Responses to nihilism

[Forever]

You’re getting back to objectivity vs subjectivity of right and wrong. Maybe it’s difficult to separate it. Is lack of knowledge a justification of making a wrong choice? Sometimes it can be, we act according to our conscience and knowledge in that particular moment. But choosing not to know is ignorance and I don’t think ignorance can be a justification.

Well maybe it's implicit for me, if everybody rationalizes their own reason of why they did something. They did what thought appropriate at the time (even if it was severe lack of context or anything really)

If that everyone thinks they are okay, technically there was no morality to begin with. I made my objective statement that there is no morality.

It’s not only about opportunities. It’s better to know, understand and to build one’s opinion on that understanding.

Yes, I realize what I said was a small answer. Although, I am not intending to imply I'm a fan of anarchy and just do what we want all day everyday.

I don’t think that matters to this thread whether moral system comes from religion. However I want to say that from what I saw the religion isn’t only based on fear, first foundation should be love. Though I’ve seen religious people acting wrong (in my opinion), but I’ve seen too a lot of strength and kindness coming from people who said they wouldn’t be able to proceed this way without the faith. It's funny how same factor can bring out the best or worst of us. Sorry for off top. If you want to discuss that you can write me Forever.

Btw I wanted to use multiquote, but I don't know how

It's okay. Religion was a side-comment. Although I do see religion as a primary benefactor for a large majority of people's beliefs about morality. I haven't studied enough meta-ethics but I know the three sides: Objective, Subjective, and Nihilistic Morality. I do not believe in subjective morality either because you then condemn yourself for things what you might think is wrong, when really even for yourself there is no right or wrong path to take.

Although I will cheat a little using morality's terms. Essentially good things are the way to go because not harming others pretty much opens the doors for all manner of possibilities, thus expanding the universe. Honestly I don't find it entirely sensical because I do want meaning in what I do. Oh and doing anything evil doesn't really bring much to the world. Just a lot of pain and trouble for yourself lol. People have gotten away with evil but it's not something we should focus on too much because the ones with the deepest consequences for you, those things cannot be hidden at least as time goes further and further on.

Tbh, it does feel off to say I'm on the lack of morality. But I haven't felt a compelling argument that describes an objective morality and subjective morality makes no sense to me really. Maybe I am proposing subjective morality this whole time? Lol. But then I don't agree with subjective morality because then the person who assigns rape and murder as "good" qualities is absolutely bonkers in my mind.

You do know multi-quote is for multiple members/posts right? :O

 

[tkae.]

The way I respond to nihilists really doesn't matter.

See what I did there?

 

[Kanra Jest]

The whole world is darkness.

 

[Reborn Relic]

Hedonism validates pleasure seeking and considers it legitimate, nihilism would not validate it and consider it as illegitimate a driver or motivator as any other.

You are presupposing an objective or natural order which includes individual pursuing seeking, possibly as ontological, though nihilism would not consider that so.

Hedonism mandates pleasure-seeking, and most schools of it actually have specific guides on how one should go about getting pleasure. Nihilism doesn't mandate it, and indeed does not mandate any course of action. But it would be ridiculous to suggest that this means that one can't act to do what is pleasurable ever because it is not mandated. Again, this assumes that nihilism is a set of requirements, which it isn't. It's the absence of requirements, save I guess the requirement not to put requirements on yourself.

And, since your philosophy has no major requirements for action, your actions won't be motivated by philosophy. Simple as that.

 

[erm]

If nihilism is the discovery or recognition that values and norms have no objective basis in fact then why does it remain a standard response to become or to do bad or wrong as opposed to becoming good or doing good?

If a decision, any decision is of no consequence what so ever, all outcomes/things being equal, and by that is meant equally meaningless, why does the default trajectory seem to be transgressive/wrong doing?

