Opening Men Up Emotionally

[ZNP-TBA]

I mean, I see what you are getting at here but...

Women weren't even allowed to vote at the time of the Titanic. I mean, women had to actively fight for basic rights. So to say they had this massive power to influence male "policies" at this time?...meh...not buying it in the packaging you are selling it.

True, I wont deny that politically women were unfairly marginalized but practically and on a more primal(?)level it seemed that women were more prized as being less disposable than most men (aside from highly influential/wealthy men). Again, life or death scenario, not a voting booth, men are/were the first to be disposed of. Let's not forget WW1 which occurred in that time period basically sentencing millions of men to death while some women publically shamed men as cowards with white feathers who didn't enlist.

Example: A woman calling another woman a whore in order to publicly shame her, only because she got the attention of a man SHE wanted for herself. This is counter-productive on a large scale but on an individual one, it makes sense.

I thought public shaming was most severe when women would bash other women for getting pregnant out of wedlock?

I hesitate to get into this being female vs male but I had to make that distinction that human nature (males and females) will utilize any means necessary when competition, ambition and desire come into play. Even if it hurts them in the long run. It's the individual verses the collective.

I get what you mean but unfortunately modern feminism (sometimes called 'third wave') has really utilized this distinction and have help create the perception that men and women should be in some gender-based competition with each other (matriarchy vs. patriarchy) as if only one gender can truly succeed. Look at what some of these feminists do to women who don't exactly tow the line speaking of individuals versus the collective. More eroded now is the idea that men and women are natural allies and partners (morally equal but practically different) which can be seen as a positive thing.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

you should've.

but i was thinking more of like cracking the ribs open.

With, like, a giant nutcracker. that image is amusing. Like eating crab legs. Yeah, scrape those juicy emotions out and dip them in butter sauce.

 

[prplchknz]

With, like, a giant nutcracker. that image is amusing. Like eating crab legs. Yeah, scrape those juicy emotions out and dip them in butter sauce.

yes!

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

True, I wont deny that politically women were unfairly marginalized but practically and on a more primal(?)level it seemed that women were more prized as being less disposable than most men (aside from highly influential/wealthy men). Again, life or death scenario, not a voting booth, men are/were the first to be disposed of. Let's not forget WW1 which occurred in that time period basically sentencing millions of men to death while some women publically shamed men as cowards with white feathers who didn't enlist.



I thought public shaming was most severe when women would bash other women for getting pregnant out of wedlock?



I get what you mean but unfortunately modern feminism (sometimes called 'third wave') has really utilized this distinction and have help create the perception that men and women should be in some gender-based competition with each other (matriarchy vs. patriarchy) as if only one gender can truly succeed. Look at what some of these feminists do to women who don't exactly tow the line speaking of individuals versus the collective. More eroded now is the idea that men and women are natural allies and partners (morally equal but practically different) which can be seen as a positive thing.

If women were seen as less disposeable, they were also seen as less capable.

There is a sense that men's "disposeableness" is also a byproduct of their "usefulness". This is the other side of the coin and in a way, I see this more a product of alienating women.

If (collectively) men have said they are more intelligent, capable than women (look at advertising in the 60's) then it only seems reasonable to equate that with usefulness.

Therefore, men have had to do the unpleasant dirty work as well as all the good stuff that women (historically) were not privy too. Good comes with bad.

Similar to women being seen as props. A trophy. Seen and not heard.

So, I am sorry men have had their burdens to share.

I do however think men are swinging in a noose that they tied for themselves, collectively, a long time ago. To a large degree, these issues are only being brought to light because women have more freedom to choose and those walls are being broken down.

Therefore, men (rightly so) are gaining traction with their desires to live outside their boxes.

I think it is odd that in all throughout history, men who have had control of policy and law, that a group would not splinter off and vocalize this discontent until women paved that way. I think that is compelling.

Sorry if you disagree and I respect it, if you do. It is how I see it.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

This being a type forum, we should address this in that context.

because.. as a male thinker, I'm not particularly aware of my emotional state (not immediately--there is a long delay time between action and resultant emotions in many cases) nor do I normally feel a need to be opened up emotionally.

