Random political thought thread.

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Our first neckbeard Vice President

 

[Virtual ghost]

I am at least somewhat hopeful that since Trump boasted he would end the war, he will at least do that (one assumes by telling Ukraine, no more US aid, so cede your territory if you want peace). That does mean Putin has to agree to peace. If Putin rejects this and the war doesn't end Trump will lose face. If there is one thing one can rely on with Trump it is his own ego. He never likes to look bad.

I am assuming Trump doesn't go right off the deep end and stop caring what anyone thinks once he is POTUS again. If he does, all sorts of problems will ensue. Also, the one thing Russia has shown with this Ukraine invasion is how weak they are. This isn't the old USSR we are dealing with. The EU can boost Ukraine alone as long as they are willing to man up and foot the bill. You probably have a would have a better guess than I at whether they are willing.

Germany has been sketchy from the get go on their level of support, the Conservatives in UK (at least under Johnson were pro Ukraine), the French left seem to be pro Ukraine, the French right not so much. Spain/Italy have their own issues and probably can't afford to help even if they are interested. I'm sure some of the smaller countries are pro Ukraine but maybe can't help much . Canada is a non-EU example, pro Ukraine in tone, but with no military equipment of note and socialist issues having higher budget priority.

The whole Trump plan seems to be that Europe supplies Ukraine as much as possible and that should be enough to hold what remained out of Russian Army (if peace can't be made directly). While US should go directly after China in Indo-Pacific. This is kinda why he could win since just about everyone in US knows that current global situation wouldn't have 100% pretty situation. The only "problem" is that there are a fair amount of people in Europe that are afraid that with this plan of full rearming of Europe the EU will truly become some sort of fourth reich. This is exactly why it was for so long preferable that US has large say in security of Europe (and that is gets market access in return). The same goes for the strong welfare state in Europe, that was designed to prevent unrest and large scale changes. What was all just so that old Europe never comes back. However in the current world as it is now that is simply unrealistic, the Europe will have to play some cards in quite old fashioned way. Especially since more and more voters actually demands it. The most individualistic options in political landscape are the ones that are suffering the largest loses. While many extra billions are already being invested in security based production.


This is exactly why European politician are already at the Republlican convention, to make sure that there is some kind of a transatlantic master plan in the case that Trump wins (what is fairly likely at this point). After all as politicians to the left of center are loosing power across Europe that only rises the chances that you will get some kind of transatlantic deal on the issue. Even if there is one catch in all of this, which is that if EU will fully stand on it's own feet it wouldn't rally need US tech or various other companies. Especially since it will need to put money into it's own economy to support it's own standing in it's feet. What basically means erasing of at least trillion or two in US GDP and exploding the deficit further. What in a sense is exactly of what some people are afraid of in this plan. Since that is basically the end of post WW2 dynamic in North Atlantic.



There are quite interesting times ahead, that is the only certainty in all this.

 

[Red Herring]

Are people on the American far-right not aware that they are pretty much the only people on this planet who think that the "original" nazis, the NSDAP, Hitler and his followers, were somehow leftists? It boggles the mind.

I mean, the European far-right will usually say: a) they weren't THAAAT bad and b) we differ from them in some important points, so you can totally trust us. But I can't remember any European rightwinger ever claiming that the nazis weren't far-right. That stuff only ever comes from Americans, as far as I am aware.

Are they not aware that communists and socialists were the first ones to be locked away and eventually killed?

Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest because ...

 

[Virtual ghost]

Are people on the American far-right not aware that they are pretty much the only people on this planet who think that the "original" nazis, the NSDAP, Hitler and his followers, were somehow leftists? It boggles the mind.

I mean, the European far-right will usually say: a) they weren't THAAAT bad and b) we differ from them in some important points, so you can totally trust us. But I can't remember any European rightwinger ever claiming that the nazis weren't far-right. That stuff only ever comes from Americans, as far as I am aware.

Are they not aware that communists and socialists were the first ones to be locked away and eventually killed?

Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest because ...

