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Random Star Trek thoughts

Doctor Cringelord

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Watching Voyager for the first time as an adult. I gotta say, it is so much better than I remember it being. and omg can it make me CRY Season 2 Episode 12 Resistance has me bawling my adorable eyes out. I think Janeway could be my favorite captain...
when you get to season 4 and later and realize the character they brought on as eye candy for the teenaged boy demographic is in fact one of the most nuanced, complex characters in all of star trek.
 
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Doctor Cringelord

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as much as I'd like to be a Spock, a Data, or even a Doctor, I have to admit I'll always be a Miles O'Brien. But at least I'm not a Boimler. Still a Worf in the sheets though. Or maybe a Dax :devil:
 
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Doctor Cringelord

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after catching up with most of new trek shows, I have revised my suggested watch order for noobs.

1. TNG
2. DS9 seasons 1-2
3. Movie: Generations (optional and can also be slotted in later after the TOS movies)
4. DS9 seasons 3-4
5. Movie: First Contact
6. DS9 seasons 5-6
7. Movie: Insurrection
8. Voyager seasons 1-7
9. Movie: Nemesis
10. Picard seasons 1-present
11. Enterprise seasons 1-4
12. Movies: Star Trek 2009, Into Darkness, and Beyond
13. Discovery
14. Strange New Worlds
15. TOS
16. TAS
17. Movies 1-6
18. Lower Decks

I put Lower decks last because it will be easier to appreciate the numerous references to past Trek shows
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I think my fave starfleet uniform styles are the early DS9/voyager jumpsuits and the TNG movie/late DS9 greys. I also like the Lower Decks uniforms.

Discovery has beautiful blue uniforms but I dislike the rank pips being so small on the badges. I like being able to easily see the ranks. I also think they could tone down the shiny silver and gold accents. these are almost too fancy and would work better as dress/ceremonial uniforms vs day to day work uniforms. I feel the same about the classic movie era maroon jacket design. they look hot and impractical but would work fine as dress uniforms.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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USS SHENZHOU IN THE TOS STYLE. I really wish they had stuck with that TOS aesthetic, and just updated it a bit like In A Mirror, Darkly


The ships in Discovery look way too 24th century. When we first watched DIS, my wife didn't realize at first that we were watching a prequel to TOS. It all looks more advanced and slick. I do think they did a good job overall in updating the look of the TOS enterprise without ruining a very classic and iconic design. But the other ship classes look like they should be fighting the dominion alongside galaxy and nebula class cruisers. Enterprise did an OK job but even their design borrowed a bit too much from the next gen era aesthetic.

shenzhou__by_puffinstudios_demu967-pre.jpg
 
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Doctor Cringelord

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I understand they were going for a more realistic, alien portrayal of klingons, but I still absolutely hate the space orcs they were turned into. First off, it's annoying they are constantly speaking klingonese. At least do the Hunt For Red October thing where you have a seamless transition to them suddenly speaking english (where it's assumed they are speaking klingonese the entire time, but we're hearing an english dub or automatic translation). I wouldn't even mind the constant klingonese if they spoke similarly to old school klingons. These klingons talk Reeeeally slow, enunciating every goddamn klingon word (as if we are somehow going to better understand them when we already have subtitles any way, so why speak slow?). It's like the creators read about klingon culture and even used the klingon dictionary, yet somehow never actually watched any episodes that delved into the culture and customs.

The klingon scenes really drag and take me out of discovery. otherwise, i would have probably enjoyed season 1 a lot more
 

The Cat

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I understand they were going for a more realistic, alien portrayal of klingons, but I still absolutely hate the space orcs they were turned into. First off, it's annoying they are constantly speaking klingonese. At least do the Hunt For Red October thing where you have a seamless transition to them suddenly speaking english (where it's assumed they are speaking klingonese the entire time, but we're hearing an english dub or automatic translation). I wouldn't even mind the constant klingonese if they spoke similarly to old school klingons. These klingons talk Reeeeally slow, enunciating every goddamn klingon word (as if we are somehow going to better understand them when we already have subtitles any way, so why speak slow?). It's like the creators read about klingon culture and even used the klingon dictionary, yet somehow never actually watched any episodes that delved into the culture and customs.

The klingon scenes really drag and take me out of discovery. otherwise, i would have probably enjoyed season 1 a lot more
Yeah, Its an aesthetic choice that visually ties Star Trek with LOTR...it's tbh I would have rathered these klingons be a thing like the remans on romulous. on one hand I like the direction i think they're going with them, but on the other hand, I wished they matched the other cannon more.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Yeah, Its an aesthetic choice that visually ties Star Trek with LOTR...it's tbh I would have rathered these klingons be a thing like the remans on romulous. on one hand I like the direction i think they're going with them, but on the other hand, I wished they matched the other cannon more.
Yeah, I mean the idea of all these weird subsects and various types of klingons is fascinating and possibly worth exploring. There's so many different versions from the devious mongolesque warlords of TOS era to the space vikings of TNG/DS9. I guess it's just been done kind of clunky overall, not just including in Disco. Enterprise tried to remedy things by explaining the augment virus, and that almost complicated it more. All because of a throwaway line by Worf in a DS9 crossover episode that was never meant to be taken all that seriously.
 