That said, I wonder if male feelers who might feel more inclined to be emotionally opened up feel shortchanged by a society that doesn't (generally speaking) care to hear about their feelings?
[MENTION=19719]Forever[/MENTION] [MENTION=23583]21lux[/MENTION] [MENTION=8584]SpankyMcFly[/MENTION] [MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION] and any other male feelers on the forum who I can't immediately remember..

 

[Qlip]

This being a type forum, we should address this in that context.

because.. as a male thinker, I'm not particularly aware of my emotional state (not immediately--there is a long delay time between action and resultant emotions in many cases) nor do I normally feel a need to be opened up emotionally.

That said, I wonder if male feelers who might feel more inclined to be emotionally opened up feel shortchanged by a society that doesn't (generally speaking) care to hear about their feelings?
[MENTION=19719]Forever[/MENTION] [MENTION=23583]21lux[/MENTION] [MENTION=8584]SpankyMcFly[/MENTION] [MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION] and any other male feelers on the forum who I can't immediately remember..

Feeler here and Fi-aux. I think that I definitely feel short changed, as in my natural expression is curbed and seen as an indictment on my effectiveness, especially in being in a technical career. But I tend to see it as less than the interaction between being a Male feeler in a Thinking oriented society and more of the result of being an individual in society in general. My empathy immediately goes out to the roles that have been cast on women, too, and on any person at all who has to fight unreasonably to find a comfortable place in the world because of default expectations that are projected onto them. Whether these pressures be society, family, religion, economics.

 

[Yama]

This being a type forum, we should address this in that context.

because.. as a male thinker, I'm not particularly aware of my emotional state (not immediately--there is a long delay time between action and resultant emotions in many cases) nor do I normally feel a need to be opened up emotionally.

That said, I wonder if male feelers who might feel more inclined to be emotionally opened up feel shortchanged by a society that doesn't (generally speaking) care to hear about their feelings?
[MENTION=19719]Forever[/MENTION] [MENTION=23583]21lux[/MENTION] [MENTION=8584]SpankyMcFly[/MENTION] [MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION] and any other male feelers on the forum who I can't immediately remember..

My experience is going to have an interesting plot twist, as someone who grew up with the privilege of being able to express emotion without being told that I'm not allowed to do that because of my gender. Having grown up with that, though, and then suddenly having people try to take that away--now that's a really bizarre experience.

I'm not very emotionally expressive, at least in person, because I feel really embarrassed and awkward when I do. However I do have a quite vast emotional range and emotional awareness is something I value. Being able to have the freedom to think about, understand, and express those emotions if I choose to is incredibly important to me. And now there are a few people I've encountered who think, "If you're really that emotional, then you must be wrong about being trans and maybe you're really a girl" because my personality "fits in" to quite a few feminine stereotypes, regardless of my gender. Which is laughable to me, but it's also extremely sad.

Because boys and men are dying younger because they can't feel free to express their emotions. When they're upset, society tells them to "be a man" and hold it in and now they're committing suicide because they can't take it anymore. And the gender revolution is only half finished--men need to be liberated from their oppressive gender stereotypes too, with the help of the women who are finally reclaiming their own independence and freedom from their own oppression. I hope I'll live long enough to see a world where people don't call being emotional "girly" or tell men that are crying that they're "being a pussy."

I've said it before on this forum and no one listens, but SERIOUSLY I recommend reading Michael Kimmel. He's a feminist who talks about issues like this, about masculinity and society. And he does it all while not being a woman-hating, anti-feminist douchebag. It's fantastic.

 

[ceecee]

That said, I wonder if male feelers who might feel more inclined to be emotionally opened up feel shortchanged by a society that doesn't (generally speaking) care to hear about their feelings?
[MENTION=19719]Forever[/MENTION] [MENTION=23583]21lux[/MENTION] [MENTION=8584]SpankyMcFly[/MENTION] [MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION] and any other male feelers on the forum who I can't immediately remember..

