Random Politics Thread

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

It is interesting to me how people might view someone on the left spectrum who occasionally interacts with right-wing people, or maybe recognizing that some concerns conservative people might be legitimate.

In some cases, this is considered "open-minded" or "pragmatic". In other cases, this means that you are apparently secretly one of them and just pretending to be on the left and probably secretly have racist or misogynist views.

It is interesting to pay attention to which judgments are applied where. It seems to me that you can compromise on things like abortion rights, government regulation of the economy, social safety nets, police spending, government surveillance, even unjustified invasions of sovereign nations and this is fine. What isn't fine is when you say that "you know what, you're right, it does suck that there are no jobs where you are out in the country and everything is in a state of disrepair". Because apparently everyone who doesn't live in a city is an irredeemable bigot.

In general it seems that compromising and watering down of policy and issues is a-ok. What is not ok is having empathy for other human beings and trying to understand (actually understand) why they might think this even if you do not agree. I'll also note that understanding where someone is coming from does not mean you have to think that person is a good person, or like them, or want to associate them. You can understand why someone thinks something and still think they are a shitty person for thinking that. For me it's a case-by-case basis. I see some people who vote for right-wing policies as good people who happen to be extremely misguided. Others, not so much.

 

[ceecee]

It is interesting to me how people might view someone on the left spectrum who occasionally interacts with right-wing people, or maybe recognizing that some concerns conservative people might be legitimate.

In some cases, this is considered "open-minded" or "pragmatic". In other cases, this means that you are apparently secretly one of them and just pretending to be on the left and probably secretly have racist or misogynist views.

It is interesting to pay attention to which judgments are applied where. It seems to me that you can compromise on things like abortion rights, government regulation of the economy, social safety nets, police spending, government surveillance, even unjustified invasions of sovereign nations and this is fine. What isn't fine is when you say that "you know what, you're right, it does suck that there are no jobs where you are out in the country and everything is in a state of disrepair". Because apparently everyone who doesn't live in a city is an irredeemable bigot.

In general it seems that compromising and watering down of policy and issues is a-ok. What is not ok is having empathy for other human beings and trying to understand (actually understand) why they might think this even if you do not agree. I'll also note that understanding where someone is coming from does not mean you have to think that person is a good person, or like them, or want to associate them. You can understand why someone thinks something and still think they are a shitty person for thinking that. For me it's a case-by-case basis. I see some people who vote for right-wing policies as good people who happen to be extremely misguided. Others, not so much.

There are so many people that need to read the Paradox of Tolerance.

But what the GOP/Republicans/right wingers/conservatives is selling is some type of American fascism. It's close to what the Italians did (the Nazis imported this, not the other way around). It's not something that requires a nuanced discussion as the right has been extremely clear on their accelerationism and desire for a far more authoritarian march.

CPAC (the Conservative Political Action Conference) is in Budapest Hungary at the invitation of Prime Minister Viktor Orban. The language he is using and conservatives in the US are using is straight out of 1930's Europe.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-05-19/orban-tells-cpac-conservatives-in-europe-u-s-must-align-troops-for-2024-votes

If you support this, vote for this and believe this is what freedom and patriotism looks like, nah, I'm not taking any of it on a case by case basis.

 

[The Cat]

The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
   Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
   
   
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
   Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
   
   
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
   The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
   
   
4. Supremacy of the Military
   Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
   
   
5. Rampant Sexism
   The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
   
   
6. Controlled Mass Media
   Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
   
   
7. Obsession with National Security
   Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
   
   
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
   Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
   
   
9. Corporate Power is Protected
   The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
   
   
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
    Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .
    
    
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
    Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
    
    
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
    Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
    
    
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
    Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
    
    
14. Fraudulent Elections
    Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

*Political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt recently wrote an article about fascism ("Fascism Anyone?," Free Inquiry, Spring 2003, page 20). Studying the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile), Dr. Britt found they all had 14 elements in common. He calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism. The excerpt is in accordance with the magazine's policy.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

There are so many people that need to read the Paradox of Tolerance.

But what the GOP/Republicans/right wingers/conservatives is selling is some type of American fascism. It's close to what the Italians did (the Nazis imported this, not the other way around). It's not something that requires a nuanced discussion as the right has been extremely clear on their accelerationism and desire for a far more authoritarian march.

CPAC (the Conservative Political Action Conference) is in Budapest Hungary at the invitation of Prime Minister Viktor Orban. The language he is using and conservatives in the US are using is straight out of 1930's Europe.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-05-19/orban-tells-cpac-conservatives-in-europe-u-s-must-align-troops-for-2024-votes

If you support this, vote for this and believe this is what freedom and patriotism looks like, nah, I'm not taking any of it on a case by case basis.

After much reflection over the weekend, I have come to the conclusion that you are right.

I've participated in spaces (both online and in real life) that have rules about racism, misogyny, homophobia, etc. and they were generally just better places to have discussions in. I felt the atmosphere was more intellectually stimulating and the social bonds much stronger than spaces that did not have those rules.

The chief thing that makes it work, though, are the individuals involved. We need individuals to take part who are not bad faith actors, who won't go around gaming the system to maintain social dominance and be "in charge".

Ultimately I hate when spaces become not about the ideas or relationships or personal expression but instead are about jockeying for power. I find it somewhat tedious and stifling when every single conversation is a power play. I feel this way about the forum now (which is not your fault, nor the fault of the mods for that matter). The dynamics when examined underneath the surface resemble that of a shitty reality TV show and have been like that for quite some time. It seems to me every time someone interesting comes along or an interesting discussion starts to happen there are certain people who have decided this cannot be allowed to continue (they aren't mods, I will emphasize). I would like it to be different.