Totenkindly

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Are you still in Season 1 of Discovery? I don't recall if the Klingons ever showed up past Season 1, and I did not watch Season 4.

Fuller's not just a Trekkie (although he cut his chops on Voyager and a bit of DSN), he's done shows in every genre and typically tries to innovate, or at least view them from new, sometimes severe or disturbing angles. I think he gets bored adhering to a static standard.

So Season 1 was tailored off that approach, and then he left halfway through the season so it became a jumbled rushed incoherence mess. It was an interesting experiment, I think, but some things didn't work -- in part maybe because of the ideas, or also possibly because Fuller wasn't there to make it work and the vision was such a departure that no one else really shared it or could complete it.

There is also the question of whether future work should be hemmed in by the limitations of the past. Let's face it, TOS did the best it could at the time but today the appearance looks laughable -- so if you're going to write futuristic stuff, you want it to look more futuristic than the world we live in. This might not be a problem with continuity until you try to do prequels to the old stories, where you wouldn't expect it to look or function any better and in fact should probably be less advanced.

So is that something you play into and accept a lesser experience, or do you assume the viewer can pick up the slack and understand the limitations of the earlier series? I guess it depends on the showrunner sensibilities. I don't try to get hung up on THAT, I think it's more important whether the show is actually coherent, meaningful, and interesting. it seems like such a waste of time to argue about superficial qualities of which everyone already knows the basis for.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Are you still in Season 1 of Discovery? I don't recall if the Klingons ever showed up past Season 1, and I did not watch Season 4.

Fuller's not just a Trekkie (although he cut his chops on Voyager and a bit of DSN), he's done shows in every genre and typically tries to innovate, or at least view them from new, sometimes severe or disturbing angles. I think he gets bored adhering to a static standard.

So Season 1 was tailored off that approach, and then he left halfway through the season so it became a jumbled rushed incoherence mess. It was an interesting experiment, I think, but some things didn't work -- in part maybe because of the ideas, or also possibly because Fuller wasn't there to make it work and the vision was such a departure that no one else really shared it or could complete it.

There is also the question of whether future work should be hemmed in by the limitations of the past. Let's face it, TOS did the best it could at the time but today the appearance looks laughable -- so if you're going to write futuristic stuff, you want it to look more futuristic than the world we live in. This might not be a problem with continuity until you try to do prequels to the old stories, where you wouldn't expect it to look or function any better and in fact should probably be less advanced.

So is that something you play into and accept a lesser experience, or do you assume the viewer can pick up the slack and understand the limitations of the earlier series? I guess it depends on the showrunner sensibilities. I don't try to get hung up on THAT, I think it's more important whether the show is actually coherent, meaningful, and interesting. it seems like such a waste of time to argue about superficial qualities of which everyone already knows the basis for.
In A Mirror Darkly and Trials and Tribbleations proved that the TOS look could be updated in a way that felt organic and natural when shown in the context of modern Trek production value. Lower Decks also does a good job of call backs to TOS aesthetics and tech. No one's saying they need to go back to spandex and shoddy sets. But they went to the opposite extreme and made it all look a bit too shiny and new when we're supposed to be watching a prequel era that was known for being low tech (in comparison to the later eras we've seen). Disco even did a good job of updating the constitution class. The USS Discovery also has a TOS era feel (it's inspired by early concept drawings by Ralph McQuarrie if I remember correctly). It's just the other tech I find ugly and uninspired. Shenzou could look TOS without looking like a cheap model (see above image I shared). Even the new klingon ships lack elegance, they just look like big greebley blobs. Why do spaceships in newer science fiction have to feature tons of greebles and shit attached to the hulls? Sometimes there is something to be said for allowing the lines and curves of a design to shine, but we don't get that as much in Disco. Sometimes less is more. Real world examples--look at most military tech or for that matter automobiles--the trend has always been toward the smoothest possible lines and a minimal amount of shit protruding from the bodies.

I know every series is a product of its own time, but for the most part it's all gone together mostly seamless and it isn't a stretch to accept the various series and levels of quality as part of the same universe--TOS included
 
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Totenkindly

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I don't think Discovery is prioritizing the things you care about. It seems to have other concerns.