Oh I think they generally do. My ENFJ, it was very hard for him to open up in the beginning of our relationship. Not because he didn't want to (he did but he didn't know how) but because of everything we're discussing in this thread. I do think men have partially brought this on themselves - they often perpetuate the issues between themselves, free of women.

All I have ever done is say - I'm available to listen to you thoughtfully. Sometimes he doesn't take me up on that offer (especially when there is anger involved for him) but more often now, he does. It's a process but it's got to happen between men. They need to support each other if they want changes.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I do think the issues with men and emotionalism has made it harder for me to acknowledge, and even get treatment, for my own clinical depression. I've heard "stop whining" or "snap out of it" or just (my favorite) "be happy" a lot, and I have even encountered a similar attitude from a therapist I was seeing.

I don't blame women for that, but see it as part of a wider, sociological problem.

 

[EcK]

Good stuff. I think IQ is a lot to do with it too. It is the single strongest predictor of future success even more so than SES but I'll write more on that later. I think [MENTION=5643]EcK[/MENTION] will want to join in on IQ discussions though.

Nah I'm good. Thanks for the invite though

 

[Crabs]

This being a type forum, we should address this in that context.

because.. as a male thinker, I'm not particularly aware of my emotional state (not immediately--there is a long delay time between action and resultant emotions in many cases) nor do I normally feel a need to be opened up emotionally.

That said, I wonder if male feelers who might feel more inclined to be emotionally opened up feel shortchanged by a society that doesn't (generally speaking) care to hear about their feelings?
[MENTION=19719]Forever[/MENTION] [MENTION=23583]21lux[/MENTION] [MENTION=8584]SpankyMcFly[/MENTION] [MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION] and any other male feelers on the forum who I can't immediately remember..

I think men who have a higher degree of empathy are at a disadvantage because they're more inclined to be overly accommodating and cautious to a fault. A lot of women perceive this as submissive and weak. There is such a thing as being too nice when a person constantly sacrifices their own needs and desires to please other people. The "nice guy" thinks he is being the opposite of all those asshole men out there and will therefore win the affection of women, which is a fundamental misunderstanding of sexual polarity.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I think men who have a higher degree of empathy are at a disadvantage because they're more inclined to be overly accommodating and cautious to a fault. A lot of women perceive this as submissive and weak. There is such a thing as being too nice when a person constantly sacrifices their own needs and desires to please other people. The "nice guy" thinks he is being the opposite of all those asshole men out there and will therefore win the affection of women, which is a fundamental misunderstanding of sexual polarity.

So, assuming the statistics indicating that thinking men outnumber feeling men are correct, do you think this is a result of men with feeling preferences being seen as less desirable mates by a majority of women?

Conversely, is this why feeling women outnumber thinking women (again, assuming statistics are correct)? Just as feeling men might feel shortchanged, do thinking women feel shortchanged by a society that may favor more emotional expression in women? Are feeling women seen as more desirable mates by a majority of men?

All of this means we also have to assume that MBTI thinking/feeling preferences are hereditary.

I'd like to hear xxTx female members' opinions on this as well.

 

[Crabs]

So, assuming the statistics indicating that thinking men outnumber feeling men are correct, do you think this is a result of men with feeling preferences being seen as less desirable mates by a majority of women?

Conversely, is this why feeling women outnumber thinking women (again, assuming statistics are correct)? Just as feeling men might feel shortchanged, do thinking women feel shortchanged by a society that may favor more emotional expression in women? Are feeling women seen as more desirable mates by a majority of men?

All of this means we also have to assume that MBTI thinking/feeling preferences are hereditary.

I'd like to hear xxTx female members' opinions on this as well.

Many people are nurtured to adopt or forsake gender roles which may conflict with their natural inclinations so it's hard to say how accurate these statistics are when people are self-reporting how they view themselves.

