Lana del Rey as Pop Culture Representation of Divine Feminine and Rejected Archetypes

[Kas]

She's pretty much made for David Lynch. I'm surprised they haven't worked more together. He is, my favorite director, along with Kubrick.

Yes, I could see this.

Although I think Lykke Li is currently best match as Lynch music. I hope they're going to cooperate in future.

 

[anticlimatic]

I think she just has that tert-Si fixation going on, so she likes historical anything and classic anything, so she infuses it into her work. Same way Dylan had that tert-Ni fixation going on, where most of his songs barely make any kind of direct sense.

There's also probably no other singer out there right now that I'd want to bone more. Even though I know it would be disappointing.

 

[Thalassa]

Camille Paglia is a well-known commentator on media, culture, and politics. She is the University Professor of Humanities and Media Studies at the University of the Arts in Philadelphia. In other words, Camille Paglia is an expert on this stuff.

Camille Paglia says that Lana Del Rey's genre is the "torch song." She also says that Lana doesn't do it very well:



See the following link for Camille's in-depth analysis of Lana's music. It's at the very end of the column (which starts off being about Hillary Clinton, then about pre-Columbian megaliths). Also, Camille provides some examples of "torch songs" performed by other singers who are better than Lana Del Rey.

Link: Zombie time at campaign Hillary: Camille Paglia on Trump’s real strength and Clinton’s fatal sleepwalking - Salon.com

I don't take advice from Camille Paglia, Gloria Steinham, or anyone from the old school, except maybe a little Germaine Greer. I'm interested in the first and third wave, though I acknowledge and respect second wave pioneers, their opinions are no longer relevant in regards to feminism in art.

Oh, by the way. ...Camille Paglia may be an expert in second wave feminism, but she's not a musician. Lana del Rey has a broader vocal range than many popular singers, including the howling Arianna Grande, and Ultraviolence was the first pop album in fifty years to use a live seven piece band without a bunch of electronic fiddling and autotune. Lana's music is influenced by jazz and blues, so has more complexity than some of the 60s bubble gum crooning she's influenced by, ironically.

Oh and ..here's another example of Paglia's "genius"...she hates lesbians? What a great feminist expert she must be! She'd be the last person I'd ask about representative feminine archetypes, I don't even think that's her forte, though I agree with her on Clinton

Camille Paglia - 'I don't get along with lesbians at all. They don't like me, and I don't like them' | Features | Culture | The Independent

It's not even funny for a woman attracted to women to say she hates lesbians, and apparently can't get along with other women. Why is that? Does she actually not understand or genuinely like other women? Is she a narcissist?

Seriously, popular art has to be viewed with a lens which comprehends the feeling of an era. I don't think Paglia or Steinham understand Millenial women. It bothers me.

 

[Thalassa]

I think she just has that tert-Si fixation going on, so she likes historical anything and classic anything, so she infuses it into her work. Same way Dylan had that tert-Ni fixation going on, where most of his songs barely make any kind of direct sense.

There's also probably no other singer out there right now that I'd want to bone more. Even though I know it would be disappointing.

You don't know what Si is. Have a nice day.

 

[Tennessee Jed]

I don't take advice from Camille Paglia, Gloria Steinham, or anyone from the old school, except maybe a little Germaine Greer. I'm interested in the first and third wave, though I acknowledge and respect second wave pioneers, their opinions are no longer relevant in regards to feminism in art.

Oh, by the way. ...Camille Paglia may be an expert in second wave feminism, but she's not a musician. Lana del Rey has a broader vocal range than many popular singers, including the howling Arianna Grande, and Ultraviolence was the first pop album in fifty years to use a live seven piece band without a bunch of electronic fiddling and autotune. Lana's music is influenced by jazz and blues, so has more complexity than some of the 60s bubble gum crooning she's influenced by, ironically.

Oh and ..here's another example of Paglia's "genius"...she hates lesbians? What a great feminist expert she must be! She'd be the last person I'd ask about representative feminine archetypes, I don't even think that's her forte, though I agree with her on Clinton

Camille Paglia - 'I don't get along with lesbians at all. They don't like me, and I don't like them' | Features | Culture | The Independent

It's not even funny for a woman attracted to women to say she hates lesbians, and apparently can't get along with other women. Why is that? Does she actually not understand or genuinely like other women? Is she a narcissist?

Seriously, popular art has to be viewed with a lens which comprehends the feeling of an era. I don't think Paglia or Steinham understand Millenial women. It bothers me.

Still... Whether or not you like Paglia, the videos of other "torch songs" (Garland, Streisand, Sade) that Paglia linked in her "Zombie Time" column are obviously miles beyond Lana Del Rey in terms of raw talent. The Sade video in particular is stunning.

(By the way, that's a great article about Paglia that you yourself linked. I hadn't seen that before. It sums up very well Camille Paglia's life and career. Being from the same generation and time period as her, I like Paglia and I agree with much of her politics and opinions, myself.)

A tangent:

I generally don't like "torch songs." Too sentimental and maudlin for my taste. (And that goes double for Lana Del Rey.) In the old days, "torch songs" used to be a staple of lounge, cabaret, and burlesque shows. But the "torch songs" would get so heavy and soap-opera-y, that "torch songs" ended up getting satirized for fun and just to lighten the mood: The song would start out being about frustrated love and then turn in an unexpected direction. Those sorts of satirical "torch songs" were often quite good. A couple examples:

A famous song ("I'm Tired") performed by Madeline Kahn in the movie "Blazing Saddles":

Link: I'm Tired Madeline Kahn Blazing Saddles - YouTube

A song ("Svelte") performed in a drag queen bar from the movie (aptly titled) "Torch Song Trilogy":

Link: Drag Performance: Torch Song Trilogy 2 - YouTube

Now, those are "torch songs" that I can truly enjoy.