I honestly think this is just semantics. A lot of people take Nihilism to mean no value beyond pleasure and pain, and thus still act towards pleasure and away from pain. Others take it to mean that there's no value to an object outside of that object. Hedonism and Existentialism, respectively.

More substantially they use it as a term to dismiss various pressures imposed on them by society and their own psychology, which they will do selectively, and thus society and their own brains will condemn them on some level for this (hence the wrongdoing part).

You're right in that actual Nihilism dismisses all value, including pleasure, pain and one's own personal values and perspective. I think humans can acknowledge that as factual, true or not, but can't 'live' by such a belief since it provokes no action or lack there of, and thus all possible lifestyles live according to it equally already.

What tends to happen, if a person is trying to be rational and lives in a nihilistic universe, is they are seeking out value or think they already know what is valuable, discover that their universe has no possible value, and thus change their behavior away from that. That last step is completely arational, but I suppose that more forward-thinking big picture networks of the brain influences motivation the way it has evolved to regardless.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

 

[Thalassa]

No.

 

[Typh0n]

No.

Yes?

 

[ThaumaturgicTheorist]

Ack. I got off the nihilism train months ago and have little desire to get back on for a long-ass time. Several months is not long-ass enough.

OP: I think one part of it is a kind of contrarianism. You've 'realized that morality is bullshit', so why are you still behaving "morally"? You must not have accepted the truth. How can you claim that society's values are meaningless yet still follow them?

After my own little crisis nihilism seems a bit...empty. True, morals and values aren't objective things based in physical reality, they're mental constructs, with actually some degree of consistency across cultures on a really basic level. Emotivism makes sense - that they merely express preferences. Ultimately, though, I think there's some validity to moral labels and considerations, they refer to mental and emotional things. And even if they ultimately spring from the unconscious, from weird brain processings we can't completely identify, they still reflect and inspire actual consequences and desires.

As I outlined in my other post, the issue is that people have been taught that everyone is ultimately selfish in the most destructive sense, rather than a mutual selfishness in which multiple parties can benefit.

This is evidenced in the age of individuality in which we now live. We are constantly marketed to under the notion of "do it your way" which (between the spaces) is really just "to the exclusion of others".

It seems that when mot people hear "People are inherently selfish", there's this jump that translates it as "People are inherently evil psychopaths who will kill, harm, or otherwise throw you nder the metaphorical bus to get what they want. Love doesn't exist and everyone's out to get you." When really it just means "People are predominantly concerned with their own wellbeing and ego. Don't harm these things and they won't bother you."

 

[Thalassa]

Yes?

Just say no to nihilism, kids.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

OP: I think one part of it is a kind of contrarianism. You've 'realized that morality is bullshit', so why are you still behaving "morally"? You must not have accepted the truth. How can you claim that society's values are meaningless yet still follow them?

Oh geez. One of my pet peeves is when someone says "morality is bullshit," and then complains about being screwed over. If "morality is bullshit", it logically follows that it shouldn't matter to you. On what basis can someone possibly claim to have been wronged when all standards for right are bullshit? If you believe you've been screwed over, i.e., wronged, this implies that on some level, you think that morality is not bullshit.

 

[Typh0n]

Just say no to nihilism, kids.

Oh ok, wasn't sure what you meant.

 

[Thalassa]

Oh geez. One of my pet peeves is when someone says "morality is bullshit," and then complains about being screwed over. If "morality is bullshit", it logically follows that it shouldn't matter to you. On what basis can someone possibly claim to have been wronged when all standards for right are bullshit? If you believe you've been screwed over, i.e., wronged, this implies that on some level, you think that morality is not bullshit.

It reminds me of Mr. March in American Horror Story Hotel, saying the only real morality is personal revenge. That's usually considered sociopathic or animalistic thinking, and at best it points to something like stunted tert or inferior Fi.

