Opening Men Up Emotionally

[ZNP-TBA]

I don't want to derail this thread, but what is up with this MGTOW stuff?! Don't get me wrong, I understand what drives men to that kind of thinking (I sometimes slip into the female version of it) but just abandoning women-kind, and a man's own desires for relationship and family, is just dumb. It's really the perfect counter-extreme to the man-blaming, "strong + liberated" female victim mentality. The solution is always in the middle. It grieves me even in a personal way because I struggle to find good men and sometimes (as aforementioned) start to think I'm just better off leading a single life. It's the same deception that well-intentioned individuals of both genders experience, but it's a lie.

To be fair MGTOW doesn't completely swear off women but they avoid, at all costs, any kind of legal arrangement with women (marriage, children, taxes, domestic partnership, etc.) because MGTOWs believe the family courts are biased against males. I've met educated MGTOWs and I've met really dumb ones too. The educated ones say they are willing to become legally vulnerable again once the courts reform to be more indiscriminate when it comes to gender. The dumber ones believe there is something inherently untrustworthy in women and that they should be kept at arms length away from any commitment but will still gladly indulge in carnal pleasures. My gripe with MGTOWs is that, yes, the court system might be biased in general against men but its not always the case. There are a minority of cases where men get more sympathetic treatment from judges. Also, I think its possible to meet an honest and genuine woman so that even if the courts are biased you know she would never try to legally fuck you over. I think the fact that the option exists for women to drag their men through the blood stained gallows of family courts still makes MGTOWs avoidant of taking the risk.

 

[five sounds]

When something is conditioned like this from such an early age, the problem becomes that men and boys (in this case) don't develop the skills to recognize or process their own emotions. I think a lot of men run into this problem when suddenly someone is like, "hey open up. Tell me what you're feeling" and they're just like...shrug?

The skill of recognizing and processing one's own emotions has to come before their expression. So the problem is actually much deeper than a lot of people see it for. I don't know how to help someone on that journey, but it's one I've wanted all of my partners to embark on. Then comes the internalized misogyny that blocks men (and even women) from even desiring to express their emotions or to allow themselves to be 'emotional' for fear of being seen as less valid. The funny thing is that a fully formed, most valid way to exist is to be aware of and in touch with all parts of yourself, emotions being a very large piece of that.

 

[Poki]

To be fair MGTOW doesn't completely swear off women but they avoid, at all costs, any kind of legal arrangement with women (marriage, children, taxes, domestic partnership, etc.) because MGTOWs believe the family courts are biased against males. I've met educated MGTOWs and I've met really dumb ones too. The educated ones say they are willing to become legally vulnerable again once the courts reform to be more indiscriminate when it comes to gender. The dumber ones believe there is something inherently untrustworthy in women and that they should be kept at arms length away from any commitment but will still gladly indulge in carnal pleasures. My gripe with MGTOWs is that, yes, the court system might be biased in general against men but its not always the case. There are a minority of cases where men get more sympathetic treatment from judges. Also, I think its possible to meet an honest and genuine woman so that even if the courts are biased you know she would never try to legally fuck you over. I think the fact that the option exists for women to drag their men through the blood stained gallows of family courts still makes MGTOWs avoidant of taking the risk.

I just dont get running out of fear of what "could" happen like that. Letting society control you like that.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

I don't understand where this perception comes from that if a guy doesn't show his emotions to others as much that we are somehow lacking in emotion or that there's something wrong with us?
So for myself, I don't mind talking about emotional matters but only when there is a perceived emotional issue and only when I have some kind of workable understanding or solution to it. I won't necessarily talk about emotions just to talk about them. I emotional concepts more often than not boring.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

I just dont get running out of fear of what "could" happen like that. Letting society control you like that.

MGTOWs avoid because they don't want to be under the control of legal norms which they perceive to be biased in favor of women.

 

[small.wonder]

To be fair MGTOW doesn't completely swear off women but they avoid, at all costs, any kind of legal arrangement with women (marriage, children, taxes, domestic partnership, etc.) because MGTOWs believe the family courts are biased against males. I've met educated MGTOWs and I've met really dumb ones too. The educated ones say they are willing to become legally vulnerable again once the courts reform to be more indiscriminate when it comes to gender. The dumber ones believe there is something inherently untrustworthy in women and that they should be kept at arms length away from any commitment but will still gladly indulge in carnal pleasures. My gripe with MGTOWs is that, yes, the court system might be biased in general against men but its not always the case. There are a minority of cases where men get more sympathetic treatment from judges. Also, I think its possible to meet an honest and genuine woman so that even if the courts are biased you know she would never try to legally fuck you over. I think the fact that the option exists for women to drag their men through the blood stained gallows of family courts still makes MGTOWs avoidant of taking the risk.

