N's: beating around the bush

[Rachelinpa]

incidentally, do you have a particular attachment to sodium? (your avatar)

NA - Negative Asian.

 

[substitute]

so, is it woods and trees again?

 

[Rachelinpa]

An S will want specific points nailed in place at specific locations; the N wants the "pattern" or relationship between the points to be determined, and then the pattern can be overlaid over any situation to see if the specific points in that situation are properly related.

I can see the value of the specific points an S would want. Do S's see the value of the pattern or relationship between points?

 

[alicia91]

For example, an opening post might ask about why ESFPs are flighty, but a few posts later the real question would turn out to be "How do I get this ESFP to pay attention to me?".

When I get this sort of question my first response is usually "Why--what's going on?" or "which one of your ESFP friends is annoying you?"

I prefer to start with the specific, personal, hear all the details of a specific example (heck, I even want a name!) THEN I will generalize it and discuss the pattern and the relationship between all the RELEVANT points.

I sometimes get annoyed by the N-style questions because it often feels manipulative, or is wasting my time.

 

[substitute]

When I get this sort of question my first response is usually "Why--what's going on?" or "which one of your ESFP friends is annoying you?"

I prefer to start with the specific, personal, hear all the details of a specific example (heck, I even want a name!) THEN I will generalize it and discuss the pattern and the relationship between all the points.

Yeah, my close friend (an ISTJ) is the same. It frustrates me as much as my beating around the bush frustrates him. I just want to introduce the topic and get to the part that I wanted to tell him about, the part I need his input for, and he just keeps stopping me and pressing for detail and I'm like dude, look, that doesn't matter, that's not what I wanted to talk about, that's just what inspired me to want to talk about it.

Of course he says it's the same the other way round. He just wants to know what the heck I'm talking about in detail so then he can more 'safely' theorize. I guess for me, I need to theorize first before I even feel able to define what it is that I'm talking about...

 

[Jack Flak]

When I get this sort of question my first response is usually "Why--what's going on?" or "which one of your ESFP friends is annoying you?"

I prefer to start with the specific, personal, hear all the details of a specific example (heck, I even want a name!) THEN I will generalize it and discuss the pattern and the relationship between all the points.

This may be obvious, but my fingers are energetic: Probably because sensors have more experience with details, and intuitives more with theory. As sensors age they become more adept at the big picture stuff, and as intuitives age we gain experience in life--thus we become like each other.

 

[563 740]

Most of the good points were already hit so I'll try to come up with an analogy...

We beat around the bush instead of just trampling straight over it - for all we know, we might not even need to do anything with the bush!! Better to give it a good looking over first.

 

[Jack Flak]

We beat around the bush instead of just trampling straight over it - for all we know, we might not even need to do anything with the bush!! Better to give it a good looking over first.

Alternatively, pull the bush out with a Chevy and toss it in a ditch. Some bushes just clutter up the view.

 

[Rachelinpa]

Alternatively, pull the bush out with a Chevy and toss it in a ditch. Some bushes just clutter up the view.

Do it.

 

[substitute]

Alternatively, pull the bush out with a Chevy and toss it in a ditch. Some bushes just clutter up the view.

dude, you're so misdiagnosed it's not even funny...

 

[Jack Flak]

dude, you're so misdiagnosed it's not even funny...

"Joeeyyyy! I wanna hit you!"

 

[ptgatsby]

But I'm having a bad vocabulary day today and seem unable to articulate what it is I'm thinking properly. Anyone care to input?

Any other Ss find irony in... the lack of question to answer in the OP?

I would, however, like to draw a line between NP/SP and NJ/SJ differences here. It is mostly Ps that ask open ended questions like this, while it is mostly Js that ask the "wrong", but defined, questions.

IMO, it has to do with what we get rewarded with.

Asking a direct question and getting a direct answer leaves you nothing to think about. Resolution goes against both N and P in different ways.

 

[563 740]

Alternatively, pull the bush out with a Chevy and toss it in a ditch. Some bushes just clutter up the view.

After careful consideration, we have decided to use the SP approach. Everybody step back...

 

[substitute]

well yeah, you got a point PT, but address it to Colors since she was the one complaining about N's being too vague... SHE'S the one who failed to specify NP's

 

[563 740]

Any other Ss find irony in... the lack of question to answer in the OP?

We're still busy framing the question in order to properly answer it.

 

[ptgatsby]

well yeah, you got a point PT, but address it to Colors since she was the one complaining about N's being too vague... SHE'S the one who failed to specify NP's

Heh heh... well, we wouldn't want to close the door on possible avenues of disagreement, otherwise we'd have nothing to talk about, right?

We're still busy framing the question in order to properly answer it.

:rolli:

Another thing crossed my mind;

But I'm having a bad vocabulary day today and seem unable to articulate what it is I'm thinking properly.

Could this indicate resistance against forming a... properly framed... question?

 

[substitute]

Could this indicate resistance against forming a... properly framed... question?

On many occasions you'd be quite right in suggesting that PT, but I'm afraid on this occasion it's indicative only of severe lack of sleep coupled with a badly timed decision to give up caffeine! I actually really tried several times before giving up and just posting it as it is hahaaha

 

[Jeffster]

I don't think I tergiversate intentionally.

I hope I don't either. That sounds painful.

 

[ygolo]

The reason I like to solve more general problems than specific ones is due to the inventors paradox.

In B. Fuller's terms:
"the more ambitious plan may have more chances of success".

In more general terms:
"Solve a concrete problem by solving a more general problem. The general problem has paradoxically a simpler solution. But you have to invent an appropriate general problem which covers your concrete problem. "

This is my main problem solving strategy. It elucidates the principles at work.

 

[Colors]

No, S's never think about the big picture or general principles. We do. (And it does seem to tie into P/J difference as well.) The N just comes after the natural S process.

It is however, quite difficult to solve or fully explore anything when facts are missing.

In the same post that you started this thread to respond to, I mentioned my ESTJ friend often parrots back uninteresting side information or titles/resume facts when asked to describe someone. I've found this often among STJs- (the facts are slightly different among SFJs). However, my ESTJ friend is the starting point of such thought- the majority of my experience with the frustration of hearing such uninformative answers. Although I think my experience *can* be applied more universally perhaps, it would be disingenuous and even misleading to not state said experience upfront and leave it to the audience to judge validity.

Oh, a word just came to me: leverage. It's all about leverage for N's, isn't it? Or is that just me? You know, the reason we're more interested in 'why ESFP's are flighty' than asking 'how do I get this ESFP to notice me' is because the general idea is that when you understand the whys and hows of something, it enables you to know exactly where to apply leverage in order to achieve the desired effect.

Isn't that the point of all psychology? (The opening speech of every psychology class I've ever taken. )