Anyway, with no ethics there is chaos, values exist to bring productive order to the world and a person who claims there's no right and wrong probably realistically would really hate having to live in a world of utter chaos where they had no rights. It's always annoyed me too that people who spout this stuff are often physically weak or lack social charisma, so they'd actually be the first people destroyed by the law of the jungle - their musings tend in my observation to be privileged thinking stemming from morality that protects their money or their parents money. Some of those people are actually really detached from reality in the sense of not comprehending the finite nature of earth and its resources.

 

[Mole]

It seems that when mot people hear "People are inherently selfish", there's this jump that translates it as "People are inherently evil psychopaths who will kill, harm, or otherwise throw you nder the metaphorical bus to get what they want. Love doesn't exist and everyone's out to get you." When really it just means "People are predominantly concerned with their own wellbeing and ego. Don't harm these things and they won't bother you."

The problem is that every moon has its dark side, so the best we can do is discern where is the light and where is the dark side.

Discernment requires reflection, it requires due diligence, it requires emotional restraint, and with these lacking it is tempting to put the light and the dark side into one basket. But with discernment we can start to breathe easy, to see where we are going, and to make appropriate friends.

 

[soremfinger]

Nihilism is just another relativistic thought. One among many. The world is relative. Fact. Because of that it is chaotic by nature. If we're to toe its line chaos will compound. Each of us will have our own defined morality, values, logic etc. We'll be more different, varied and divided then it already is. Consequently, each relative individual will clash in their quest for pleasure. As a result we can never have peace or progress. If we are to realize that then we need an absolute axiom, a unanimity, an agreement so we can co-exist despite our differences. The question isn't about artificial construct or natural existence or the subjectivity or objectivity. It's about continuity of life.

 

[Mole]

The question isn't about artificial construct or natural existence or the subjectivity or objectivity. It's about continuity of life.

Over almost four thousand million years natural selection had given us our survival instinct, then added our instinct to reproduce, and added to this is the fact we are meaning creating animals, so we add meaning to our survival and reproducing instincts.

So we share our survival and reproducing instincts with all the other animals over four thousand million years, but we add the delight of meaning to survival and reproducing.

So the difference between us and the other animals is our delight in existence.

 

[Avocado]

Nihilism, at least practically speaking, never lasts for long. In my case, I've eventually decided on Epicureanism. Good and evil have no meaning, and there is no objective reason to follow any norm. That said, pleasure is desireable and pain is undesireable. Thus, it is wise to maximize your personal pleasure and minimze your pain. According to Epicurus, it is wise to be generous so that others may be generous in turn, and also wise to moderate your pleasures today so that they do not result in pain tomorrow. I add in the Buddhist concepts of meditation and detatchment to further acheive this goal, since one cannot truly be free from dissatisfaction in life unless you release yourself from attachment to outcomes in life. Due to my mental and physical disabilities, I am not valued as a worker, though I can usually find enough odd jobs to keep a meager income, and so long as I live within my means, such as not eating everyday, I can find peace between the extremes of overindulgence and ascetism, though my circumstances require I be closer to ascetism. I am doing fairly well as a student, and as I got 8 free semesters, I will only go into a little debt since I only changed my major once. I will not particularly like teaching, as it will require some things I dislike, but hopefully I will be mentally and physically capable of the work and it will elevate me financially and provide job security, as well as a retirement down the road. My disabilities complicate my life a bit, but I can make it along. I will gain great pleasure from being able to eat regularly again, as opposed to just having scraps and water, so, yes. I have gone on a bit of a tangent and I apologize, but by practicing contentment and meditation, life can be much more comfortable than current circumstances permit.

 

[á´…eparted]

Been trying to think of a way to collect my thoughts on this. In short I am rather nihilistic on an internal level, but externally not so much. I acknowledge things as they are, but to fully engage them renders life without meaning. So I (or we if you suscribe to it) create meaning.

This explains it quite well:

 

[Pionart]

There is only one path to perfection, and infinite ways to stray from it.

In actuality, Nihilism is the path to perfection.