Random Politics Thread

[The Cat]

If it were true, do you think anybody would do anything about it?

Is there evidence for it beyond weird comments from Trump and other people?

Doesn't matter if there were. The pubs spent the last four years crying foul, and dems began assuring everyone that everything was copacetic, no way something could go wrong...So even in the likely event there were shenanigans...pick one of the four winds and spit into it.

Forget it Jake. It's Chinatown.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Maybe Trump just said some bullshit to make Democrats paranoid, so that they end up looking like they don't accept election results either. Couldn't that be possible?

 

[The Cat]

Is this going to be the equivalent of Loose Change where people keep derailing the conversation with this, and insist on debating something irrelevant? What people need to focus on is how to face what is coming, on how to prepare for that. This is a distraction that nobody would do anything about even if it were true.

Like, let's suppose this is true. Fine. What do we do? That's what we need to figure out here.

Dude, you been going on about old elections and all the ways you feel about it. Other people are gonna have salty feelings. Just because folks are talking online about hypotheticals, doesnt mean everyone's not getting their shit together for what's coming. So give us the same courtesy we've given you. Let us bitch and hypothesize for a while. We're gonna be just as fucked tomorrow as we are today, best to get it out of our systems now, so we can blow off steam and keep our heads in the game for the real work.

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah, I'm all along for that ^^.

People aren't robots and sometimes we just need to say things out loud so we can move on. it hasn't even been a week yet. While I'm not one to flip out publicly and make a huge scene, basically folks need to be given an opportunity to vent so they can clear their system and move on regardless of whether any practical gains can be made from it.

like, I have already had one friend I used to be close to posting dumb shit on Facebook about learning how to forgive and "loving your enemies" within three days after the election. Like, buddy, if that is helpful to you working through your bad feelings about this election, feel free -- but frankly a lot of people are really upset because they feel betrayed and they need time to vent. Telling them to try to love people who badly ended up dicking them over and/or the very people likely to victimize them after January is no thing to be posting right now. Give people time to grapple with it and vent how they are feeling. Considering he's a social worker, I found it to be one of the dumbest things I've ever seen him do or say.

yes, There were very likely shenanigans.
yes, Trump has repeatedly suggested/said dumb shit that ends up being true later on once the secrets are in the open.
But is there any evidence that would change anything?
All the evidence in the world didn't even get Trump behind bars.

Give people time to vent. Hell, give them a month or two. Trump isn't in office until the end of Jan. By then people need to have started figuring out how they will approach his new term and be getting their plans in place. It's better to vent and then be more mentally clear to take action than trying to bury all of it and still being derailed by it come next year.

 

[Stigmata]

Like, this could actually come out, and I'd expect people to do nothing about it. What's important would be to keep the show going.

The problem is, it’s a lose-lose for the country regardless. If the Democrats do nothing, the Republicans stole an election, paid no political cost for it, and have no incentive not to continue doing so going forward.

If the Democrats do call it out publicly and it ultimately turns out to be nothing, they ridiculed for being hypocrites and if/when we do have substantive voter fraud in an election going forward everyone dismisses it as nothing more than political posturing. Public trust in our election progress is irreparably harmed.

If they call it out publicly and there are indeed some shenanigans, civil unrest is bound to ensue. Not only that, no result of an election going forward will ever be considered legitimate on both sides of the aisle.

I’m not saying this is a stolen election, but there was definitely a knowable and quantifiable level of interference this election, both foreign and domestic: between several bomb threats being called in at heavy democratic leaning polling stations on Election Day, causing some voters to leave and not return, some ballot boxes in democratic areas of Washington and Oregon being targeted and destroyed, and the purging of voter rolls at both the state and federal (Supreme Court sanctioned) level. And that’s just the fuckery we know about.

 

[Totenkindly]

It's pretty impressive in a sad way that Kamala managed to actually lose the popular vote as well. (CA count is still only at 72% which is millions of votes, but based on the current percent balance, she's not going to gain enough to pass Trump.) The last time Dems lost the popular vote was in 2004. The last time before that was 1988.

This popular vote loss was similar to Kerry's loss in 2004 -- except Kerry actually won more EVs than Harris did. uggh.

 

[Totenkindly]

If they call it out publicly and there are indeed some shenanigans, civil unrest is bound to ensue. Not only that, no result of an election going forward will ever be considered legitimate on both sides of the aisle.

Side note, this is probably in part why Biden and Harris were backpedaling on the fascism accusations they had pressed during campaign season -- because they're trying to prevent another Jan 6 this time from the Dem side. If that would happen.

I’m not saying this is a stolen election, but there was definitely a knowable and quantifiable level of interference this election, both foreign and domestic: between several bomb threats being called in at heavy democratic leaning polling stations on Election Day, causing some voters to leave and not return, some ballot boxes in democratic areas of Washington and Oregon being targeted and destroyed, and the purging of voter rolls at both the state and federal (Supreme Court sanctioned) level. And that’s just the fuckery we know about.

Yup, that is all known -- and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to wonder what an impact Musk with his money and X and whatever else managed to do behind the scenes.

People have been so worried about Trump, but there's a number of bad actors who I think have been far more dangerous for democracy who are supporting him for their own gain.