Hmm...this explains some about a divorce my female cousin is going through. Her husband may have been reading into this stuff, and is one of the dumb (more like psychologically unstable) ones. It's been really sad and messy, but I'll admit rare that he's the one trying to manipulate her and take the kids from her. I realize that it's usually the other way around.

I do feel for the well intentioned ones (as I said), but going self protective is only going to ensure loneliness and frustration. Fear is a powerful master, one I do not think it's ever wise to serve.

The above bolded is the bottom line in my opinion (for both genders). I'd never marry a guy who wasn't extremely storm worthy and communicative-- there are plenty of red flags to be aware of to indicate people who are manipulative, self-serving or deceptive (or maybe it's because I'm allergic to that).

My parents have been divorced since I was 7, but I'm so thankful to them for the example of communicative, peaceful partnership they exemplified through that-- heck, even now! They never argued in front of us, and (I know this is weird) but acted as a team, trying to find the universal best outcome. They built a lot of trust, and both of them have made large sacrifices for each other and ultimately for the family they created together (even if the weren't married any longer). Divorce is a bad thing, and I personally believe, completely avoidable (it's just easier than hard work) but if more divorces looked like my parents', it would be fine.

So the legal system is a mess, not just in regards to this issue. If that causes people to be more discerning (I wish that were true ) about who they tie themselves to, and actually treat marriage like the lifelong partnership it's supposed to be, then so be it! I see that as a positive.

 

[Poki]

MGTOWs avoid because they don't want to be under the control of legal norms which they perceive to be biased in favor of women.

But running in fear is being controlled. So they allow themself to be controlled in an attempt to avoid control. I just dont get it. Its crazy how people just see things from one angle and not the big picture. They voluntarly shackle themselves out of fear of being shackled by someone else. They portray this as being a pussy in cartoons and kid shows. Oh well, their life.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

Hmm...this explains some about a divorce my female cousin is going through. Her husband may have been reading into this stuff, and is one of the dumb (more like psychologically unstable) ones. It's been really sad and messy, but I'll admit rare that he's the one trying to manipulate her and take the kids from her. I realize that it's usually the other way around.

And the real victims here isn't the man or the woman necessarily but those kids.

I do feel for the well intentioned ones (as I said), but going self protective is only going to ensure loneliness and frustration. Fear is a powerful master, one I do not think it's ever wise to serve.

I don't know if the bolded part is necessarily true. It might be true for you but I don't think its true for someone like me. I'm fairly certain that I don't need a long term committed relationship to avoid loneliness or frustration merely because my mind is so adaptable that I can find things to satiate it almost anywhere. I think it would be nice, perhaps even preferable in some sense to find a high quality woman to share life with but I don't feel its something I must do if that makes any sense.

The above bolded is the bottom line in my opinion (for both genders). I'd never marry a guy who wasn't extremely storm worthy and communicative-- there are plenty of red flags to be aware of to indicate people who are manipulative, self-serving or deceptive (or maybe it's because I'm allergic to that).

Agreed 100%

My parents have been divorced since I was 7, but I'm so thankful to them for the example of communicative, peaceful partnership they exemplified through that-- heck, even now! They never argued in front of us, and (I know this is weird) but acted as a team, trying to find the universal best outcome. They built a lot of trust, and both of them have made large sacrifices for each other and ultimately for the family they created together (even if the weren't married any longer). Divorce is a bad thing, and I personally believe, completely avoidable (it's just easier than hard work) but if more divorces looked like my parents', it would be fine.So the legal system is a mess, not just in regards to this issue. If that causes people to be more discerning (I wish that were true ) about who they tie themselves to, and actually treat marriage like the lifelong partnership it's supposed to be, then so be it! I see that as a positive.

Mine were divorced since I was 5 ( which is 29 years ago). My mother scorned my father (for reasons that would throw this thread way OT) but decided to never legally crucify him which I respect her for (not) doing. She even had slime ball lawyers trying to get her to take him to court. She understood the only one that would lose the most in a legal war would be her child. Over time they became more cordial and eventually on fair negotiating terms. I agree with you, a lot of people today do not treat marriage with enough respect and seriousness that is required. Kinda sucks but it ends up creating people like MGTOWs.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

But running in fear is being controlled. So they allow themself to be controlled in an attempt to avoid control. I just dont get it. Its crazy how people just see things from one angle and not the big picture. They voluntarly shackle themselves out of fear of being shackled by someone else. They portray this as being a pussy in cartoons and kid shows. Oh well, their life.