Not sure how I feel about that show myself -- although not bothering to watch Season 4 might be an indicator. Then again, I've been semi-bored by Trek for years, after TNG ended. If I can manage, I'd like to slog through DSN. And of course, continue to watch Lower Decks.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I don't think Discovery is prioritizing the things you care about. It seems to have other concerns.

Not sure how I feel about that show myself -- although not bothering to watch Season 4 might be an indicator. Then again, I've been semi-bored by Trek for years, after TNG ended. If I can manage, I'd like to slog through DSN. And of course, continue to watch Lower Decks.
It's kinda game of thrones in space? I dunno. Everything dark gets compared to GoT these days, but I think that's fair since every show wanted to be GoT after it blew up in popular culture.

I guess grimdark space battle stuff just bores me. I have a really hard time staying engaged. I also find the characters are mostly very stiff and dour all of the time. Tilly may be the one exception. Maybe Stamets? I get it with Burnham, because her upbringing explains it, but then it feels like every other human character is also competing for the prize for most lifeless. Star Trek can give me a pretty broad array of stories and premises, but please also give me believable characters. For all its contrivances, at least the characters were mostly relatable and believable in the war arc shit we saw on DS9 and Enterprise.

I did like the Harry Mudd time loop episode. That was the most "trek" yet of season 1. Also the subplot about the tardigrade felt like an actual trek storyline and resolution.


Lower Decks does a way better job of both presenting a new type of show (few trek series ever touched on second contacts and/or all of the support work that went on after the gloryhounds of the enterprise had moved on to new planets and crises) that also feels like it's part of that universe. I struggle to make that connection when I watch DSC and to a lesser extent Picard. I wish the live action shows were as good as the new animated shows.
 

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It's kinda game of thrones in space? I dunno. Everything dark gets compared to GoT these days, but I think that's fair since every show wanted to be GoT after it blew up in popular culture.
I didn't feel a GoT vibe. The show feels pretty woke by Season 3. (I hate that word, but honestly Disc feels more like a vibe by then, rather than a show. Season 2 might have felt the most authentically a show.) Season 1 just felt like a bunch of cool twists that were not handled or paced well, like the show never really got the level of development it needed before rushing to air, and trying to introduce some radically different ideas. And of course, I'm a Hannibal fan (also Brian Fuller), so I'm used to his darker vibes, it's just who he's capable of being rather than trying to emulate GoT or something.

I do appreciate by the end of Season 3 that the show felt like a "cast" success, it wasn't like 2-3 characters were the heroes and the rest just window dressing, they succeeded as a true team. So kind of more Millenial or Gen Z feel?

Lower Decks does a way better job of both presenting a new type of show (few trek series ever touched on second contacts and/or all of the support work that went on after the gloryhounds of the enterprise had moved on to new planets and crises) that also feels like it's part of that universe. I struggle to make that connection when I watch DSC and to a lesser extent Picard. I wish the live action shows were as good as the new animated shows.
Did I watch Season 2 of Picard? I don't think I did... Season 1 was kinda nothingburger, again a bunch of meh foo-foo missed opportunities. I guess Data got closure. I have trouble watching it after they forced Alison Pill into such a shittily written role; watch her in Garland's "DEVS" if you want to see what she is capable of. Just really was meh about it after season 1 .
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I didn't feel a GoT vibe. The show feels pretty woke by Season 3. (I hate that word, but honestly Disc feels more like a vibe by then, rather than a show. Season 2 might have felt the most authentically a show.) Season 1 just felt like a bunch of cool twists that were not handled or paced well, like the show never really got the level of development it needed before rushing to air, and trying to introduce some radically different ideas. And of course, I'm a Hannibal fan (also Brian Fuller), so I'm used to his darker vibes, it's just who he's capable of being rather than trying to emulate GoT or something.

I do appreciate by the end of Season 3 that the show felt like a "cast" success, it wasn't like 2-3 characters were the heroes and the rest just window dressing, they succeeded as a true team. So kind of more Millenial or Gen Z feel?


Did I watch Season 2 of Picard? I don't think I did... Season 1 was kinda nothingburger, again a bunch of meh foo-foo missed opportunities. I guess Data got closure. I have trouble watching it after they forced Alison Pill into such a shittily written role; watch her in Garland's "DEVS" if you want to see what she is capable of. Just really was meh about it after season 1 .
I actually really enjoyed Picard season 2. Like A LOT. It might jump up there if I were to ever rank entire seasons of Trek shows. Picard overall has a vibe much closer to DS9, the later movies and Enterprise, than it is to TNG. I'm OK with that. I wouldn't want a rehash of TNG, and if I want to reexperience that type of Trek vibe, there's The Orville or Lower Decks sort of carrying on the flame.

I should add that for all of my nitpicking and bashing of DSC, I'm still enjoying it and plan to watch the entire thing.