That is because Americans tend to judge things towards economy and the size of the government. The metric that just doesn't stand in Europe as well as most of the world. Therefore form that perspective it makes sense to call Hitler a leftist. Even if average European will cringe at that being done.

The trick is in definitions of the terms.

 

[Red Herring]

That is because Americans tend to judge things towards economy and the size of the government. The metric that just doesn't stand in Europe as well as most of the world. Therefore form that perspective it makes sense to call Hitler a leftist. Even if average European will cringe at that being done.

The trick is in definitions of the terms.

Well, the nazis made labor unions illegal in 1933, pretty much from the start.

Collaboration between classes rather than class struggle was a major selling point. At the same time, at least after 1929 donations from big industrialists were an important source of income for the party. German companies and entrepreneurs were embracing Hitler as their saviour from the left - businesses seldom refuse state intervention when they think it'll benefit them. And after the night of the long knifes in 1934 all remaining socialist elements were purged.

Using economic liberalism as the defining measure for left and right is, as you say, cringe.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Well, the nazis made labor unions illegal in 1933, pretty much from the start.

Collaboration between classes rather than class struggle was a major selling point. At the same time, at least after 1929 donations from big industrialists were an important source of income for the party. German companies and entrepreneurs were embracing Hitler as their saviour from the left - businesses seldom refuse state intervention when they think it'll benefit them. And after the night of the long knifes in 1934 all remaining socialist elements were purged.

Using economic liberalism as the defining measure for left and right is, as you say, cringe.

It doesn't matter that they were banned.


He made big and powerful government instead of the "wild west". Therefore he is just a variation of the left.
That seem to be their logic regardless of how much the two of us can find this to be "strange". This is simply different "metric system" and that is it.

 

[Virtual ghost]

It doesn't matter that they were banned.


He made big and powerful government instead of the "wild west". Therefore he is just a variation of the left.
That seem to be their logic regardless of how much the two of us can find this to be "strange". This is simply different "metric system" and that is it.

I mean you can even reverse the story. To average American it is absolutely none understandable how someone can be considered to be to the right of center and be for socialized medicine, free college, tolerance of gay people, for paid leave after pregnancy, for vaccines .... etc. To average American this doesn't make any sense, while in Europe this isn't all that strange combination. Therefore it is all in the definitions.



Similarly you and me also have our own differences in definitions despite living on the same continent (about which we never really talked about in detail). You openly like left wing S&D group based on what I have gathered. However never in my life I voted for my national S&D, since I think they are horrible party. Slamming EU in their Christmas message, spreading of anti-vax propaganda, introducing anti workers measure in similar way how it was done in Germany some time ago, calling Ukrainians attention whores, voting against Ukraine aid over and over, hugging Orban live on TV, insulting national minorities, talking about why Finland shouldn't be in NATO, corruption scandals ...etc etc.

To you S&D is great because you are judging it by your own local standards. While I am pretty sure that you wouldn't really vote for Croatian version of it if there is any other way. I am pretty sure our hosts from North America wouldn't either considering all choices. However my S&D never trully accepted the fall of Berlin wall and they are still fairly heavily living in the era before that (they are the party for people that feel that way). In a sense this party should have been thrown out of S&D togather with Fico, since the overlap is pretty large. Therefore it seems that now they are trying to mild all of this down due to very bad polling numbers and election results, but somehow this doesn't look as too genuine or inspiring. Therefore overall a man must be careful not to get carried by definitions and thus it has to look at the actual content.

 

[The Cat]

Are people on the American far-right not aware that they are pretty much the only people on this planet who think that the "original" nazis, the NSDAP, Hitler and his followers, were somehow leftists? It boggles the mind.

I mean, the European far-right will usually say: a) they weren't THAAAT bad and b) we differ from them in some important points, so you can totally trust us. But I can't remember any European rightwinger ever claiming that the nazis weren't far-right. That stuff only ever comes from Americans, as far as I am aware.

Are they not aware that communists and socialists were the first ones to be locked away and eventually killed?

Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest because ...

There is no practical difference between the man who cannot read and the man who refuses to read.

