Lucid dreaming

[Mole]

oh well lets give it a try

victor, from where i stand, the fact that you CAN have these daydream visualizations proofs mbti, because other people of your type can do that too, while other people of my type can not do it. when i am awake, i have a powerful technical visualization skill, i can run a series of semi transparent pattern-blueprints at light speed, but i am incapable of stabilizing a slow paced concrete matter fantasy, like your rocky mountain thing.... it's a different skillset. the fact that my right brain hemisphere is 0.4 inch bigger then my left hemisphere is not a fantasy, so is the fact, that some people have an even skull or the opposite variation. (and there are other scientific proofs that proof different wiring of the brain, so where do you take that ignorance from, to call type fantasy?)

esoteric people like you, who resist categories will sell expensive books about how to daydream (visualize) in your fashion, claiming that everyone can do it, when reality proves that this is a lie, and idiots like me buy these books, and we try and try (and the books dont explain HOW it works, only tell you descriptively to do it like they do it, lol) and then we are ashamed because we can not do it. however i can understand ken wilber, so i don't feel entirely inferior.

i can always have access to altered states, after leaving my stable hard coded type configuration which is defined by my brain structure, as it currently is producing my waking state.

and that does not mean, that someone like me can not have control in these states, its just a much bigger challenge to control a state that is deep and open to every aspect of the subconsciousness. so yes, there are many things that could lead me to superstitions if i was the gross person who interprets reality literally and based on pictures, as if an angel with wings was an actual angel or something. however i a not such a person, which is not related to my type (of dreaming) but to my stage (of being able to maintain multiple even seemingly contradictory perspectives).

i can collect experiences and work with working-assumptions, without having them rule my full view of reality. i can make a distinction between things that are possible and things that are proven in a relative situation.

no need to warn me of anything.

the only thing that saves people from superstitions (gross interpretations of dream states, like out of body experiences for example) in the long run is an integral world view. giving them tabus about what experiences they should and should not have, does not work. obviously people get "abducted by aliens", who are not even trying to achieve an altered stage of consciousness.





sorry, victor, but even if you are not a part of the group, the group is still a part of reality, meaning that it's collective creation is a part of reality (it's maintained by their brains), not a fantasy. the word fantasy is supposed to refer to something that has no originating basis, that is arbitrary and transitory because it is not reflecting hard structures. however collective creation (the so called We-quadrant, that might encourage type development) is a representation of individual potential (a hard structure). its the most real thing, samsara has to offer.

I learnt how to do it by paying a Sport's Psychologist at the University.

He was very good particularly with beginners.

He understood where we where starting from and warned us of the dangers.

But interestingly, only half the class lasted the distance of the course. In other words, half the class dropped out.

And it was very plain why. They started to become disturbed by what they were discovering inside themselves.

They were almost all athletes who only wanted to improve their performance. And they found getting to know themselves better to be too threatening, so they left.

But the rest of us learnt how to move in and out of trance, successfully and safely.

And only as by-product, our performance improved.

 

[zago]

Last night I dreamed that I had a telepathic connection with my mom, and that I was a refugee in a war and I got shot in the wrist. Not lucid yet.

 

[nanook]

But interestingly, only half the class lasted the distance of the course. In other words, half the class dropped out.

And it was very plain why. They started to become disturbed by what they were discovering inside themselves.

that is assumptions .. the very same thing happens in EVERY course of this kind, it happens for example in a trans-personal rehabilitation clinic were all participants are interested into finding them-selves and eventually succeed, but by using very different methods. in fact, there are way more than two groups. some people have theses daydreams, others stumble into energetic awareness (kundalini stuff) and so on ....

 

[Mole]

that is assumptions .. the very same thing happens in EVERY course of this kind, it happens for example in a trans-personal rehabilitation clinic were all participants are interested into finding them-selves and eventually succeed, but by using very different methods. in fact, there are way more than two groups. some people have theses daydreams, others stumble into energetic awareness (kundalini stuff) and so on ....

OK, I understand you don't like what I am saying or perhaps the way I am saying it.