I like Burnham, and don't understand all of the hate for her (well, I do understand a good bit of it from certain people uggh). Yes, she is kind of a Mary Sue, but not really. It's a part of her character, that she is an emotionally stunted overachiever with difficulty letting her guard down. She is therefore imperfect and there's room for growth. So hardly a true mary sue as some critics labelled her. Really no moreso than any other major trek character. I mean if we're gonna call her one than we have to include Kirk, Spock, Wesley Crusher, et al. Some of the criticisms of DSC were definiftely driven by bigotry.

You might find PIC season 2 a bit convoluted if you thought similarly of season 1, but it was a drastic improvement and did a half decent job tying up the Q arc (even though TNG technically resolved that in their finale). I have always been fascinated by Q's relationship to Picard and got the impression he viewed Picard how some people view a favorite pet.
 

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I actually really enjoyed Picard season 2. Like A LOT. It might jump up there if I were to ever rank entire seasons of Trek shows. Picard overall has a vibe much closer to DS9, the later movies and Enterprise, than it is to TNG. I'm OK with that. I wouldn't want a rehash of TNG, and if I want to reexperience that type of Trek vibe, there's The Orville or Lower Decks sort of carrying on the flame.
nooooo...
1669210162260.png


I like Burnham, and don't understand all of the hate for her (well, I do understand a good bit of it from certain people uggh). Yes, she is kind of a Mary Sue, but not really. It's a part of her character, that she is an emotionally stunted overachiever with difficulty letting her guard down. She is therefore imperfect and there's room for growth. So hardly a true mary sue as some critics labelled her. Really no moreso than any other major trek character. I mean if we're gonna call her one than we have to include Kirk, Spock, Wesley Crusher, et al. Some of the criticisms of DSC were definiftely driven by bigotry.
I don't dislike Burnham, and Sonequa Martin-Green is great.

I just kinda hate how you know they are just going to make her a captain regardless of her character and behavior, and just fall back into a typical kind of role for a lead. I hate predictable and unrisky stuff. So they just pretend like they're going to take her in a different direction but it's all so inevitable.

You might find PIC season 2 a bit convoluted if you thought similarly of season 1, but it was a drastic improvement and did a half decent job tying up the Q arc (even though TNG technically resolved that in their finale). I have always been fascinated by Q's relationship to Picard and got the impression he viewed Picard how some people view a favorite pet.
It wasn't that Season 1 was convoluted, it was that it sucked emotionally and intellectually. Like, just noise and pictures, no real weight past the first episode -- aside from the episode with Riker and Troi, which I felt was well handled, and then the end of the finale with Data. I didn't care about much of it at all.

Yes, Q views Picard as a pet. We got that from the TNG pilot. Q's fun to watch, but unless there's something new to that relationship, did Season 2 add anything? (I'm actually asking.) Again, it's like really liking a band's first album from the 80's, then every album has felt like the same album and the songs interchangeable, and it's now 2022. Do I need to buy the new one?
 

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nooooo...
View attachment 28021


I don't dislike Burnham, and Sonequa Martin-Green is great.

I just kinda hate how you know they are just going to make her a captain regardless of her character and behavior, and just fall back into a typical kind of role for a lead. I hate predictable and unrisky stuff. So they just pretend like they're going to take her in a different direction but it's all so inevitable.


It wasn't that Season 1 was convoluted, it was that it sucked emotionally and intellectually. Like, just noise and pictures, no real weight past the first episode -- aside from the episode with Riker and Troi, which I felt was well handled, and then the end of the finale with Data. I didn't care about much of it at all.

Yes, Q views Picard as a pet. We got that from the TNG pilot. Q's fun to watch, but unless there's something new to that relationship, did Season 2 add anything? (I'm actually asking.) Again, it's like really liking a band's first album from the 80's, then every album has felt like the same album and the songs interchangeable, and it's now 2022. Do I need to buy the new one?
I don't know that it added much, but it did give us a fitting end to their relationship that I admit got me a little emotional. I thought they sorta already did a roads-not-travelled episode with Q on TNG (Tapestry, I think?), and I thought that was the direction the season would take, but then it went into a zany time travel storyline--very much in the vein of DS9 and Voyager time travel episodes with lots of high stakes. I don't think you'll get anything new, but I guess think of it like this album will feature the last recorded performance by a beloved bandmember, so it might be worth checking out for that reason, even though it adds nothing new to their sound. De Lancie and Stewart are like two virtuosos playing off one another, but it's nothing you haven't seen before, aside from their final scene together. That analogy also seems to fit the upcoming final season, if the teaser trailer was any indication. It definitely looks like it's going to be treated as the TNG cast's Undiscovered Country. I'm excited to see how the others like Geordi and Worf have changed, how they handled Data's death, etc. Especially Geordi, since if anyone loved Data as a best friend, it was him more than Picard or any other character
 
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