Random political thought thread.

[Virtual ghost]

538 forecasts

Updated numbers and some new features.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Is this true ? Is she really this crazy ? (I suppose that is rhetorical question)

 

[The Cat]

 

[ceecee]

Here I kinda have to disagree, the more radical of them may share some things with Fascists but I just don't see it that way. These people seem to be way too individualistic and market focused to be fascists. As I said for me this is some kind of a anarchy-business-theological hybrid, that evidently has it's roots in the wild west. You can do xenophobia and various forms of bigotry without being a fascists. Since fascism is much more than just that.


While the fact that this mix can be very toxic and harmful for many people is something else. As I said for me this isn't Conservative since it conserves pretty much nothing except some vague old ideas.

On this we can agree. After all, the definition of conservative is an aversion to change or innovation.

 

[ceecee]

Is this true ? Is she really this crazy ? (I suppose that is rhetorical question)

Tudor Dixon? Yeah she is that crazy. All the Michigan GOP gubernatorial candidates spew some level of this crazy on this and many other topics.

 

[Virtual ghost]

On this we can agree. After all, the definition of conservative is an aversion to change or innovation.

But I don't really agree with this. Since this is American version of Conservatism and my starting point was that I just don't see that as genuine conservatism. Since it conserves little in physical domain. From people to environment or keeping economy working. For me conservatism doesn't exclude progress but it does so in pretty controlled fashion while trying to not lose your bottom line in all that. As I said cultural differences are a big thing, in various cultures "conservative" will have a different meaning. Since it seeks to conserve different things. This is exactly why I said that the only meaningful way out of all this is that GOP starts to evolve towards EPP (Europeans peoples party). The main right wing force in EU. Which even if it is evidently to the right, doesn't deny climate change and is doing the green new deal, they give you free college, socialized medicine, they chase anti-vax crowd as a public threat and with right wing mentality they are perhaps even better in that than the left, they give you abortion right until certain point. They will provide stimulus/help during lockdowns, they may help with providing hosing ... etc.. The left still hates them over various details and practices but EPP recognizes the fact that we are in 21th century, while GOP doesn't. Since EPP is conservative in a sense that they are trying to keep the ship together and advance in stable fashion (even if there are some bad apples there). While in US conservatism is much more that the ship just stays at the port and that is the end of the story (since everything is perfect as it is). I mean judging by comments in US the EPP block is controversial for those that know something about it, since it doesn't fit into the US cultural stereotypes. Controlling borders, going to church, providing free college and chasing anti vax people is somehow a strange mix by US standards. While for EPP this is pretty standard every day life. Also the social market economy we were talking the other day is in the constitution of the EPP block. So in the end everything is in what you are actually trying to conserve.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Tudor Dixon? Yeah she is that crazy. All the Michigan GOP gubernatorial candidates spew some level of this crazy on this and many other topics.

It is no wonder the race is almost safe blue in the polls. Since these are really some morbid statements that would make pretty sadistic policies in the end.

 

[The Cat]

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Here I kinda have to disagree, the more radical of them may share some things with Fascists but I just don't see it that way. These people seem to be way too individualistic and market focused to be fascists. As I said for me this is some kind of a anarchy-business-theological hybrid, that evidently has it's roots in the wild west. You can do xenophobia and various forms of bigotry without being a fascists. Since fascism is much more than just that.


While the fact that this mix can be very toxic and harmful for many people is something else. As I said for me this isn't Conservative since it conserves pretty much nothing except some vague old ideas.

I don't think American fascism necessarily has to look identical to European fascism. Anyway a lot of them will throw out the worship of markets if a social issue gets involved; that is really more important to them. We've seen this recently in Florida. They support the government intervening in business if it's to assert a socially repressive agenda. That's fascism; they can't hide behind the libertarian label once they do this, and they have already started to cheer on this kind of thing.

Which supports what Ceecee is saying, and is in line with my belief that I've just been subject to a long string of gaslighting (since Kerry lost in 2004, I think) to try and convince me that American conservatism is something different from fascism. I don't see you as participating in that, just as you being an outsider trying to make sense of the system.

Americans that should know better but want to appear open-minded or enlightened, or just like hanging out with their buds on the other side for whatever reason, are a different story. I don't need any of their analysis of the political right in this country, or determination of who the good and bad conservatives are. The determination these people make of who the good and bad conservatives are is mostly just determined by whether or not they went to college.... if the conservative went to college and can talk like a college educated person, they are good! They support the exact same policies and are actually be much better at making cases for them, which I would think would make them bigger threats, but hey, at least they don't talk like a redneck or mouthbreathing troll.

