Rap music and white people

[Coriolis]

Well it was a few years ago but there was an african-american girl on this forum I was on, and she started complaining how more white people were listening to rap music, and how it'd lead to them thinking it was "okay to use the N word" and how after all the things our race had done to her race she didn't want white people "claiming" the music. And it led to a very heated debate and I wasn't sure how I should...really feel about it empathetically I guess? Another biracial (she is half-black) friend I still have today, she said she felt this person was being pretty irrational and was out of line about it. But I guess I am curious how a bigger picture feels about the issue.

Good grief. I never know what to make of this sort of thing. Some people criticize enjoying and, heaven forbid, personally partaking of something from other cultures as "cultural appropriation". Where is the line between appropriation, which presumably is disrespectful and bad, and appreciation, which I would hope is good and allows us to, well, appreciate the diversity of the world around us? I for one would get very bored if everyone was like me, did the same things, etc. I like hearing and seeing things that are outside my own lived experience. If I enjoy them, I want to keep listening/watching, and perhaps even participate myself. I find it hard to understand how people can be offended by that.

Reminds me of the time I was having dinner in a restaurant with some grad school friends, to celebrate one of them graduating. We were all wearing sarees, just for fun (one of the friends is Indian, and shared hers with us). When I walked through the lobby to go to the rest room there was an Indian family on their way in who started giving me funny looks, as if white women shouldn't be wearing the things. Obviously my Indian friend was not of the same mindset.

 

[Pessimistic Hippie]

How true!

Yeah I'm sorry lmao I didn't know if you were expecting a legitimate answer to that question. I've never even heard about that before.

 

[Jaguar]

As I mentioned to Ceecee...

A few years ago I was a member of a forum where this african-american girl started going off on a rant about how she hated seeing white people getting so into rap music now. And that they would think it was fine to use the "n" word because the rappers use it and all that jazz. Or how they'd claim it as their own and take over it. And it became a heated debate. So I wanted to basically get a perspective if like, any other people of color had an issue with this sort of thing as well. If that makes sense.

The next time some racist asshole gives you shit, demand they tell you how and where rap began in the late 70's. If they don't know, tell them to stfu. My god. Nothing was locked into stone back then, or "owned" by anyone. It was the wild, wild west and musical innovation was everywhere. Really, it all came out of the dance clubs. And how it got going was DJs spinning records and adding beats along with the sampling of other songs. Sampling, is using a portion of someone else's song—usually the melody—and in this context, adding rap lyrics to it.

I find it laughable that any black would not know this considering how much white music is sampled while blacks add the rap lyrics. Off the top of my head I hear The Police's Every Breath You Take with Puff Daddy rapping to their melody.

Is someone going to actually claim that's a black rap or hiphop song? How could they? The original song was written by Sting from The Police.

That's Puffy, who merely took the Police's great song and really fucked it up. But then my issue isn't black-white, I frown upon sampling which is done ad nauseam. At least Debbie Harry rapped in her own song in the 70's and Eminem raps in his own songs. My point is, they're original songs with rap vocals and not created using the the melody of an established song.

And to circle back to the person who was giving you shit online, I can only assume she's 12 years old. And ignorant. "Whites getting into rap music now" makes no sense. It started decades ago. What's next - someone thinking the automobile is a recent innovation?

Good grief.

 

[Pessimistic Hippie]

Also I just thought about something [MENTION=33903]Red Memories[/MENTION]. I can't speak for anyone else and I don't want to, but it seems like an elephant in the room/thread.

So personally the reason why whites using the N word and/or the hard r is offensive to me, and why them liking rap isn't, is because for me rap is just a form of poetry that could have very well been formed by ANY race in an alternate universe or whatever. Whereas the N word IS race-specific, and isn't in all actuality a compliment (in my opinion.) When a black person calls another black person that, even in polite conversation, to me it feels like that's kind of a bond, like "Yeah this is slang but our ancestors shared in the history of it." It's not something we ASKED to ever be the case. We tried to turn it into something positive for a reason. I hope I'm making sense.