 

[nanook]

i have no problem with how you say it, and you are certainly reasonable when you assume that some of your athletes were not interested in the course (in their inner life) or maybe most of them. but you can not know it for all of them. and making such an assumption can't possibly justify your theory ("everyone can do this if he would just be brave like myself"), for instance because of the massive objective evidence for how people are very differently equipped. its somehow true that everyone can learn to induce trance, however this trance is not in every case different from a wake induced lucid dream, which is not a different state from what i have experienced sometimes or from a normal lucid dream. but your daydreaming visualization is most likely different from it. but let's say, it's not. lets say, you induce a typical dreamstate. so, since your waking state is different by type than that of another person, the transition from this original waking state state into the wake induced lucid dream (so called WILD) is a different transition process. now, if you call the inducing "achieving trance", then this word refers to a different processes of transition, for different people. so whatever you do is different from what for example I would have to do, to arrive at the same goal (state). the transition is experienced differently. i need to make the most significant transition from one side of the brain into the most opposite side, which is a hard ego threatening tremor, for you its just a little shift. it's just arrogant of you, to assume, that i or other people who are not like you, are different, "because they are disturbed by any content of my character".

 

[Mole]

i have no problem with how you say it, and you are certainly reasonable when you assume that some of your athletes were not interested in the course or maybe most of them. but you can not know it for all of them. and making such an assumption can't possibly justify your theory ("everyone can do this if he would just be brave like myself"), for instance because of the massive objective evidence for how people are very differently equipped. its somehow true that everyone can learn to induce trance, however this trance is not in every case different from a wake induced lucid dream, which is not a different state from what i have experienced sometimes or from a normal lucid dream. but your daydreaming visualization is most likely different from it. but let's say, it's not. lets say, you induce a typical dreamstate. so, since your waking state is different by type than that of another person, the transition from this original waking state state into the wake induced lucid dream (so called WILD) is a different transition process. no, if you call the inducing "achieving trance" then, this word refers to different processes of transition, for different people. so whatever you do is different from what for example i have to do. the transition is experienced differently. for me i need to make the most significant transition from one side of the brain into the most opposite side, which is a hard ego threatening tremble, for you its just a little shift. its just arrogant of you, to assume, that i or other people who are not like you, are different, "because they are disturbed by any content of my character".

Of course you are right, Nanook. We all have our individual differences and they can be mapped on a Bell Curve where most fall in the middle and a decreasingly smaller number fall at either end.

And of course I am limited just by being myself. So that is why I talk to you. You are different from me and you are well aware you are different from me.

So you can see things differently, do things differently and know things differently.

So I can only rely upon you to tell me about the different world you inhabit.

Sometimes, though, I am so keen to tell you about the different world I inhabit that I forget to listen to you. And that is a mistake.

 

[nanook]

okay, your integrity is refreshing.

So I can only rely upon you to tell me about the different world you inhabit.

well, i cant just list random things that might constitute a difference. the bottom line is, that i can not access a visualizing state, coming from waking state. i can wake induce a dream sometimes, but this involves full dissociation of the body, meaning i will sleep physically. i might have a tiny rest of awareness about my physical body, but it's in paralysis (that is very different from being relaxed). interestingly even shamans have these differences. some dance around drumming, others lay down on the ground and put their bodies to sleep, while someone else has to drum for them.

 

[Mole]

...for me i need to make the most significant transition from one side of the brain into the most opposite side, which is a hard ego threatening tremble, for you its just a little shift.

Yes, this is interesting Nanook. And yes I think we are talking about a shift in the brain.

When the shift occurs for me I do feel a sharp fear, perhaps not unlike your, "hard ego threatening tremble".

And yes the shift is a threat to the ego for the ego has to let go for a while.

And as it is our ego that looks after our survival, it feels that our very survival is threatened and so we, "tremble".

And I tremble too.

So to help understand my trembling I have tried to learn about the process of moving from one state to another.

But it is always an adventure.

And I am always looking for, and sometimes finding, something new.

 

[nanook]

And yes the shift is a threat to the ego for the ego has to let go for a while.

so if i assume that its not all that different from how it is for me, than i will also assume, that this letting go is where a break of "reality control" will happen, which might induce a dream-state that is suggestible to illusion, for example, on the way back from trance, false awakenings are likely to happen, which indicate, that the "lucidity" has been lost. in my experience it took experience to find all these different states and compare them from a distance, tell "how" lucid experiences have been, or how illusory. for instance these so called out of body experiences are horribly tricky.