Even if running in fear is being controlled I think it's more preferable than being taken to a back alley and being metaphorically shot in the head by the current family court system Also, I live in fear of deadly diseases so I take steps to try to ensure I don't face any health issues until my body finally breaks down from old age. Is that living in fear like a pussy according to your interpretation?

 

[small.wonder]

And the real victims here isn't the man or the woman necessarily but those kids.

So so true. I even offered to come stay with her for the summer to help (and really, to give her kids a safe unbiased party)-- regardless of her husband's inappropriate behavior (stalking, coercing their kids and family members to take "his side", threats, etc.) there is definitely blame and heavy bias on both sides. My little cousins must be so confused.

I don't know if the bolded part is necessarily true. It might be true for you but I don't think its true for someone like me. I'm fairly certain that I don't need a long term committed relationship to avoid loneliness or frustration merely because my mind is so adaptable that I can find things to satiate it almost anywhere. I think it would be nice, perhaps even preferable in some sense to find a high quality woman to share life with but I don't feel its something I must do if that makes any sense.

That sentiment was aimed at your description of the fear these men have of the legal system, and allowing it to potentially keep them from commiting to something they otherwise desire.

I've been single for the last six and a half years (which started intentionally, and now is just for lack of a suitable partner) so I'm definitely not uncomfortable sans relationship either. My vocational pursuits, friendships and my relationship with God satisfy-- but I think thats the very healthiest place to enter into a relationship (with a like minded person) out of. If that desire is there, of course. I was ashamed of my desire for a counterpart for years, thought it was weak. I've realized after all this time though, that just because lots of people want relationships + families for emotionally unhealthy reasons, doesn't make the desire itself unhealthy-- especially when I'm pretty health-focused. So yeah, I desire that eventually but don't need it to feel complete.

Mine were divorced since I was 5 ( which is 29 years ago). My mother scorned my father (for reasons that would throw this thread way OT) but decided to never legally crucify him which I respect her for (not) doing. She even had slime ball lawyers trying to get her to take him to court. She understood the only one that would lose the most in a legal war would be her child. Over time they became more cordial and eventually on fair negotiating terms. I agree with you, a lot of people today do not treat marriage with enough respect and seriousness that is required. Kinda sucks but it ends up creating people like MGTOWs.

Yeah, I see why it pushes people to the extreme end of the spectrum (not that I think it's the answer). That's great that your parents could handle it that way, it actually sounds similar to my parents' (my Mom could have taken my Dad to court several times now probably, but hasn't ever seen that as a responsible option, and all has been resolved).

Funny, but I've noticed upbringing similarities between myself and several 7w8s now.

 

[Poki]

Even if running in fear is being controlled I think it's more preferable than being taken to a back alley and being metaphorically shot in the head by the current family court system Also, I live in fear of deadly diseases so I take steps to try to ensure I don't face any health issues until my body finally breaks down from old age. Is that living in fear like a pussy according to your interpretation?

Depends on the extremes you take. Those men are taking pretty huge extremes.

Its like a person who wears a face mask out in public...doesnt really affect their life at all other then what they try to accomplish and the stupid people who gawk and make fun. But to take the extremes that these men take affects every aspect of life.

Now someone who wont leave the house in fear of dying due to airborne contaminates is pretty much dead due to not really living a full life most enjoy. Its their life, but sucks to have that mindset.

Edit: i personally dont like labeling people as pussy which is why i worded it the way i did. I see it as an underlying issue, not labeled as pussy. Thats just the way society labels them which supports the topic. It just confuses me and i am more likely to label them as retarded or needing help as they need help. Not sure if thats any better as some people would rther be a pussy then retarded or such. To each thier own.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

So so true. I even offered to come stay with her for the summer to help (and really, to give her kids a safe unbiased party)-- regardless of her husband's inappropriate behavior (stalking, coercing their kids and family members to take "his side", threats, etc.) there is definitely blame and heavy bias on both sides. My little cousins must be so confused.

Do they see you more as an aunt though? I have no siblings so my cousin's kids are like my nieces and nephews and refer to me as an uncle.