That's why when I hear a white person saying it, it's very off to me. I know they're not some closet racist or anything like that. I just think they're trying to act like they know about something that they don't and trying to force their way in by just up and deciding they're gonna go ahead and do it anyway. And in my original post I simply said that they shouldn't assume that that's okay without some form of permission because it's disrespectful otherwise.

 

[Stigmata]

The next time some racist asshole gives you shit, demand they tell you how and where rap began in the late 70's. If they don't know, tell them to stfu. My god. Nothing was locked into stone back then, or "owned" by anyone. It was the wild, wild west and musical innovation was everywhere. Really, it all came out of the dance clubs. And how it got going was DJs spinning records and adding beats along with the sampling of other songs. Sampling, is using a portion of someone else's song—usually the melody—and in this context, adding rap lyrics to it.

I find it laughable that any black would not know this considering how much white music is sampled while blacks add the rap lyrics. Off the top of my head I hear The Police's Every Breath You Take with Puff Daddy rapping to their melody.

Is someone going to actually claim that's a black rap or hiphop song? How could they? The original song was written by Sting from The Police.

That's Puffy, who merely took the Police's great song and really fucked it up. But then my issue isn't black-white, I frown upon sampling which is done ad nauseam. At least Debbie Harry rapped in her own song in the 70's and Eminem raps in his own songs. My point is, they're original songs with rap vocals and not created using the the melody of an established song.

And to circle back to the person who was giving you shit online, I can only assume she's 12 years old. And ignorant. "Whites getting into rap music now" makes no sense. It started decades ago. What's next - someone thinking the automobile is a recent innovation?

Good grief.

I officially nominate Jaguar as the forum's resident hip hop historian.

 

[FemMecha]

I can see some cultural appropriation issues in the hyper-commercialization of rap music. It started as one of the most authentic styles with people telling the truth about their lives. There is something that bothers me about some of the hypercommercialized rap music in which there are white, ultra-blonde, barbie type people that have been reveling in privilege in all of its forms that take over rap because they want to dominate "coolness" as well. There is a long history of white privilege taking over music that has its roots in Black cultures. I would say there is authentic rap and then there is derivative rap.

What I understand of cultural appropriate is that it is not so much a problem to appreciate the art created by people who have a cultural context for it, but to take it over, dismiss the deeper meaning and expression of it, disregard the original creators and culture and take it over in a washed down version and monetize it, then you have cultural appropriation. One of the worst examples I saw was a FB page that sold Native American headdresses modeled by white women in bikinis. Complete disregard for the actual meaning and context for the artifacts. Another issue is when white people take over the "De la Muerte" celebrations by organizing and holding events while excluding Hispanic people from control of the event. This 'taking over', redefining, and monetizing what holds deeper meaning for another culture is the problem.

I see ways that does happen with rap as well. I think this is more about genuine culture than strictly racial divides because if a white person grew up in Mexico and celebrated De la Muerte from the time they were a child, that is different than a Presbyterian suburban white person who is charmed by it and takes it over, doesn't even include any Hispanic people, and is content to remain without a deeper understanding. Rap is more socially complex now because so many people of all racial backgrounds have been embracing it for a long time, but I think there are some industry issues and so forth. I can see it is most important for the culturally authentic rap artist to define the genre and address cultural appropriation issue. I mostly just have an impression that it does happen.

 

[Jaguar]

I officially nominate Jaguar as the forum's resident hip hop historian.

Thanks for the red herring. For some nut to think rap is something "whites are suddenly getting into" when rap was created by both blacks and whites decades ago is idiotic.



Oh, I forgot: Sieg Heil.

Inside joke.

 

[FemMecha]

At the earliest stages of Rock'n'roll there was a significant issue with the music industry giving privilege to white performers over black performers. Because the industry has that history, I can see some concerns about rap, but I do see the whole scene is more integrated. Someone like Eminem grew up in the inner city and experienced the authentic roots of rap as a linguistically based social competition where people expressed their personal empowerment through the cleverness of the rhyme and the one-upping of their opponents. I can see the origins of rap being very much about empowerment that is born of the internal human spirit regardless of circumstance. In that way, I see the ultra-privileged performers, and yes, particularly white wealthy performers, delivering something that misses that deeper context. Even the display of bling and excess is a sort of FU to inner city poverty, showing it no longer has power. People who start at the top and provide a decorative expression of rap don't convey that same thing. I'm curious to hear other input.