 

[Mole]

okay, your integrity is refreshing.

well, i cant just list random things that might constitute a difference. the bottom line is, that i can not access a visualizing state, coming from waking state. i can wake induce a dream sometimes, but this involves full dissociation of the body, meaning i will sleep physically. i might have a tiny rest of awareness about my physical body, but it's in paralysis (that is very different from being relaxed). interestingly even shamans have these differences. some dance around drumming, others lay down on the ground and put their bodies to sleep, while someone else has to drum for them.

Yes, there are myriad ways of entering and leaving a trance.

And you are right, the differences are great.

And you have different ways of entering and leaving a trance than I.

So I have been very interested to learn to pull all these differences together.

The closest I have got is Dennis Weir's, "Trance Theory".

It might be a theory that appeals to you as it is logical and consistent and takes account of differences.

You can find it by clicking on -

The Trance Institute

You might like to tell me what you think of it.

 

[nanook]

for me, it has often been very hard to awaken my physical body, after "leaving" it for a dreamstate. i would leave my dreamhouse much like you, saying good by and stuff, and end the visuals and become caught in blackness of physical paralysis for minutes, eventually creating hallucinations of my body, while trying to get in touch with it. its like "oh now i am in my right arm, now i should move it a little bit" but then it seems to move right through the matter of the chair, which indicates, that both arm and chair are just an illusion, a loose representation of actual data from the five senses ... i have spend full hours fighting to get my body back.

 

[Mole]

so if i assume that its not all that different from how it is for me, than i will also assume, that this letting go is where a break of "reality control" will happen, which might induce a dream-state that is suggestible to illusion, for example, on the way back from trance, false awakenings are likely to happen, which indicate, that the "lucidity" has been lost. in my experience it took experience to find all these different states and compare them from a distance, tell "how" lucid experiences have been, or how illusory. for instance these so called out of body experiences are horribly tricky.

My word, they are tricky aren't they?

And it seems to me that the two states are tricky because they are mutually exclusive.

So we can only see one state at a time. And it is terribly easy to assume that is the only state.

And that is why it is so vital to learn to move safely between the states.

Two French psychologists gave a nice name to this movement and called it, "L'alternance".

I guess in English we would say, "alternating between the states".

But I guess it would be said much better in German.

So I guess you and I are not learning trance, we are learning to move in and out of, and between, trances.

We are learning to move.

 

[Mole]

for me, it has often been very hard to awaken my physical body, after "leaving" it for a dreamstate. i would leave my dreamhouse much like you, saying good by and stuff, and end the visuals and become caught in blackness of physical paralysis for minutes, eventually creating hallucinations of my body, while trying to get in touch with it. its like "oh now i am in my right arm, now i should move it a little bit" but then it seems to move right through the matter of the chair, which indicates, that both arm and chair are just an illusion, a loose representation of actual data from the five senses ... i have spend full hours fighting to get my body back.

Yes, this is very interesting.

And it reminds me of something - sometimes in a real dream, I won't be able to move - and sometimes when I am in a waking trance, I feel I really don't want to move at all.

However for me these experiences are brief and pass quickly. While for you, they are long and drawn out.

And there is a name for this experience, but I can't remember it now.

But what comes to mind is this - if you are designing a trance, the first thing you design is a way in and a way out.

The second thing you might design is suggestions you will give yourself in the trance, like, "I will awake relaxed and refreshed".

Or you might give yourself the suggestion, "As I leave the trance, I become fully awake and alert".

So perhaps the most important part of a trance is designing the way in and out, and the suggestions you will make to yourself. And it is important to do this before you enter the trance and then you may not have to spend full hours fighting to get your body back.

But I must admit I love trance and can't imagine my life without it.

 

[zago]

First success

Last night, or this morning rather, I had a lucid dream. Ironically, I didn't pass through a door in the dream and do a reality check. I've been thinking about it so much recently, though, that thinking about dreaming happened within the dream, which made me realize I was in a dream.

It was awesome. I dreamed that my apartment was beautifully decorated... can hardly even describe it. It was amazing that it had come from my own mind. I explored this environment, and found myself feeling very free to do anything, knowing it was only a dream. However, when I acted upon a desire that was not an immediate one, the dream ended. You see, I had a bet going with my friend as to who could lucid dream first, and to win you had to both fly and have sex in the dream. I went for the sex, even though the dream had a lot of other things to explore, and I walked in and the girl was wearing a red lingerie. And she smiled, and it ended.

I suspect things will only deepen from here.

