Random Politics Thread

[Virtual ghost]

You are preaching to the choir. I have been for a common foreign and defense policy, heck, even for a form of United States of Europe, since the 1990s. Liberal, secular, multicultural, multiethnic and welcoming but firmly rooted in its humanistic values, with a mixed economy and reliable welfare state, selfsufficient in its energy supply, intelligence work and military defense, the center of publically supported cutting edge science and research, economic powerhouse of the global green new deal and supplying the world with renewable and sustainable technology...


... Oh well, a girl can dream. Right?

In a way it is ironic, Donald Trump with it's policies will give EU what it wants for decades. It is just that it never dared to take it, it was just too geopolitically inconvenient. However since USA fell into serious turbulence it is time for EU to grow up. Or rather to admit to itself that is grown up and competent factor.



On the other hand United states of Europe is actually the real name of EU. Since in truly many ways EU is the copy of USA, although more modern copy. The basic goal of progress, freedom and fair society is in many ways taken from American founding fathers and mixed with various European traditions. Plus as the US was spreading west over the continent with time that is how EU is spreading East over time (and both eventually came to the Russian border in the end).



However everything you mentioned is already basically a reality in a way. There is much to be be done and certain trends really need to be fixed but that list is in a way what we already have at this point. We are objectively one of 3 main powers of the world even if most of our people don't pay too much attention to this. I have met none Europeans that claim that living here is almost cheating when it comes to having a livable happy life. What in way is true when you watch through what various people on other continents are going through to succeed. We really have a blessing in healthcare, education and general safety, even in poorer members which are still clearly above worlds average in quality of life.



The only place where I perhaps don't agree with you is that I am not really interested in accepting those that can't or wouldn't accept the basic principles of the union (regardless of skin color). Some things need to be defended without too much flexibility.

 

[Red Herring]

In a way it is ironic, Donald Trump with it's policies will give EU what it wants for decades. It is just that it never dared to take it, it was just too geopolitically inconvenient. However since USA fell into serious turbulence it is time for EU to grow up. Or rather to admit to itself that is grown up and competent factor.



On the other hand United states of Europe is actually the real name of EU. Since in truly many ways EU is the copy of USA, although more modern copy. The basic goal of progress, freedom and fair society is in many ways taken from American founding fathers and mixed with various European traditions. Plus as the US was spreading west over the continent with time that is how EU is spreading East over time (and both eventually came to the Russian border in the end).



However everything you mentioned is already basically a reality in a way. There is much to be be done and certain trends really need to be fixed but that list is in a way what we already have at this point. We are objectively one of 3 main powers of the world even if most of our people don't pay too much attention to this. I have met none Europeans that claim that living here is almost cheating when it comes to having a livable happy life. What in way is true when you watch through what various people on other continents are going through to succeed. We really have a blessing in healthcare, education and general safety, even in poorer members which are still clearly above worlds average in quality of life.



The only place where I perhaps don't agree with you is that I am not really interested in accepting those that can't or wouldn't accept the basic principles of the union (regardless of skin color). Some things need to be defended without too much flexibility.

I don't remember ever reading such an optiistic, positive post of yours before!

There is a reason why I said "multicultural, multiethnic and welcoming but firmly rooted in its humanistic values". I highly value the accomplishments of the enlightenment and the secular liberal values that modern Europe is founded on. I don't care about the ethnic roots of those wanting to join and live according to those values. In fact, some fresh blood could be very useful.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I don't remember ever reading such an optiistic, positive post of yours before!

There is a reason why I said "multicultural, multiethnic and welcoming but firmly rooted in its humanistic values". I highly value the accomplishments of the enlightenment and the secular liberal values that modern Europe is founded on. I don't care about the ethnic roots of those wanting to join and live according to those values. In fact, some fresh blood could be very useful.

Well, that is because I am the person that is heavily focused on problems. The stuff that are going right usually don't interest me that much, if everything works I am not really needed there. However I am not really as dark as I seem at first impression.




I know what you said, but I added that continuation on purpose. Especially since I am perhaps more judgemental about keeping things afloat than you. However I will dare to say there is one hidden danger in accepting some "new blood" about which typical west European doesn't think much. If you have a mixed community in the terms of progressive/educated people and "everyone else" by opening the doors you will suck out the progressive group that wants to "see the world", "try something new" or whatever. However with this you are leaving everyone else in that society alone and you no longer have the leverage with which you will advance them. Plus lack of progressive or intellectual minds will probably mean bad/uncompetitive economy as well as hate of those that took "the competent". I have said this before but this is really worth of saying it again since this is perhaps the main threat to the EU. At least in internal matters. I have seen something that now when my country has the presidency that they will assemble some limited financial program for those areas that are providing/exporting experts. Because on the contrary you have to either abolish internal movement in EU or abolish "free college". Therefore this should be temporary fix until the union balances itself better on the inside, what for the most part even isn't that far away. Especially if we don't count the Balkans. In each society educated people are Trojan horse of progress and therefore it can be wise to just leave them where they are.