Frankly, at this point, I have had enough of it, especially when considered with regards to the current political climate. I don't find anything interesting or illuminating about reading the same old bullshit, really. I think this is in part because it's not really about the idea; it's not actually something intellectually decided upon through observation, research, introspection, analysis, trial and error, experimentation, experience, or logical deduction. No, in truth, it's all about their feelings.

This fact explains why the right is so resistant to reality, because ultimately what takes primacy for them is their own feelings. This is ironic, given that something conservatives often promote is the idea that their positions are more "rational" than the alternative. We can see this with Ben Shapiro's twerpy "facts don't care about your feelings" refrain. But I remember the "illuminating" discussion I had with Covid-19 with a conservative member of the forum last week, and it seems to me more that conservative feelings don't care about facts.

You seem to have more experience in these matters and having real-life conversations with people of different viewpoints. Thinking back for as long as I've known you, it also seems to me that your read on a situation frequently seems to be the correct one. Given all this, I am inclined to trust you, and will defer to your judgement in this matter. Unlike some, I have the humility to admit that perhaps I am not the only who can have good ideas people should listen to.

 

[Virtual ghost]

There are so many people that need to read the Paradox of Tolerance.

But what the GOP/Republicans/right wingers/conservatives is selling is some type of American fascism. It's close to what the Italians did (the Nazis imported this, not the other way around). It's not something that requires a nuanced discussion as the right has been extremely clear on their accelerationism and desire for a far more authoritarian march.

CPAC (the Conservative Political Action Conference) is in Budapest Hungary at the invitation of Prime Minister Viktor Orban. The language he is using and conservatives in the US are using is straight out of 1930's Europe.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-05-19/orban-tells-cpac-conservatives-in-europe-u-s-must-align-troops-for-2024-votes

If you support this, vote for this and believe this is what freedom and patriotism looks like, nah, I'm not taking any of it on a case by case basis.

To be honest I kinda struggle with terminology here. Since for me the problem here isn't really the right on itself but a far right. However in US all right is being transferred into the far right. Especially since the political system requires that there are only 2 options on the table. What crates the illusion that this is right instead of far right. In other words Orban was thrown out of mainstream right wing block in Europe because he went too far (and became far right). I my opinion the main difference between normal right and far right is intellectual strength and honesty. However since US never really solved it's anarcho-colonial past it was always very fertile ground for inhumane ideologies that lead to pointless suffering. Especially since by law of the land every opinion is equally valid, what leads to the Paradox of tolerance. 200 years ago there wasn't much on what you could agree or disagree. However today that isn't really the case since the times are too complex and turbulent, therefore some debates need to be closed to free the time and energy. The society of infinite individualism and diversity isn't really possible or at least stable in the modern reality.


In other words the only real way out of this is to figure out how to turn American right into normal right. Across the Atlantic this is called Center right position and it is the most popular block in the offering (out of 7 of them). The block is evidently Conservative in the terms of flags, family values, fiscal responsibility, law and order, borders. However they give you socialized medicine since that CONSERVES people's health, the green new deal CONSERVES the environment, while genuine and affordable education through competency evidently help create society wide stability and certainty (what are right wing values in the end). Therefore the only real way out of this is figuring out how to transform American right into the center right of this kind. I mean these people you are talking about will never really stop being right wing (and that is ok). However attempts have to me made that they are up to the date right wing. Since that is the key problem here, not that they are right wing in general. In other words when this is achieved the US will pretty quickly fix itself. What is because Windows 98 just wouldn't do it in 2022, no matter how hard you try.


At least those are my 2 cents on the issue.

 

[The Cat]

US climate activist dies after setting himself on fire outside supreme court​

 

[Red Herring]

There's a public tv chanel that reruns exactly 20 year old news reels every night shortly before midnight. So today was the news from May 23rd 2002. The main news was George W. Bush visiting German parliament. Germany (like most of Europe) was against the war in Iraq and there were protests but Bush stressed communality and the fight of the "free world" against terrorism. He also stressed good relationships with Russia and how Russia and NATO were getting closer and friendlier by the day as he visited Russia later that day. It's weird to watch that 20 years later.

 

[Virtual ghost]

There's a public tv chanel that reruns exactly 20 year old news reels every night shortly before midnight. So today was the news from May 23rd 2002. The main news was George W. Bush visiting German parliament. Germany (like most of Europe) was against the war in Iraq and there were protests but Bush stressed communality and the fight of the "free world" against terrorism. He also stressed good relationships with Russia and how Russia and NATO were getting closer and friendlier by the day as he visited Russia later that day. It's weird to watch that 20 years later.

Well, back then the picture of the world looked quite differently and everyone though that great global struggles were over and that we will have global stability. What allowed the focus on smaller problems like various radical groups and random regimes. But how that ended we all know.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I wanted to hang out with you in middle school. You decided you were too cool to be friends with me anymore. It's not my fault.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Well... I think Kullervo is a guy I knew in elementary school and middle school. In elementary school we were friends but in middle school we grew apart and he decided he was too cool to be seen with me. He was really funny and smart. Now he just seems to work at a gym.

I think he became a Nazi and wonders why I want to a fancy school and did relatively well. But I'm not the reason his life turned out the way it did. I don't think it's fair or right.

I think public school should be better and you shouldn't need to have a lot of money to get a good start in life.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Big school shooting again. 15 dead in Texas.

 

[The Cat]

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is rapidly fadin'
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'

 

[The Cat]

Big school shooting again. 15 dead in Texas.

count's gone up to 21 including 18 kids...

 

[Virtual ghost]

World’s cartoonists on this week’s events

 

[The Cat]

 

[The Cat]

 

[Virtual ghost]

What Went Down During The May 24 Primary Elections


Plus the results.