 

[nanook]

you should not reinforce false intentions, because they might not only stop specific dreams but lucid dreams altogether.

what happens often, when i become semi lucid, is that i want to act out stuff that i have done before or wanted to achieve before. often i want to find other people in a different house in my neighborhood, or i am flying over a town hoping to find something sacred symbolical like a church that is all about my most inner secrets, or i want to fly higher and higher, hoping to see more and more of the globe.

what happens is, that the dream ends soon

i never get to experience more than outside of this church, or woman ...

because i can not imagine something, that is supposed to surprise me.

by definition a surprise is an external force. a women who welcomes your peter is external, god in a church is external, discovering the world is external. this definition of external is entirely subjective. you can see the whole globe in a dream, if you don't consciously expect (and therefore define) it to be something alien/external. same for church, woman ...

we must realize, that dreams are where we find our selves.

not even our "higher self" because this label is usually a fantasy which defines/implicates it as an external authority. god is not going to talk to us, if we want him to. nobody gives us commands about what is the right thing to do, if we want to know badly, which would already imply that we plan to use the command to live from a disintegrated position (just doing my job).


after discovering ourself in a dream, we can say: this was my higher self, this was a subconscious repressed part, the inner child and so on. we must not ask for some thing to happen to us. adventure is by definition external.

any attitude of disintegration will create distance between us and the dream-force and therefore end the dream state. the dream state is naturally projecting symbolically, but this projection is not the product of disintegration. disintegration or integration happen not in the symbols of the dream, but in our interaction with the symbols. this interaction is a part of the dream. therefor the dream as a whole (storyline) is often about disintegration. but any objects we can see in the dream, are a part of us, in that moment, because we are what we see, the dream is us.

asking for something external is asking for the five senses and the rest of samsara.

so lets have hot dream sex.

how could we achieve that?

you have the desire to win that bet, and you have a desire for adventure. trying not to be primitive and superficial like that will only cause disintegration. no, this is you. (let's say this is me) - but you need to work with it. ask the dream to show you, what your sexual desires are about. ask what is the face of your anima. ask the dream, what it is in you, that wants the approval of being the winner of this bet. maybe your friend will pop up in the dream, to watch you having sex with your anima. if you are lucid enough, you remember that he is a part of you, the part that is not involved in communion with your love, but with abusing it like it was a trophy. ask him why he would do that?

i don't mean that advice literally, because i could not act that smart in a dream.
i stumble into chances sometimes and choose them smartly, or at other times i do exactly what you did. thats why i know how it is wrong. i am good example of a failure. i hope that helps to see the principle. we don't dream according to good intentions, but according to general understanding/insight/agreement. maybe just writing this down will help me, to be more sincere in my next lucid dream ...

 

[zago]

Wow, nice post. Definitely gave me some things to ponder. I actually did intend to take the advice literally, but then you said not to!

 

[nanook]

maybe we should

 

[nanook]

it's weird sometimes asking dream character resulted in them, giving me very smart answers, but sometimes it just constitutes exactly the same disintegration that i have described. it can imply the idea, that it is not (a part of) me, who knows the answer to this question ..... it's really subjective. depends on the attitude i have, when i ask the question. so true lucidity is also in that attitude. that's also where the trixter comes alive.... they will lie to me, if i secretly want them to.

 

[zago]

I've heard that dream characters, when told they are dream characters, never believe it. Maybe it was in this thread? I dunno.

 

[nanook]

can't remember this exact situation, but it think this would also be subjective, relative to what the dreamer means when he uses this word dream character.

they are not supposed to "believe" anything about them selves, because they are not independent personalities. if you ask them to express a believe about them selfs, they will have it, just for you, but that is a lie, sort of, but your own lie of course.

at best they are supposed to know to tell that they are "parts of you". i had dream character telling me, they are parts of me, but i already knew (believed) that anyway, when i asked them, i just wanted to know which part and they knew that, albeit not in the most easy to understand terms.

so suggesting to them that they are "just dream" characters is not a meaningful or respectful way of talking to your self. it seems to sound like: you don't belong here. who are you anyway? it's a disintegrating action.

there are no hard rules about how specific situations work out, only probabilities, because many dreamers share believe systems. they are part of cultivated character. there also seems to be a certain failure tolerance: your subconscious dream engine can deal with some amount of shallow ego suggestions in a meaningful way, but will only reflect shallowness if it gets to much. it might also depend on depth of sleep, hormonal stuff, whatever ... some verry few dreams are really like unstoppable incorruptible messages.