 

[ceecee]

Tomorrow has a strong wheels-coming-off-the-wagon vibe.

 

[Stigmata]

Tomorrow has a strong wheels-coming-off-the-wagon vibe.

 

[ceecee]

 

[Virtual ghost]

Tomorrow has a strong wheels-coming-off-the-wagon vibe.

Well, tomorrow is your turn. Which could easily turn to "Be or not be" moment.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Tomorrow has a strong wheels-coming-off-the-wagon vibe.

Well, I think the good news is that I think we are starting to build a political movement that will not rest on its laurels if Biden does defeat Trump in November (which given all these virus shenanigans, is certainly possible). Ultimately, this is all bigger than Sanders, and it will survive him. I'm overjoyed that political consciousness of the left in this country has evolved to something beyond "we just need to elect Democrats, and everything will be fine". People do learn after all, I suppose.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

The older people who support those centrist, neoliberal candidates in large numbers are rapidly dying off. The younger people who are enthusiastic about more progressive candidates but too busy to vote in actual primaries will grow older and likely participate more in the primary process. Of course the rub is that many of those voters will move to the center as they get older, as it seems natural for a lot of people to become slightly more conservative with age. But I think on the other hand the chickens are coming home to roost when it comes to problems like climate change that are becoming increasingly difficult to write off or dismiss as "normal weather patterns", so even the centrists in government will eventually be forced to adopt more effective measures rather than the same bandaid measures and lip service they'd previously offered. I just worry that no matter what, it will all be too little, too late.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

The older people who support those centrist, neoliberal candidates in large numbers are rapidly dying off. The younger people who are enthusiastic about more progressive candidates but too busy to vote in actual primaries will grow older and likely participate more in the primary process. Of course the rub is that many of those voters will move to the center as they get older, as it seems natural for a lot of people to become slightly more conservative with age. But I think on the other hand the chickens are coming home to roost when it comes to problems like climate change that are becoming increasingly difficult to write off or dismiss as "normal weather patterns", so even the centrists in government will eventually be forced to adopt more effective measures rather than the same bandaid measures and lip service they'd previously offered. I just worry that no matter what, it will all be too little, too late.

I don't even know if people "becoming more conservative with age" isn't so much because they change, but because the world around them changes. All baby boomers weren't hippies.

To paraphrase Grandpa Simpson, I think it may be a case of "I used to be with it, but then they changed what it it was. Now what's new seems weird and scary."

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I don't even know if people "becoming more conservative with age" isn't so much because they change, but because the world around them changes. All baby boomers weren't hippies.

To paraphrase Grandpa Simpson, I think it may be a case of "I used to be with it, but then they changed what it it was. Now what's new seems weird and scary."

You might have a point. I mean I supported gay marriage back when that was considered radical even by many democrats. But it's become a fairly mainstream position to take now and more and more moderates and even an occasional conservative is on board with it. I never really changed my views here, the world around me changed.

Yesterday's liberal is tomorrow's conservative

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

You might have a point. I mean I supported gay marriage back when that was considered radical even by many democrats. But it's become a fairly mainstream position to take now and more and more moderates and even an occasional conservative is on board with it. I never really changed my views here, the world around me changed.

Yesterday's liberal is tomorrow's conservative

I'm inclined to think it really is a frame of reference situation, like how it looks like the sun is orbiting around us, but we know that not to be the case.

 

[Jaguar]

GOP Congresswoman Receives 'Fascist Pig' Note, Newspaper Editorial Board Tells Her It's a Taste of Trump's Own Medicine

And with that, I'm off to get some coffee. Laughing.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

FYI [MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION] I just accepted a job offer. The downside is that I can't force you to pay for my health insurance premiums anymore.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

you called Jesse Jackson and Cornel West idiots. Weak

 

[anticlimatic]

FYI [MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION] I just accepted a job offer. The downside is that I can't force you to pay for my health insurance premiums anymore.

Well done, mate. Proud of ya, and good luck!

Careful though...accepting work is a slippery slope to conservativism

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Anyone remember when conservatives were actually interested in conservationism?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Well done, mate. Proud of ya, and good luck!

Thanks.

Careful though...accepting work is a slippery slope to conservativism

LOL. Not worried about that.

 

[Jaguar]

The data is 45 and above, asshole. Not 65. No wonder you're losing. You lie.

 

[anticlimatic]

Anyone remember when conservatives were actually interested in conservationism?

Slash it! Slash it! Slash it!

Lot of mixed feelings here. On the one hand, my girlfriend is a huge Bernie bro, and I hate to see her disappointed. On the other hand people like cece are also Bernie bro's and I love seeing them disappointed. If Bernie won the dem nom celebration would last until he got crushed by trump in November which might be even more devastating. On the one hand his chances of beating trump are way less than Biden's, but on the other hand even the chance that he might win the presidency at this point in my life (working/saving years) is horrifying.