldn't dismiss the level of connection possible.

Bottom line: I'm not sure what is to be gained by having more of the kind of interaction you describe.


*Edit: I don't ask or expect others to share with me like this. That would be nosy/intrusive on my part. I am simply willing to listen or offer advice if they want it.

 

[great_bay]

Type 5 can give into their vice which is greed. They're greedy with their time. They're selfish. They don't spend time with people. It appears type 5s can avoid being greedy and spent time with others.

 

[EJCC]

It's not that I want connection that is not mutual. It's more that, if someone I know wants to use me as a sounding board or just an ear to listen, I don't mind because I see it as a way to help.* I don't, however, find it necessary to share my life events or feelings with them, because I don't have the same need. It also seems like it would be a distraction to start talking about myself, when they are focused on issues they want to get off their chest.

That being said, I suspect overall I have a much lower need for connection than average. I suppose in some sense it is isolating, but I don't find that necessarily negative. I have many professional contacts and connect with them regularly in a way that is entirely mutual and positive. You have probably run across some of my comments about looking for a better job. The only regret I will have about moving on is leaving my current colleagues. These interactions, however, don't involve much exchange of broader personal life experiences or emotions. There are very few people (2-3?) with whom I am willing to share such information.

Blunt follow-up question: Why did you make this thread, then, if you don't see anything that needs to change, and you're happy with your current level of connection?

Are you suggesting that "communication on a deeper level" requires sharing of everyday experiences and how they make us feel? To me, that is little better than smalltalk. I feel connection from discussing things that really are deep - thought-provoking, challenging, novel, something I can learn from. Most of the people I spend time with ARE invested in the same things as me, not because of me but rather because we all feel they are important. In fact, it is the shared interest and investment that brought us together in the first place. Yes, they are primarily professional and volunteer situations, but I wouldn't dismiss the level of connection possible.

Bottom line: I'm not sure what is to be gained by having more of the kind of interaction you describe.

Huh. Looks like I was projecting a bit, with the examples I gave.

Correction and follow-up: The core of what I was getting at was, people should have someone to talk to about the things that occupy their mind the most from day to day -- for better or worse. In my case, the things that are of most concern from day to day typically have to do with work, or with friends, or with other activities that I do. As an ESTJ, the things that stress me out usually relate to my plans, especially when those plans aren't going the way that I wanted them to. But in your case, as an INTJ, the things that stress you out, and that occupy your mind the most, are going to be different.

 

[Coriolis]

Blunt follow-up question: Why did you make this thread, then, if you don't see anything that needs to change, and you're happy with your current level of connection?

A valid question, in fact one I was expecting. Now, an analogy. I have never had a smart phone. I don't feel the need for one. Everything other people do with theirs, I have other ways of doing. I have serious concerns about smart phone security, and don't feel I have the knowledge to protect my privacy while using one. Still, many people tell me that I should get one. That I would really enjoy it if I had it, and find lots of new ways to use it to help me do things. They tell me I don't know what I'm missing. This is obviously true.

The situation with personal connections is similar. I don't feel like anything is wrong, or like there is some great unmet need in my life that I simply must address. As I have explained, I get done what I need and want to do, and a great deal of it. But then I read articles like the one I quoted in the OP, and wonder what I have been missing. Would I enjoy more connections if I put out the effort to make them? Would they help me to get even more done, or add new enjoyment to my life? Would it be worth the effort, and the risk? Rather than just write off this perspective, I am trying to understand it better, to see whether it is something I should change, not because I need to do, but because it will improve my life somehow.

Correction and follow-up: The core of what I was getting at was, people should have someone to talk to about the things that occupy their mind the most from day to day -- for better or worse. In my case, the things that are of most concern from day to day typically have to do with work, or with friends, or with other activities that I do. As an ESTJ, the things that stress me out usually relate to my plans, especially when those plans aren't going the way that I wanted them to. But in your case, as an INTJ, the things that stress you out, and that occupy your mind the most, are going to be different.

Are you suggesting that you share with your friends mostly situations that stress you out, where you might want advice, or just need to vent? I do this with my SO mostly. As for the things that occupy my mind from day to day, I discuss technical and work-related content with my colleagues and a couple of friends. I discuss music mostly with the other musicians at church. I discuss my volunteer activities with other volunteers, and the people we work with. So, most things get discussed somewhere. Not sure if this is what you meant.

 

[Zen_alpha]

I used to be too serious, when someone ask me "how are you feeling?" I don't know how to answer. Many people told me that I'm a person with no emotion. I don't laugh, I rarely smile and I always look scary/angry for some reason. My only solution was to take life "less" seriously, and enjoy my time. Instead of planning for everything, I still do automatically in my mind, I try to be more spontaneous.

