Random Politics Thread

[The Cat]

are super heroes just propaganda for the super rich?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

My issue with Biden is that he is unwilling to use the methods at his disposal as president. That doesn't come from handlers. It comes from him spending years in the Senate. Or have most people forgotten about that?

What methods are at his disposal? The narrative I always run up against is that the Republicans never let them do anything, but I've always doubted this.

 

[The Cat]

What methods are at his disposal? The narrative I always run up against is that the Republicans never let them do anything, but I've always doubted this.

there's not letting and there's not putting up much of a fight, in the senate that is known as Tuesdays.​

 

[ceecee]

What methods are at his disposal? The narrative I always run up against is that the Republicans never let them do anything, but I've always doubted this.

The 14th Amendment refusal is one. I'd also make sure every syllable of that amendment was used to remove every seditious piece of shit in Congress as well. They want a civil war, I'd give them one on their political ass. Executive orders is another he seems loathe to do. Not that he hasn't used them, but it is not nearly enough. For someone who said - I want to help the shit out of people - I would start there. I'd keep a stack on my nightstand and write them up daily. I get that they have a shelf life but it's far better than what we currently have.

Sometimes I wonder about state level legislatures I actually know, some pretty well. And how they would do if faced with the same issues Biden is.

 

[Virtual ghost]

The 14th Amendment refusal is one. I'd also make sure every syllable of that amendment was used to remove every seditious piece of shit in Congress as well. They want a civil war, I'd give them one on their political ass. Executive orders is another he seems loathe to do. Not that he hasn't used them, but it is not nearly enough. For someone who said - I want to help the shit out of people - I would start there. I'd keep a stack on my nightstand and write them up daily. I get that they have a shelf life but it's far better than what we currently have.

Sometimes I wonder about state level legislatures I actually know, some pretty well. And how they would do if faced with the same issues Biden is.

Speaking of "give them hell" options:

There is something I never really understood.
Why is Democratic party allowing the Republicans to profit from media cacophony this much ? I mean American media space as it is openly favors short, simplistic and populistic messages. Therefore why not create a well known space that will harbor and present much more complex explanations on various topics. Where explanation will get into technical details and even dismantle the most common talking points that are simply wrong from technical/scientific/moral point of view. So when someone is just BSing in front of the crowd you can just link the data in the pool where in the detail is explained why the person is wrong. This wouldn't give you every voter but having this prepared 24/7 and just throwing it at the table when needed would surely convert a decent amount of people. What as a swing in the terms of electoral college can matter quite a lot. Few points up and down often really matter.


I mean why not make access to complex information much more accessible to everyone ?
After all it is well known that collage education is quite likely to push you towards the Democratic party. So why not nurture that line of though across the society as a alterntive to open fearmongering or conspiracy theories ? Especially in the times when clarity is evidently in short supply. After all you can't really be number one in the world if the debate will be at the level of 6th grade.

 

[Totenkindly]

Part of the problem is that the audience doesn't trust facts or explanations, it doesn't fit into their worldview nor addresses their emotional concerns. It's hard mentally and emotionally to confront hard realities, people's daily lives are already confusing and difficult to manage (they are exhausted), and these communities live in echo chambers. Why do you think religion has such a hold on our country? It is providing comfort more easily, it's the easier way forward and "feels hopeful" as long as you are in the majority of adherents, versus something more difficult that leads you into the unknown and offers no clear promises and might even involve you having to break from your community and/or family.

There's a huge push against outsiders / people not in your tribe; people with knowledge / experts who don't share your values or beliefs; and it's always easier to manipulate out of fear. People are afraid of losing what little they have and will fight over what they can see and what is in their hands, versus trusting others who seem different and don't share your values.

Maybe that's a cynical way to look at it but I feel like it is realistic here nowadays. Still, it is worth it to try to capture the independents and the people who want something more. I don't know why the messaging has so persistently sucked. Resting on their laurels? Trusting too much for people to be logical or do the "right thing" in their minds? Thinking the message is clear when it's not? It seems to be a lot of in-circle congratulations and hand-slapping without regard for how the messaging resonates outside those in charge.