 

[The Cat]

irony incarnate is the right leaning redneck. Such a strange conflagration of cross purposes towards ones own self interest. A tragic side effect of generations of romanticizing loss and feudin' mentality. The names have changed but the Hatfields vs the McCoys feud on. children raised to kick down by parents who kicked down because their parents kicked down because their parents kicked down, and so on. -_-

 

[Virtual ghost]

I don't think American fascism necessarily has to look identical to European fascism. Anyway a lot of them will throw out the worship of markets if a social issue gets involved; that is really more important to them. We've seen this recently in Florida. They support the government intervening in business if it's to assert a socially repressive agenda. That's fascism; they can't hide behind the libertarian label once they do this, and they have already started to cheer on this kind of thing.

Which supports what Ceecee is saying, and is in line with my belief that I've just been subject to a long string of gaslighting since 2003 or 4 to try and convince me that American conservatism is something different from fascism. I don't see you as participating in that, just as you being an outsider trying to make sense of the system.

Americans that should know better but want to appear open-minded or enlightened, or just like hanging out with their buds on the other side for whatever reason, are a different story. I don't need any of their analysis of the political right in this country, or determination of who the good and bad conservatives are. The determination these people make of who the good and bad conservatives are is mostly just determined by whether or not they went to college.... if the conservative went to college and can talk like a college educated person, they are good! They support the exact same policies and are actually be much better at making cases for them, which I would think would make them bigger threats, but hey, at least they don't talk like a redneck or mouthbreathing troll.

I never said that this is good. But for the most part I don't think that Fascism is the right word there. I mean my argument is based purely on the matter of definitions. Especially since Americans have learned to throw around words like Nazi or Communists without fully grasping the details of both concepts.

 

[The Cat]

I never said that this is good. But for the most part I don't think that Fascism is the right word there. I mean my argument is based purely on the matter of definitions. Especially since Americans have learned to throw around words like Nazi or Communists without fully grasping the details of both concepts.

We do love our buzz words. Studies show that 9/10 Americans respond positively to advertising. It's sort of how we take bigh complicated boring droney things like politics and infuse them with sports sparkle shinies our marketing department would like us to call "Zazz". We're also big on Slogans. You would not believe the things we'll get behind if it's a catchy slogan. And if you can fit it on a hat? forget about it, shut up and take our democracy. We can always buy it back later right?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I never said that this is good. But for the most part I don't think that Fascism is the right word there. I mean my argument is based purely on the matter of definitions. Especially since Americans have learned to throw around words like Nazi or Communists without fully grasping the details of both concepts.

I just think fascism looks a little different depending on the context. I get what you are saying, though. I just am not sure it's an important distinction to make.

 

[The Cat]

I just think fascism looks a little different depending on the context.

Regardless of the look, it should never be in fashion.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I just think fascism looks a little different depending on the context. I get what you are saying, though. I just am not sure it's an important distinction to make.

You are right that the categories and labels aren't the top problem here. The top question is how to quiet down all this "toxic passion".

 

[The Cat]

You are right that the categories and labels aren't the top problem here. The top question is how to quiet down all this "toxic passion".

make it less profitable to corporate interests?

 

[Virtual ghost]

make it less profitable to corporate interests?

That is ok, but that isn't enough. Wages and standard of leaving has to increase. There needs to be better education based on critical thinking and that applies on the news as well.
There needs to be a movement that will try to reduce people's time of looking at the screen. While allowing them to work on fixing their communities. Which are a mess exactly since people stare at the screen too much and they are getting paranoid due to that. Healthcare need some serious reforms so that the topic makes people less paranoid regarding that topic. Many need to get off whatever they are on, since they should think more straight than they are ..... etc. Lowering down of social temperature will require much more than just some simplistic measures. Since that requires removing what caused it in the first place. I know this is ambitious but this has to go in multiple directions in order to cover the whole problem.

 

[The Cat]

Really want to thank a veteran for their service? Stop voting Republican.

 

[The Cat]

SESTA-FOSTA is about to get worse...

This is the dystopia the 1970's warned you about.

 

[The Cat]

• Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
  Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
  
  
• Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
  The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
• Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
  Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
  
  
• Obsession with Crime and Punishment
  Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
  
  
• Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
  Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.