That sentiment was aimed at your description of the fear these men have of the legal system, and allowing it to potentially keep them from commiting to something they otherwise desire.

Yeah I agree its an extreme perception of an understandable concern. Btw, I have a female friend that avoids legal relationships with men for a similar reason because she makes bank (lot's of money) and her shitty and stupid decision in letting a douchebag into her life before almost screwed up all her earned success. Point is its not completely segregated to my gender and I think it's fair to acknowledge that.

I've been single for the last six and a half years (which started intentionally, and now is just for lack of a suitable partner) so I'm definitely not uncomfortable sans relationship either. My vocational pursuits, friendships and my relationship with God satisfy-- but I think thats the very healthiest place to enter into a relationship (with a like minded person) out of. If that desire is there, of course. I was ashamed of my desire for a counterpart for years, thought it was weak. I've realized after all this time though, that just because lots of people want relationships + families for emotionally unhealthy reasons, doesn't make the desire itself unhealthy-- especially when I'm pretty health-focused. So yeah, I desire that eventually but don't need it to feel complete.

6 1/2 years? So I could imagine some possibilities why that would be but clearly you have high standards (maybe too high? if there is such a thing?) The bolded part is exactly the point I was getting across and I'm glad you got it.

Yeah, I see why it pushes people to the extreme end of the spectrum (not that I think it's the answer). That's great that your parents could handle it that way, it actually sounds similar to my parents' (my Mom could have taken my Dad to court several times now probably, but hasn't ever seen that as a responsible option, and all has been resolved).

The fact that my mother didn't send my father through the ringer already instilled in me a legitimate and tangible respect for quality women early in my life yet I recognize that my ( and your) parents' resolution might have been a minority occurrence. Though my mother didn't legally destroy my father she did have a lot of personal vitriol for him and would often blame my 'attitude' (typical rambunctious smart-ass boy) on my father's genetic influence, lol. It seemed so irrational and stupid to me that one day, when I was older, I just asked her 'why?' and grilled her arguments. Finally she admitted she was being unreasonable and let anger cloud her judgment. As I said , they cordially established a working separated relationship for my sake and that was good.

Funny, but I've noticed upbringing similarities between myself and several 7w8s now.

I know virtually nothing about enneagram, I just know of the tests I've taken I've always gotten 7w8. I suppose this is a good thing? (I've always paid more attention to MBTI and B5).

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

...One of the most revealing projects was a PowerPoint by a student who had videotaped himself and then a female friend pretending to cry in the crowded foyer of the university library, gauging the starkly different reactions of passers-by.

“Why do you think a few young women stopped to see if your female friend was O.K.,” I asked him, “but no one did the same thing for you?”

Am I the only person who read this and cringed? For me, I wouldn't approach a male or female if they were crying in public. That isn't the right place to show emotion and if shown, I would think they would want some privacy as the news they just heard was pretty bad.

Also, for my personal safety, I am not going to approach a man who is visibly upset. I'm not going to actively involve myself in something that may back fire on me in a worst case scenario.

Yeah, I am not saying men are rapists (before I get that) I am saying what a lot of people agree with - that as a person, I am smart enough to not place myself in a questionable situation. Keep in mind, those women that Ted Bundy lured? He did that on crutches. Pretending to be lame.

So this presentation is seriously flawed. It doesn't show lack of concern for male sadness - as if could be simply a discomfort with emotion in general, personal safety, respect for privacy, etc.

If any of my male friends called me crying I would drop everything to assist them or try to make them feel better.

 

[Poki]

Am I the only person who read this and cringed? For me, I wouldn't approach a male or female if they were crying in public. That isn't the right place to show emotion and if shown, I would think they would want some privacy as the news they just heard was pretty bad.

Also, for my personal safety, I am not going to approach a man who is visibly upset. I'm not going to actively involve myself in something that may back fire on me in a worst case scenario.

Yeah, I am not saying men are rapists (before I get that) I am saying what a lot of people agree with - that as a person, I am smart enough to not place myself in a questionable situation. Keep in mind, those women that Ted Bundy lured? He did that on crutches. Pretending to be lame.

So this presentation is seriously flawed. It doesn't show lack of concern for male sadness - as if could be simply a discomfort with emotion in general, personal safety, respect for privacy, etc.

If any of my male friends called me crying I would drop everything to assist them or try to make them feel better.

Gotta love how people try to prove one thing, but due to choice of execution they just prove something entirely different and dont realize it. Feel bad for these people as they really would struggle in life finding the "why" of things.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

ZNP, I thought of your argument of yesterday when I saw this article today.