(It's not a lot different than working in a bureaucracy honestly -- high-level execs who seem to be decent-enough people, but they sit around and make pretty slide slows and timelines and "message statements" and organizational goalsheets, while meanwhile everyone actually doing work is underpaid, overworked, faced with unrealistic goals, underresourced, and feels like upper-management is out of touch the impact of their direction.)

I mentioned before the obvious regarding Pride (for one small example for a particular demographic): I don't need proper pronouns and a month where corporation and government does lip service and then just says nothing for the rest of the year, I need to not be legislated against, have the same enforced freedoms as everyone else, be allowed to seek medical treatment in accordance with certified professional doctors, and not be fearful for my life all the time. Maybe it's easier to just call something "Pride month" but that's not really the priority concern here. Why is this so hard to define?

 

[The Cat]

Speaking of "give them hell" options:

There is something I never really understood.
Why is Democratic party allowing the Republicans to profit from media cacophony this much ? I mean American media space as it is openly favors short, simplistic and populistic messages. Therefore why not create a well known space that will harbor and present much more complex explanations on various topics. Where explanation will get into technical details and even dismantle the most common talking points that are simply wrong from technical/scientific/moral point of view. So when someone is just BSing in front of the crowd you can just link the data in the pool where in the detail is explained why the person is wrong. This wouldn't give you every voter but having this prepared 24/7 and just throwing it at the table when needed would surely convert a decent amount of people. What as a swing in the terms of electoral college can matter quite a lot. Few points up and down often really matter.


I mean why not make access to complex information much more accessible to everyone ?
After all it is well known that collage education is quite likely to push you towards the Democratic party. So why not nurture that line of though across the society as a alterntive to open fearmongering or conspiracy theories ? Especially in the times when clarity is evidently in short supply. After all you can't really be number one in the world if the debate will be at the level of 6th grade.

Everyone likes having a blame monster for why they cant help you out. "God Tim I sure would love to give you a raise, but you know how those slave drivers at corporate are." "Gee Little Billy I sure would love to let you stay out past curfew, but you know how your father is." "I don't know Terry, let me shoot the vacation request down the line, oooh sorry you're not gonna be able to take that time out because of Mitch and the Gang, our hands are tied." "We tried so hard, but they're just totally unreasonable." "Thank you for calling your time is very important to us. Goodbye." When you stop confusing collaboration with cooperation, it makes much more sense. Im pretty sure some of the older corpo democrats are living in that sweet spot between denial and delusion that they really can't understand why people don't like some of their friends across the isle. On the state level it seems to be less politics and more wtf are you assholes trying to do here, but there's politicians and people and rarely the two meet on the level.

 

[The Cat]

 

[Virtual ghost]

Regarding last two comments :

I understand all of that but the real question is why not try to expose people to complex information anyway ? Sure, some will resist but some wouldn't. Especially if you expose them for a few times. I mean in US elections 5 point difference can be the difference between a tie and a landslide. So if just a few people decide to take your "offer" that can quickly become a big deal. I just don't see the point of hiding behind "they wouldn't believe you", because the expectation isn't that everyone will embraces what you are offering. So if you manage to nudge everything by just a few points that alone should make elections to be less of a nail bitter. What is good for overall mental health of the nation. However with proper presentation this can push things well beyond just a few points. The whole problem in a way is exactly in the fact that presentation of complex topics (like climate change for example) is pretty bad. That is why I suggested some known or official place where the whole thing will be explained in detail. Since all MSM just doesn't seem to have the capacity to present the story this complex. In other words if you change your presentation then perhaps people will become less resistant to certain ideas.

 

[The Cat]

Regarding last two comments :

I understand all of that but the real question is why not try to expose people to complex information anyway ? Sure, some will resist but some wouldn't. Especially if you expose them for a few times. I mean in US elections 5 point difference can be the difference between a tie and a landslide. So if just a few people decide to take your "offer" that can quickly become a big deal. I just don't see the point of hiding behind "they wouldn't believe you", because the expectation isn't that everyone will embraces what you are offering. So if you manage to nudge everything by just a few points that alone should make elections to be less of a nail bitter. What is good for overall mental health of the nation. However with proper presentation this can push things well beyond just a few points. The whole problem in a way is exactly in the fact that presentation of complex topics (like climate change for example) is pretty bad. That is why I suggested some known or official place where the whole thing will be explained in detail. Since all MSM just doesn't seem to have the capacity to present the story this complex. In other words if you change your presentation then perhaps people will become less resistant to certain ideas.