 

[Jaguar]

I couldn't stand rap, still can't. But Em was different. I've never heard anything like him. He rhymed words that weren't even supposed to rhyme and how he delivers it is like a gatling gun.

 

[Mole]

At the earliest stages of Rock'n'roll there was a significant issue with the music industry giving privilege to white performers over black performers. Because the industry has that history, I can see some concerns about rap, but I do see the whole scene is more integrated. Someone like Eminem grew up in the inner city and experienced the authentic roots of rap as a linguistically based social competition where people expressed their personal empowerment through the cleverness of the rhyme and the one-upping of their opponents. I can see the origins of rap being very much about empowerment that is born of the internal human spirit regardless of circumstance. In that way, I see the ultra-privileged performers, and yes, particularly white wealthy performers, delivering something that misses that deeper context. Even the display of bling and excess is a sort of FU to inner city poverty, showing it no longer has power. People who start at the top and provide a decorative expression of rap don't convey that same thing. I'm curious to hear other input.

Good post Powehi, I have a slightly different take.

I see three cultures: the spoken culture of traditional tribes, the literate culture of the educated, and the new electronic culture of the net.

The first imperative of any culture is to survive and thrive.

The literate culture makes spoken culture the content of literate culture, a perfect example is Anthropology, where tribal peoples are made the content of literacy. This destroys the moral of spoken culture, it devalues it, causing emotional pain, which is escaped with alcohol, drugs, and domestic violence and sexual abuse.

Meanwhile into this drama of the literate and spoken cultures strolls the electronic culture on our phones on the net. This has given renewed hope to spoken cultures that they may survive and thrive anew. However this means demoralising and devaluing the literate culture and causing emotional pain.

It is a mistake to underestimate the hatred spoken culures have for the literate culture. Here we have the perfect example of Lieutenant Cook, the world's greatest navigator from the Arctic to the Antarctic, but most of all Lieutenant Cook was a great man of the Western Enlightenment. And of course the Western Enlightenment was based on literacy.

Lieutenant Cook touches Australia twice, once to repair his ship, the lightest of touches. Yet the spoken cultures want to tear down his statue and throw it into the sea. What the spoken cultures hate is not Lieutenant Cook but the Western Enlightenment which they want to throw into the sea.

And the spoken cultures are cock-a-hoop because it was a spoken culture that violently murdered Lieutenant Cook for inadvertently intruding on a spoken religious ceremony.

 

[GoggleGirl17]

I don't think any individual can claim that they own an entire genre of music that they themselves did not invent, especially since, like language, music undergoes evolution. If you can relate to a song's message, regardless of race, then I think that's fine. Music can also mean different things to different people, depending on how they apply it to themselves. That's art. However, if a song is explicitly about being a 21st century black person within a First World country, and you're white and you want to emulate a certain persona while ignoring the message of the song, I think that's disrespectful, but a person's right to enjoy music should not be limited.

 

[FemMecha]

I couldn't stand rap, still can't. But Em was different. I've never heard anything like him. He rhymed words that weren't even supposed to rhyme and how he delivers it is like a gatling gun.

I don't listen to a lot of rap and am not particularly current, but I really like any music that tells the truth. Coolio's "Gansta's Paradise" is poignant. I also like Missy Elliott, Lauryn Hill, and others.

 

[anticlimatic]

This is the most racist thread I've ever seen here.

 

[Mole]

Lieutenant Cook was violently murdered by spoken people for accidentally intruding on a spoken religious ceremony, just as so many were murdered at Charlie Hebdo in France for the blasphemy of a cartoon of Mohammed, click charlie cartoon france - Google Search.

This is the vengeance of the spoken cultures against the literate culture of the West.