 

[Stigmata]

Side note, this is probably in part why Biden and Harris were backpedaling on the fascism accusations they had pressed during campaign season -- because they're trying to prevent another Jan 6 this time from the Dem side. If that would happen.

You couldn’t get Democrats to storm a Hobby Lobby, much less the Capitol.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

If I never thought about old elections, I probably wouldn't care about the one that just happened.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I'd have been solely focused on my career/education or something like that. I wouldn't ask the wrong questions.

I probably would have voted, and then just shrugged it off.

 

[Stigmata]

People have been so worried about Trump, but there's a number of bad actors who I think have been far more dangerous for democracy who are supporting him for their own gain.

100%

Moreso than in 2016, where Trump was ultimately restrained by career Republicans with some degree of scruples, this time Trump’s campaign seems to have been co-opted by technocrat opportunists who see him as a means of crashing the system for some sort of crypto/real estate play.

If you remember, early in the 2024 election cycle it seemed like Trump had begun to wear his welcome out amongst the Republican base (remember all the “we loved his policies but he’s too divisive/were ready to go in a different direction”) talk, and how subpar his polling was among the GOP base during the primaries (we was still the front runner but there was a non-negligible Haley resistance vote), compared to even Biden among the Democrat base.

The new Technocrat presence has virtually nothing to do with their feelings about Trump the man, and more seeing him as an easy mark to get their hands on the levers of power.

Also, I wouldn’t be surprised that some of the big business election push for Trump despite several economists sounding alarms about the effects his policies will have, has to do with getting Lina Khan out as FTC chair.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Maybe the ability to reason is interfered with by intense emotional states. The idea I guess is to avoid stirring up those emotional states.

Yeah, that's key.

I wanted to use the word forensics. I find it funny that the word for debate team is the same word used for crime scene invinvestigation.

That is funny. I've never participated in actual debate (my memoery recall for specific details is abysmal), but I love reading about the rules because they can extend to everyday conversations and improve communication. Especially in regard to persuasion. Most of the approaches people take in trying to persuade others fail spectacularly (e.g. guilt, bullying, railroading, gaslighting, etc). Calmly appealing to reason is best. Even if it doesn't work immediately, it's a good way to plant seeds.

 

[LightSun]

This is another part of Trump's success. People are attracted to the surface-level aesthetics. This is something I don't know how to address, really. Our media won't change; they'll keep platforming people like Trump and Vance if it gives them good ratings. Perhaps we could have people consume something other than cable news, but the biggest competitor is social media, and that's not much better.

Going along with what you said, organizations who have journalistic integrity struggle to keep the lights on, because that's not what the people want. I have no answer for this problem, and I wish I did.

Thank you Julius. It is refreshing to find a person who is reason based. Julius we are in the minority.

The people who voted for Donald Trump are in the majority. They were seduced by Donald Trump. He says anything and everything.

So it is mob mentality akin to the Roman Colosseum. Things will never get better as long as a great majority watch the Kardashians.

 

[The Cat]

You couldn’t get Democrats to storm a Hobby Lobby, much less the Capitol.

They might start slap fighting each other though.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I hope we get to do this. It might be fun.

 

[The Cat]

America 2026...​

 

[SensEye]

I'm pretty sure the election (votes and vote counting wise) was 100% legit. The US electoral system is quite secure and well verified. Despite much hearsay and conspiracy theories, investigation after investigation finds no evidence of fraud by either party. That's the wrong rabbit hole to go down.

I'm starting to think voter turnout is also a red herring. As California ramps up their pony express riders and slowly manage to get their results in, numbers seem to be approaching 2020 levels. I think Trump is right back in the vicinity he was in 2020 (Trump is up to 75 million as of now) and Harris is at 72 million with probably a few million more to come her way.

It could be Democratic voters did not turn out quite to the level of 2020, but it's hard to say. It could be turnout was down a little across the board and the reality is former Dem supporters flipped to Trump. Or maybe Dems supporters did get a bit complacent as despite coin toss poll results as pretty much every pundit and celebrity on the left seemed confident of a Harris win. The message that I constantly heard was that Harris team was running a perfect campaign and doing a wonderful job on everything including turning out the vote. I guess not so much.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

The message that I constantly heard was that Harris team was running a perfect campaign and doing a wonderful job on everything including turning out the vote. I guess not so much.

They always say crap like that. Never believe them.

 

[Stigmata]

Far-right Israeli minister orders preparations for West Bank annexation

Remember when people said they couldn’t support “Genocide Joe”, and everyone said that despite how bad the Biden administration’s Israel policy was, Trump would be worse, but people still voted for Trump as a protest vote on the Gaza issue?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Far-right Israeli minister orders preparations for West Bank annexation

Remember when people said they couldn’t support “Genocide Joe”, and everyone said that despite how bad the Biden administration’s Israel policy was, Trump would be worse, but people still voted for Trump as a protest vote on the Gaza issue?

Those people were delusional.

These annexations are what they have wanted to do for a while. The concept of a "Greater Israel" is not new. October 7th just gave them the excuse. It's analogous to how they wanted to invade Iraq before Bush was even elected president. 9/11 provided the excuse.

There were 4 Labour representatives in the Knesset at the time of October 7th. Netanyahu had little opposition even before the attack.