That's just never going to happen here. Because you see right now what happens when we're exposed to new and complex information. As a country for whatever reason we just don't like the whole thing explained in detail. We have too many other distractions, so we really need just the bullet points and as quickly as possible. Also we don't seem to like things to change from our regularly scheduled programs. We went from the wild west to a Dystopia in less than a century, we're exhausted, overworked, fed a constant diet of fear thy neighbor. We're addicts on a dream that never existed, so we delude ourselves into thinking despite not thinking that ultimately as long as things don't change too much or too fast, well then it's normal. Everyone wants to be normal. Deep down. The devil is in the details good sir and half the country is not fond of seeming like they have anything to do with the devil. Also they can be terribly boring and we have finite free time slaving in the machine so we tend to use it to escape into fantasy rather than try to fix reality.

Also Totenkindly is quite right about the mistrust of facts.

I'll add that there is still very much a cultural divide between urban and rural folks. And where once people might have gotten around that by getting to know each other. The MSM seems to do its damnedest to keep stoking those sorts of divides. No one likes being thought of as stupid or ignorant just because of where you're from or what your great grand daddy did, even if you think it was on the wrong side of history because blood is blood and everyone else is strangers. Could those people be reached and educated about how things really are, absolutely, but its unlikely because our media is more interested in stirring up conflicts to keep people divided than letting them come together and threaten the status quo. Follow the money I guess.

But the main issue is fear and desperation and the gnawing reality that in America, it can ALWAYS be worse. So shut up and color. Sad, but these things are cyclical.

 

[Totenkindly]

I understand all of that but the real question is why not try to expose people to complex information anyway ?

Through what pathway? Please explain specifically WHAT pathway of information will be accepted or recognized as valid in the USA anymore.

• We are saturated with information all day long.
• There are various overlapping echo chambers.
• There is no trustworthy source anymore. (The established news companies used to feel trustworthy but no longer are seen that way. The government is no longer trusted. Corporations all want to make money. Interest groups are just representing their interests.)
• We don't trust outsiders (so it has to be a source from inside the US).
• What, they're gonna come here to the Internet to get advice from some random dude behind a computer screen as an authority? Is that how you hope to change things?

You are preaching to the percentage of people who rely on logical thought and collected information from varied sources -- basically trying to triangulate answers that seem to conform best to reality, rather than religion, or zealous pet issues, or external influence.

But you can see how well this has been going. Even the Independents were apathetic and/or bamboozled by the likes of Trump. They have mostly been reduced to, "Yeah, okay, all of these people are going to suck; so as long as they don't fuck with my interests, then they can ignore/fleece disadvantaged groups as much as they want, as long as they don't touch me and mainly leave me to my own devices." Wary apathy. Both-sidesisms.

If you cannot provide an actual authority for information that is generally regarded as trustworthy across the populace, how are you supposed to disseminate information to help convince the rational folks in that populace of what is true? Rest assured, the folks already inclined to operate that way are already striving to draw reasonable conclusions from reliable data.

The best you can really do is shout into the void so that new/young people might hear something that triggers awareness (and sure, that's a good reason to do that). Everyone else is already drowning.

Do you think irrational populaces are going to respond rationally when given reliable information? No, things feel well past that point. This country has systematically destroyed any actual bedrock of information dissemination. Now it's all postmodern chaos.

I sometimes fantasize about the perfect test: Letting the group splinter into separate societies that are each self-contained... and then watch to see which ones immolate themselves and which ones thrive. Right now there is just way too much craziness that is managing to thrive on the coattails of others with more sanity. If they had to actually live according to their own craziness, they wouldn't last long and/or would destroy themselves.