I still look scary/angry, I was born with this face, but I'm enjoying life more than before. Instead of feeling empty, I have feelings like "enjoying" doing my hobbies. Life is not supposed to be taken seriously as "all". It's better to try to lighten up. I'm still serious, but I choose to put each situation by itself. Serious time have it's own time and having fun have it's own time too.

I won't deny the fact that feeling of emptiness does come from time to time, but it's less than before. I still have "social life-related" problems, but I can somehow adapt to it lately.

I don't think anyone can help you, but yourself. I doubt even venting will help. Because, this will depend if the other person does actually understand what you are going through.

So, my best advice is to pick a hobby. Something that will let you have fun and affect you emotionally. For me it was anime, games and lately programming.
You are 5 and INTJ, I think you will enjoy programming, because it requires skills in problem-solving. Try to build complex software as way to have fun.

 

[Kendrix]

While I can't claim to have found any answers yet, there's one question/ idea I'd like to throw into the discussion: That what you do about a situation/problem depends on what your desired end result is (and how far it's feasible, of course. )

One thing I've always have had a slight problem with is the idea that there's one defined state of enlightenment or things to strive toward that should be desirable for everyone or objectively better, different from not understanding the necessity for compromise and maturation.
Some things can be "worth it", the quest is finding out which ones.

Obviously there's a necessary balance - you need to have some minimum rounded functionality also known as "having your shit together" because if you can't do crucial steps of the "getting stuff done" process, whatever skill you have at others will be completely useless and won't help you one bit - but on the other hand, you don't want to endlessly strain yourself to archeive an arbitraty common idea of "normal" or "desirable", working hard for results that no matter how much you apply yourself will look pathetic next to what others do without trying - and I don't mean that from a point of "then why bother" (giving up is even more useless), but more in a sense of picking your battles.

I mean it seems clear to me at this point that this "five pattern" thing is something that exists and likely sits at the root of some of my problems, as shameful as it seems I've recognized that this... "draw back and inject more analysis into feasome thing" knee-jerk reaction is something that's there, and that's been a humbling experience, to see a connection between what I'd consider the higher parts of myself and bare instinct like raw fear.
Then again, evolution gave us humans our brains for the same reasons it gave eagles their talons so it makes sense that there things would be connected.
But at the same time, and well-aware of my capacity to be wrong/or in denial here, I'm not sure I can buy this story/ want to follow this path of seeing rationality or curiosity as some uneeded crutch I need to throw away.
If anything, using rationality as a crutch seems to profane rationality, if not stop it from truly qualifying as such. Obviously if fear is involved, you get attached to certain potential results, and you want conclusions fast instead of well-thought out, it's a lens that distorts your process and stops productivity so it all becomes useless...
I know there's no accolades for "potential" genius, if you can't do shit then you can't do shit and you don't actually know if you hypothetically could, I'm well aware that I haven't accomplished anything worth a damn yet, and a model of reality that doesn't feature in impactful things like the feelings of yourself and others is not a good model at all.
Reality is out there and just because we can't be 100% certain about it/ free of subjective factors, or that it inherently isn't made in such a convenient way that be can have that, doesn't mean that 99% certainty is the same as none.
While I can't rule out that it's true, I'd hate to think that pursuing knowledge and enlightenment is purely because of fear.
Maybe it's just tempting to (mis)use the knowledge or analytic faculties to soothe yourself if you already have them.
Then again I'd be the first person to anowledge that desirability is no requisite of the truth and first of all I want to know what the truth is, what's comfortable to me doesn't matter, and I'm very far from being unaffected by what's comfortable for me, but it's something to strive towads.

That is, I see the need to get things out of the way that make me "not productive", and realize that can entail changing my ways or, doing things I don't like, but do I have to want a pecific set of things/goals for that? Not a rethorical question here, I genuinely don't know the answer yet.

I think that your genuine pursuits and low kneejerk reactions use the same faculties while having filters that blurr the difference is the greatest difficulty of it all. Where's the line between fact, legitimate opinion/interpretation, models that are useful for your situation but not universal, and self-serving bias. All four are different things.

 

[BeyondTheGrey]

I'm working on it. I started by removing all barriers emotionally. First, understand, then cultivate, then integrate.
You got to understand the core fear, your core fear. Helplessness, vulnerability etc, along with detachment as a coping mechanism.
Fortunately I'm working with my therapist on this.
I admit at times I just want to disappear as I feel they know too much, vulnerable emotionally.

 

[ARET45]

The point of integration, is important. It is important for 5s to become action oriented. The move to 8 means they become less obsessively mental and secretive.