 

[Vendrah]

I had absolutely no idea where to put this but [MENTION=40907]permanent_temp[/MENTION] 's post reminded me of something I get mixed feedback on and I DO want to understand better...

Obviously, rap music can be a very "afrocentric" (I hope that is the correct word?) genre of music. And often times rappers will use a soft N word and things like that within their music. Over the years whites have enjoyed rap music as well, including having a guy like Eminem in the industry.

So I am obviously willing to hear anyone's educated responses, but I would really appreciate if some of our biracial or african-american/other ethnicities users would comment on this. You are the ones experiencing this issue and I want to understand it better. Because as said I notice some care and some do not.

1. Do you feel whites have a right to enjoy the music? Do you feel disdain when you see white people listening to "Black" music?

2. How do you feel about them, say like the Kendrick experience, when they rap or sing it back, using the exact lyrics even if they used the N word in the song?

3. How do you feel about white rappers in general?

4. What do you think appreciation of rap music should do for your community?

5. Is there a right or wrong way to handle this topic?

6. If you are comfortable, this is completely optional, what race do you identify with?

thank you for any responses.

I am not black, I am an intermediate of white and black like 60-80% of people in my country, sometimes this means 'aka latin'.
But I agree with [MENTION=41391]theablekingedgar[/MENTION], I don't like this idea of constraining music and race and I would guess that most artists would not like either. I have been listening to japanese songs, I also listen to lots of songs in english, but since I am latin american that should mean that I should limit myself to a 'latin' genre? No thanks.

Anyway, I don't like rap and some people like to throw a racist label me but I remember I like Pharrell Williams "Happy", "Get Lucky", etc..

 

[Mole]

This is the most racist thread I've ever seen here.

The Marxist Left had almost no success in the 20th century except for South Africa, where anti-racism was successful. And since then the Left call anyone they don't like, racist.

Ironically, as white racism was defeated in South Africa, black racism has taken over with directions at the highest level, and carried out against helpless white families in their own homes with sustained torture with farm implements, rape, and murder. And the world remains silent lest they be called, racist.

 

[Jaguar]

I don't listen to a lot of rap and am not particularly current, but I really like any music that tells the truth. Coolio's "Gansta's Paradise" is poignant. I also like Missy Elliott, Lauryn Hill, and others.

Music that tells the truth, eh? Go for Nina Simone. Read the lyrics to 'Mississippi Goddamn'. It doesn't get any more truthful than that song and why it was written.

 

[FemMecha]

Music that tells the truth, eh? Go for Nina Simone. Read the lyrics to 'Mississippi Goddamn'. It doesn't get any more truthful than that song and why it was written.

I adore Nina Simone. I feel like the great jazz vocalists achieve the depths of expressive power combined with the heights of technique. I do know and love jazz. Most of my knowledge is in classical traditions around the world and some folk traditions. Popular idioms are known to me with holes in my knowledge base, so it's kinda like Swiss cheese for me.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Good grief. I never know what to make of this sort of thing. Some people criticize enjoying and, heaven forbid, personally partaking of something from other cultures as "cultural appropriation". Where is the line between appropriation, which presumably is disrespectful and bad, and appreciation, which I would hope is good and allows us to, well, appreciate the diversity of the world around us? I for one would get very bored if everyone was like me, did the same things, etc. I like hearing and seeing things that are outside my own lived experience. If I enjoy them, I want to keep listening/watching, and perhaps even participate myself. I find it hard to understand how people can be offended by that.

Reminds me of the time I was having dinner in a restaurant with some grad school friends, to celebrate one of them graduating. We were all wearing sarees, just for fun (one of the friends is Indian, and shared hers with us). When I walked through the lobby to go to the rest room there was an Indian family on their way in who started giving me funny looks, as if white women shouldn't be wearing the things. Obviously my Indian friend was not of the same mindset.

My take is, as long as you aren’t doing it for the sole purpose of “gaining points”, and out of mere appreciation and enjoyment, it’s all good.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Rap is another form of folk music. None of it ever belonged to any one ethnic group. Music should and will continue to cross pollinate and evolve. “Classicists” or traditionalists who want to write genres into stone and prevent further development are anathema