The Sledgehammer of Reality doesn't endure fools for too long, if they aren't constantly being buoyed up. I'd love to see hard right Magas try to maintain a civilization when they don't understand any of the infrastructure of technology, society, government, financing, literally anything at all.

 

[The Cat]

It's a hell of a catch that catch-22.

The best there is.

This only becomes less satirical as time goes on.
​

 

[SensEye]

Regarding last two comments :

I understand all of that but the real question is why not try to expose people to complex information anyway ? Sure, some will resist but some wouldn't. Especially if you expose them for a few times. I mean in US elections 5 point difference can be the difference between a tie and a landslide. .

It's a noble sentiment, but I think it would fail to find traction. The problem is that producing such a source would take time and effort. That means it would cost money. And without a large audience, who is going to invest the time and energy?

Complex information is already available (on a wide variety of internet sources) for motivated seekers. What I think you are saying is that if a fairly convenient 'one stop shop' for information and unbiased expert analysis was available, more people would seek it out. I think it would probably move the needle a little bit, but I am not convinced it would be impactful. So even though I would agree it's a good idea in principle, the energy that would need to be invested to make such a source for a modest audience makes it impractical. Sad but true.

The majority of people would stick with their preference for short, snappy, bias confirming information sites like we have today. That's human nature, and that's how we got here in the first place. I think, pre-social media, MSM acted as sort of gate keepers. They still competed for audience attention, and ergo would sensationalize to some degree, but journalistic integrity kept them from going off the deep end (i.e. blatantly untrue op eds, promotion of conspiracy theories, totally one sided commentary on issues, etc.). Social media changed all that. People could get their natural inclination for bias confirmation and sensationalistic voyeurism fulfilled, and off they went. MSM had to abandon journalistic standards just to survive.

I have no answers really. People just won't change their natures and start to think. Not until their foolishness leads to dire consequences. Will humanity be able to course correct at that time? Who knows? Just to put in a bit of optimism to this post, humanity seems really poor at long term planning, but amazingly resourceful at dealing with immediate crises. So I hold out some hope, but it could be we get past the point of no return as well.

May you live in interesting times.

 

[The Cat]

That almost sounds like accelerationism, which is historically a bad idea.
And since we're all living in these interesting times together...
May your comfort match your compassion.

 

[Red Herring]

It's a noble sentiment, but I think it would fail to find traction. The problem is that producing such a source would take time and effort. That means it would cost money. And without a large audience, who is going to invest the time and energy?

Complex information is already available (on a wide variety of internet sources) for motivated seekers. What I think you are saying is that if a fairly convenient 'one stop shop' for information and unbiased expert analysis was available, more people would seek it out. I think it would probably move the needle a little bit, but I am not convinced it would be impactful. So even though I would agree it's a good idea in principle, the energy that would need to be invested to make such a source for a modest audience makes it impractical. Sad but true.

The majority of people would stick with their preference for short, snappy, bias confirming information sites like we have today. That's human nature, and that's how we got here in the first place. I think, pre-social media, MSM acted as sort of gate keepers. They still competed for audience attention, and ergo would sensationalize to some degree, but journalistic integrity kept them from going off the deep end (i.e. blatantly untrue op eds, promotion of conspiracy theories, totally one sided commentary on issues, etc.). Social media changed all that. People could get their natural inclination for bias confirmation and sensationalistic voyeurism fulfilled, and off they went. MSM had to abandon journalistic standards just to survive.

I have no answers really. People just won't change their natures and start to think. Not until their foolishness leads to dire consequences. Will humanity be able to course correct at that time? Who knows? Just to put in a bit of optimism to this post, humanity seems really poor at long term planning, but amazingly resourceful at dealing with immediate crises. So I hold out some hope, but it could be we get past the point of no return as well.

May you live in interesting times.

Historians sometimes describe the Thirty Years' War as the "arch-catastrophe of Central Europe".

The introduction of the printing press accelerated the spread of new ideas, causing greater social division, the loss of the power monopoly of the Catholic church, enabled the spread and sucess of protestantism and thus eventually contributed to the Thirty Years' War.