I've heard a lot of Feeling men and Thinking women complain about the expectations placed on them; though I think more emphasis is placed on women's appearance than personality in the realm of sexuality, whereas, men are more often valued for expressions of masculine traits. Both are dehumanizing in their own way, but are inherently part of heterosexual attraction.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I think a lot people are nurtured to adopt gender roles that may conflict with their natural inclinations so it's hard to say how accurate these statistics are when people are self-reporting how they view themselves.

I've heard a lot Feeling men and Thinking women complain about the expectations placed on them; though I think more emphasis is placed on women's appearance than personality in the realm of sexuality, whereas, men are more often valued for expressions of masculinity or utility. Both are dehumanizing in their own way.

Right, and I generalized a lot. Feeling men =/= less masculine or feminine men (I imagine ESFP men, for instance, would more easily fit the "alpha" mold than, say, INTP men, depending on the individuals).

 

[Rambling]

^ This.

We teach boys that they should become self contained in their ability to deal with emotions like; fear, helplessness, loneliness, sadness, pain, distress and to self succor. We teach them stoicism, to suck it up. We teach them that their fear and pain are things that are best ignored. We teach them that their emotional and physical well being are just not as important as other things. What we're teaching that baby boy is all the things a man needs to know and feel and believe about himself if he's going go stand with a gun in front of a home intruder while his wife and kids hide. We're preparing him for the day he may have to storm a beach or charge a hill under enemy fire and we're preparing him to make a rational decision to resign himself to a sure death so that the women and children can survive. What we're really teaching them is to internalize their own disposability.

Surely women are immature if they don't learn to control their emotions in certain situations, too? I mean, I'm not disagreeing with your logic I'm interested in why you don't think this kind of emotional learning in order to love / serve /die for others is part of a woman's path in life as well?

 

[Rambling]

So, assuming the statistics indicating that thinking men outnumber feeling men are correct, do you think this is a result of men with feeling preferences being seen as less desirable mates by a majority of women?

Conversely, is this why feeling women outnumber thinking women (again, assuming statistics are correct)? Just as feeling men might feel shortchanged, do thinking women feel shortchanged by a society that may favor more emotional expression in women? Are feeling women seen as more desirable mates by a majority of men?

All of this means we also have to assume that MBTI thinking/feeling preferences are hereditary.

I'd like to hear xxTx female members' opinions on this as well.

INTJ female. Looking back at it I would have liked to have been more certain about the roles of feeling and thinking and able to find out more easily about both of those aspects of a potential mate, so to speak.

 

[SpankyMcFly]

Oh I think they generally do. My ENFJ, it was very hard for him to open up in the beginning of our relationship. Not because he didn't want to (he did but he didn't know how) but because of everything we're discussing in this thread. I do think men have partially brought this on themselves - they often perpetuate the issues between themselves, free of women.

All I have ever done is say - I'm available to listen to you thoughtfully. Sometimes he doesn't take me up on that offer (especially when there is anger involved for him) but more often now, he does. It's a process but it's got to happen between men. They need to support each other if they want changes.

^ This x10.836^12

 

[SpankyMcFly]

Surely women are immature if they don't learn to control their emotions in certain situations, too? I mean, I'm not disagreeing with your logic I'm interested in why you don't think this kind of emotional learning in order to love / serve /die for others is part of a woman's path in life as well?

I didn't mention women directly in an effort to stay on topic as per thread title and article in the OP as well as my own interests, which lie in exploring the topic from a male perspective as it pertains to males. I never meant to imply that my logic applied/did not apply to women, as a matter of fact I was quite specific that it pertains to boys and how we raise them.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

 

[prplchknz]

I do think the issues with men and emotionalism has made it harder for me to acknowledge, and even get treatment, for my own clinical depression. I've heard "stop whining" or "snap out of it" or just (my favorite) "be happy" a lot, and I have even encountered a similar attitude from a therapist I was seeing.

I don't blame women for that, but see it as part of a wider, sociological problem.

I'm a female and i get that same reaction as well, i think that's just people being insensitive and not wanting to realize that sometimes life just sucks and sometimes people just feel shitty, ie they don't understand because they've never been through it.