It has a lot of interesting points on the decline of marriage and the impact of single parenthood on children.

According to the studies he references, those negative outcomes relate more to poverty than to single parenthood. He sees the reason for lack of marriage among lower classes as the result of the decline of middle class blue collar jobs.

He has a quote in his article about unwed American mothers that is insightful.

According to Mincy, one third of all American children (70 percent of African American children) are born to unmarried parents. Yet 80 percent of the parents in the study thought their chances of marrying were between 50/50 and certainty at the time their child was born. “But if they want to marry, why don’t they?” he questions. The main reason very few marry (only 15 percent do so within 12 months), he says, is relationship quality, measured by factors such as the ability to compromise during disagreements and the man’s support for the woman during pregnancy. Race also matters, as do employment and culture.

African American women are unlikely to marry unemployed men, he notes. Thus the formula for black men’s success requires jobs that pay a living wage.

His conclusion seems valid

They choose not to marry for perfectly understandable reasons.bless Mincy agrees that jobs are the key.bless His statistics show that people choose not to marry particular prospective partners precisely because they believe that doing so would make their life miserable and perhaps endanger the children economically, psychologically, and even physically.

While I don't discount the availability of a safety net might contribute a bit, but many of those unwed mothers would love to get married and to the baby daddy, but the lack of good jobs really hurts.

The combination of immigration and globalization has slammed middle and lower class families for 40 years. The rich can easily survive in the post-morality society being single parents and having their kids have great outcomes. The rest, not so much. The redistribution of wealth from the 99 to the 1 has devastated society.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Right this is why in a life and death scenario it would seem most men are thinking 'protect the women and children.' On the Titanic most of the lifeboats were filled with women and children even in a supposedly 'misogynistic culture' back then. I guess drowning/freezing was the epitome of male privilege back then.

I mean, I see what you are getting at here but...

Women weren't even allowed to vote at the time of the Titanic. I mean, women had to actively fight for basic rights. So to say they had this massive power to influence male "policies" at this time?...meh...not buying it in the packaging you are selling it.

I think it is more in the same way that women help perpetuate stereotypes of their own gender to gain advantage of a perceived rival or situation...men do as well.

Example: A woman calling another woman a whore in order to publicly shame her, only because she got the attention of a man SHE wanted for herself. This is counter-productive on a large scale but on an individual one, it makes sense.

You are competing against a rival and this person is using all weapons in their arsenal to do the most damage to come out looking better. "better" being their perception of "winning". It really doesn't matter if that woman actually thinks the other is a whore. She is playing with weapons that have been laid out for her. But laid out by men? Sure...Women? Sure.

So, is it the chicken or the egg? I think it is neither and both. Playing dirty is lazy but efficient and effective.


I hesitate to get into this being female vs male but I had to make that distinction that human nature (males and females) will utilize any means necessary when competition, ambition and desire come into play. Even if it hurts them in the long run. It's the individual verses the collective.

 

[prplchknz]

ok so does anyone besides me keep picturing a woman opening up a man's ribs and taking out the organs, because of this thread title?

 

[ZNP-TBA]

ZNP, I thought of your argument of yesterday when I saw this article today.

It has a lot of interesting points on the decline of marriage and the impact of single parenthood on children.

According to the studies he references, those negative outcomes relate more to poverty than to single parenthood. He sees the reason for lack of marriage among lower classes as the result of the decline of middle class blue collar jobs.

He has a quote in his article about unwed American mothers that is insightful.



His conclusion seems valid



While I don't discount the availability of a safety net might contribute a bit, but many of those unwed mothers would love to get married and to the baby daddy, but the lack of good jobs really hurts.

The combination of immigration and globalization has slammed middle and lower class families for 40 years. The rich can easily survive in the post-morality society being single parents and having their kids have great outcomes. The rest, not so much. The redistribution of wealth from the 99 to the 1 has devastated society.

Good stuff. I think IQ is a lot to do with it too. It is the single strongest predictor of future success even more so than SES but I'll write more on that later. I think [MENTION=5643]EcK[/MENTION] will want to join in on IQ discussions though.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

ok so does anyone besides me keep picturing a woman opening up a man's ribs and taking out the organs, because of this thread title?

Earlier I thought about making a joke about sawing men open, but then decided against it.

 

[prplchknz]

Earlier I thought about making a joke about sawing men open, but then decided against it.

you should've.

but i was thinking more of like cracking the ribs open.