Not sure if that means anything to modern day Americans, but in some parts of my country 2/3 of the population died in that conflict which involved some fifteen countries. Overall about 40% of the population of the Holy Roman Empire died in that war. It is hard to overstate what a watershed event that was.

I do not want that to happen again and I do not want to live in a world that never knew the printing press*





*Referring to moveable type and the possibility for a mass production of books, pamphlets and newspapers as introduced by Johannes Gutenberg. I am aware that the earlier printing press was a Chinese invention.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Through what pathway? Please explain specifically WHAT pathway of information will be accepted or recognized as valid in the USA anymore.

• We are saturated with information all day long.
• There are various overlapping echo chambers.
• There is no trustworthy source anymore. (The established news companies used to feel trustworthy but no longer are seen that way. The government is no longer trusted. Corporations all want to make money. Interest groups are just representing their interests.)
• We don't trust outsiders (so it has to be a source from inside the US).
• What, they're gonna come here to the Internet to get advice from some random dude behind a computer screen as an authority? Is that how you hope to change things?

You are preaching to the percentage of people who rely on logical thought and collected information from varied sources -- basically trying to triangulate answers that seem to conform best to reality, rather than religion, or zealous pet issues, or external influence.

But you can see how well this has been going. Even the Independents were apathetic and/or bamboozled by the likes of Trump. They have mostly been reduced to, "Yeah, okay, all of these people are going to suck; so as long as they don't fuck with my interests, then they can ignore/fleece disadvantaged groups as much as they want, as long as they don't touch me and mainly leave me to my own devices." Wary apathy. Both-sidesisms.

If you cannot provide an actual authority for information that is generally regarded as trustworthy across the populace, how are you supposed to disseminate information to help convince the rational folks in that populace of what is true? Rest assured, the folks already inclined to operate that way are already striving to draw reasonable conclusions from reliable data.

The best you can really do is shout into the void so that new/young people might hear something that triggers awareness (and sure, that's a good reason to do that). Everyone else is already drowning.

Do you think irrational populaces are going to respond rationally when given reliable information? No, things feel well past that point. This country has systematically destroyed any actual bedrock of information dissemination. Now it's all postmodern chaos.

I sometimes fantasize about the perfect test: Letting the group splinter into separate societies that are each self-contained... and then watch to see which ones immolate themselves and which ones thrive. Right now there is just way too much craziness that is managing to thrive on the coattails of others with more sanity. If they had to actually live according to their own craziness, they wouldn't last long and/or would destroy themselves.

The Sledgehammer of Reality doesn't endure fools for too long, if they aren't constantly being buoyed up. I'd love to see hard right Magas try to maintain a civilization when they don't understand any of the infrastructure of technology, society, government, financing, literally anything at all.

The fact is that other developed countries are already heavily into their green deals, they have socialized healthcare for many generations, they vaccinated 90+% of people .... etc. However all of that didn't happen on itself. What is because the system itself is forcing you to some degree that you aren't complete moron. Plus more importantly the information seem to be presented in much more systematic manner (what is my main argument). Someone can be exposed to information whole day and still know less than someone who got an hour of quality info. In my opinion the main problem is that there is this complete cacophony all over US and it is really hard to get valid information. I live too far away from USA to know what would exactly work. However I can talk about possible options and my personal experience from the other side of the Atlantic. So let's go in some order.


Since your government swings all the time it is perhaps better that educated people make some kind of private website where you can find explanations that in detail explain complex problems (problems like climate change). They can even create some kinds of chapters or folders on the site that will talk about various problems. However the info must not be updated all the time. It has to be explained clearly and that is it. Since constant changes to the content make things less trustworthy. While basic scientific principles wouldn't change and there is no need to constantly change explanation of core principles. The idea is that once someone spreads evident misinformation that anyone can just drop a link to the website that has a reputation that it holds checked information (where it is presented in a decent way). As I said this wouldn't fix the whole problem but it should ease the problem (what is good enough in my book). However if people link all kinds of info as a reaction to misinformation then you basically lose clarity and observers usually don't have the time or nerves to go through all of linked info. Clarity is absolutely vital element and it seems that it is being overlooked in your country.