 

[The Cat]

Folks have started talking about it on the scuttlebutt around the water cooler, folks were suggesting that the campaign was trying to get some sympathy votes by taking a shot at their own guy. Folks who used to wear their red hats are leaving them at home and the yards and yards of trump signs that littered lawns in 16, and 20, are very conspicuously absent this year.​

 

[ceecee]

What does what you were expecting look like? I'm genuinely curious, you seem to have a very specific vision, which you didn't see in 2022?

No need to apologize my perfectly perspicacious posting pal, I make no assumptions what you're into coating with sugar or not. I do sometimes wonder if you don't enjoy circling injured or dying animals in the wilderness while riding air currents, or if you're just a lot of fun at funeral parties, either way you seem like you have a lot of fun, and I can certainly enjoy a cynic with a sense of humor so to each his own.

I mean I kind of thought the numerous Jan6 criminals proudly voicing they didn't vote in 2020 (can you imagine committing political terrorism and NOT supporting the person you terrorized for??) and hadn't for years, to be a bit more telling than anything. Add the intense voter suppression in red areas and what do you get?

But I'm sure the more fascist GOP Mandate For Leadership, in addition to oppressive state legislatures, getting an avalanche of coverage is just going to get more people vote for Trump.

 

[Virtual ghost]

The entire party is standing in line behind trump.


House Dems plot last-ditch effort to delay Biden nomination

So maybe the dems should indeed do the same. After all this is battle of ideologies, not individuals. Either way the establishments will run the country. So cherry on the cake is still just a cherry in the end.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I mean I was hoping that the dems can sit at the table and find decent new candidate. Therefore if they can't do that without drama then it is better that things stay as they were originally planned.

 

[The Cat]

 

[The Cat]

The Ultra Maga ticket will no doubt win over all the moderate republicans and independents for sure.
Tucker pulling for Vance
Don Jr pulling for Vance
Lara Trump's husband..what's his name, pulling for Vance.

There must be a lot of walks through gardens in the Trump circles.

Eric. That's the name.​

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

People missing the point with this assassin kid, wondering about his social media activity and phone activity. He was apparently a history buff who liked to read, so hopefully the FBI is looking at his books for underlined/highlighted passages instead of trying to find a social media footprint.

He may not be as insane as people assume

 

[SensEye]

There's nothing about this kid on the surface that seems all that different from any of a million introverted nerds out there. However, he obviously had some sort of deep seated psychological problem that drove him to this act. Maybe a desperate need for attention that people just didn't recognize.

Either that or he really bought into the "Trump is the next evil dictator" rhetoric and tried to take him out. Sort of a "Would you kill Hitler?" time travel hypothesis question.

Him being dead, we'll probably never know.

 

[The Cat]

 

[ygolo]

Political pundits have deep analytical insights into spam enthusiasts.

 

[ygolo]

There's nothing about this kid on the surface that seems all that different from any of a million introverted nerds out there. However, he obviously had some sort of deep seated psychological problem that drove him to this act. Maybe a desperate need for attention that people just didn't recognize.

Either that or he really bought into the "Trump is the next evil dictator" rhetoric and tried to take him out. Sort of a "Would you kill Hitler?" time travel hypothesis question.

Him being dead, we'll probably never know.

I think the time travel to kill Hitler scenario buys too deeply into "the Great Man Theory" of history(or, in this case, horrible man). It is deeply counterfactual, but I think one of his second-in-command types becomes "Hitler" in that timeline.

Maybe the shooter in the Trump assassination attempt subscribed to this form of thinking, but if the shooter had killed Trump, my guess is he would have guaranteed President Kushner or Vance (or a different Trump) or something like that.

 

[SensEye]

Fair enough, but is this kid going to think that way? In any event, I just through that in there as a possibility for a disturbed individual. He might have thought Trump was horrible in his somewhat unbalanced mind and doing away with him might benefit society. That theory is a long shot though.

He was probably just disturbed/depressed to enough to be suicidal and wanted to commit a significant act before he died. Most of these types seem to prefer a mass shooting event these days, but this guy went for one target of significance. That would be my guess. Maybe investigators can dig up a clue or two, but I doubt we'll ever know what was in his head.