Also as none American I have locally access to much more media that are not none profit organizations (and they are paid through taxes) . In other words such media aren't so vulnerable to various interest groups and therefore they provide a decent amount of quality content. I mean even in the private media I wouldn't find stuff that I shouldn't have solved healthcare or stuff like that. Therefore through this you basically make news more trustworthy. So in the end I have much less conspiracy theories in the background noise. One other mechanism to do all of this is that here it is not possible to be home schooled. Everyone has to go to school for minimum of 8 years and in that period you have to do lab experiments, learn foreign languages, learn how to paint, learn how society works, go on a trip abroad ... etc. Plus I have something like 20 parties in the parliament and thus I can hear much more wider set of arguments than average US citizen. Forcing people to think in more complex ways than black and white is vital for success. After all if you think in black and white fashion encountering an Asian will blow up your whole worldview.


I mean you basically just have to take quality info and just throw it at people however you can. Somewhere it will stick and somewhere it wouldn't. However this is still better than not doing anything. In other words one of the ways how it is done in my local landscape is through TV quizzes. However they are making them in such a way that they are ultra hard by US standards. I know people with who I am close and they went to US and they have told me that it is like this. What is possible since even to me that I am kinda the brainiac it often seems that questions in my local quizzes are perhaps too hard on average. Also I saw some memes and through "Nah, here they wouldn't ask you something so easy". Plus on top of that I seem to have much more TV shows that are just honest conversations about the social problems or some specific social group. On top of that there seem to be much less of celebrity hysteria and thus my local celebrities can walk freely around. I even met some top politicians in local stores. What is because whole social climate is much more relaxed and less drama based. From where you should start building all of this in the US I am not certain, but I am pretty certain that it can be done if you try hard enough. In my book many of your paradigms are simply wrong or outdated and that has to change. So it is best that people simply see more alternatives to the life as they know it.

 

[Virtual ghost]

It's a noble sentiment, but I think it would fail to find traction. The problem is that producing such a source would take time and effort. That means it would cost money. And without a large audience, who is going to invest the time and energy?

Yeah that is exactly why I asked in the original post "Why Democratic party as a whole doesn't get involved in this?". What should really help with all of this.
If anything this should create some kind of a standardization regarding the base and thus it would be easier to speak with more unified voice. What in elections can really matter.

I mean all I want is that more people move away from total crap and thus that all political debates in US become much more "mature and factual".

 

[Virtual ghost]

Return of killer smog? Experts warn of potentially deadly NYC haze

 

[ceecee]

Historians sometimes describe the Thirty Years' War as the "arch-catastrophe of Central Europe".

The introduction of the printing press accelerated the spread of new ideas, causing greater social division, the loss of the power monopoly of the Catholic church, enabled the spread and sucess of protestantism and thus eventually contributed to the Thirty Years' War.

Not sure if that means anything to modern day Americans, but in some parts of my country 2/3 of the population died in that conflict which involved some fifteen countries. Overall about 40% of the population of the Holy Roman Empire died in that war. It is hard to overstate what a watershed event that was.

I do not want that to happen again and I do not want to live in a world that never knew the printing press*





*Referring to moveable type and the possibility for a mass production of books, pamphlets and newspapers as introduced by Johannes Gutenberg. I am aware that the earlier printing press was a Chinese invention.

There has never been war here since The Civil War and literally half the country thinks the side that lost, won or would like very much to have a do over. War is glorified, revered, glossy on the big screen, in full color, made by the US military (every movie on this topic has to get their ok). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military–entertainment_complex

Much of the US has no idea who invented movable type, would not care to know and would likely call you a liar if you told them the Chinese invented the first ones. Same as they invented paper, gunpowder, the compass, silk, tea production and the list goes on and on. This is because we have long lived in a country that has never put education front and center where it belongs. Hence the embrace of anti-education and expertise.

The US is being sold for parts to venture capitalists, Saudi Arabia and every semi-retarded tech bro that get their dicks sucked by right and centrist politicians because those lobbies pay the most. And they have never heard of the Thirty Years War.

 

[The Cat]