Anyway, "torch songs" have a long and complex history. Lana Del Rey gets credit for reviving and updating the genre a bit. But she isn't the best at it, by far.

 

[anticlimatic]

You don't know what Si is. Have a nice day.

You don't know what I know. Have a shit day, you (insult redacted).

 

[Thalassa]

Still... Whether or not you like Paglia, the videos of other "torch songs" (Garland, Streisand, Sade) that Paglia linked in her "Zombie Time" column are obviously miles beyond Lana Del Rey in terms of raw talent. The Sade video in particular is stunning.

(By the way, that's a great article about Paglia that you yourself linked. I hadn't seen that before. It sums up very well Camille Paglia's life and career. Being from the same generation and time period as her, I like Paglia and I agree with much of her politics and opinions, myself.)

A tangent:

I generally don't like "torch songs." Too sentimental and maudlin for my taste. (And that goes double for Lana Del Rey.) In the old days, "torch songs" used to be a staple of lounge, cabaret, and burlesque shows. But the "torch songs" would get so heavy and soap-opera-y, that "torch songs" ended up getting satirized for fun and just to lighten the mood: The song would start out being about frustrated love and then turn in an unexpected direction. Those sorts of satirical "torch songs" were often quite good. A couple examples:

A famous song ("I'm Tired") performed by Madeline Kahn in the movie "Blazing Saddles":

Link: I'm Tired Madeline Kahn Blazing Saddles - YouTube

A song ("Svelte") performed in a drag queen bar from the movie (aptly titled) "Torch Song Trilogy":

Link: Drag Performance: Torch Song Trilogy 2 - YouTube

Now, those are "torch songs" that I can truly enjoy.

Anyway, "torch songs" have a long and complex history. Lana Del Rey gets credit for reviving and updating the genre a bit. But she isn't the best at it, by far.

I really don't care. Camille Paglia is universally despised by other feminists for constantly attacking other women, including her peers. She's called an anti-feminist feminist among other things - I really could not give a fuck what kind of music you like either, since this is a thread about feminine archetypes and the quality of Lana's music, which has been hailed by musical critics, though it's too complex to have the popular success that people understand as "pop" since one has to have a musical ear or training to even be able to listen to complex music (this is a fact, not something I pulled out of my ass). Camille Paglia probably hasn't even listened to Ultraviolence or Honeymoon, and just is talking about Blue Jeans or something.

Seriously, you coming up in here and touting the most nasty, woman-hating narcissistic "feminist" of the 60s, and calling her an expert because she's a professor, is pretty comical to me

I like Madeline Kahn too, that's really all I can agree with you on.

 

[Thalassa]

You don't know what I know. Have a shit day, you (insult redacted).

Your understanding of Si being about history is incorrect. It's only about "history" in terms of one's personal history, not history as a subject. No need to insult me.

 

[anticlimatic]

Your understanding of Si being about history is incorrect. It's only about "history" in terms of one's personal history, not history as a subject. No need to insult me.

It wasn't an insult. It was an accurate description of you based on empirical data rather than presumption. Try it sometime.

If you utilized Si at all maybe you'd understand. One's personal history is intimately connected with history the subject. If someone grew up inside a style and a culture, you bet your ass that style and culture is going to play a large role in an introverted sensor's tastes, particularly if it's Si in the tertiary position. If that style and culture is a manifestation of an older style and culture, you can bet your ass it's also going to play a large role in their tastes.

 

[Thalassa]

It wasn't an insult. It was an accurate description of you based on empirical data rather than presumption. Try it sometime.

If you utilized Si at all maybe you'd understand. One's personal history is intimately connected with history the subject. If someone grew up inside a style and a culture, you bet your ass that style and culture is going to play a large role in an introverted sensor's tastes, particularly if it's Si in the tertiary position. If that style and culture is a manifestation of an older style and culture, you can bet your ass it's also going to play a large role in their tastes.

No its not a factually accurate description, whatever you said was insulting enough to be erased.

Lana del Rey didn't have a lot of exposure to popular culture as a child. She mostly listened to things like classical and jazz, which is why her music stands out from a lot of other pop music.

Most people argue that she's either Se/Ni, or Ni/Se, like David Lynch. I'm not going to argue with you about her type, especially since you're so disrespectful, but also because that's not even the point of this thread.

 

[kyuuei]

I don't think I can call anyone who's well known enough to be on the radio outside of mainstream.. I mean, she doesn't sound like hip hop or like pop music today that's for sure.. between something like Meghan Trainor and Lana Del Rey, I'd give the artism and depth to del Rey all day... but she IS mainstream. The same way I feel Tool is... still popular enough that people know who they are, but not really being overplayed on the radio either (besides the summertime sadness remix).

... But I don't really get the whole Goddess representation thing for Eck's reasons entirely. She's a singer. She's a talented one, not the most talented one I've heard, but she does have talent and does what she does well.. but a goddess? Nope. No no no. She's very pretty, and she does have a particular style... but I don't know if that puts her in any form of godliness.

I find some of her songs haunting and lovely, and others really... boring and repetitive. Summertime Sadness and Ride I liked.. but Bad Disease and.. whatever else the other one was about $100 bills was pretty boring to me honestly.

She comes across as pretentious at times, but most art does. It isn't annoying enough to overshadow her songs. She does have songs in a variety of characters, and I would even venture to say she is representing characters in these songs that are outside of mainstream women.. Ride is a good example of that to me. Doing it on purpose? I'd hope so, since she's writing these songs and characters herself. But is she truly what I would think of for representation of non main stream women? Nah.

And at the end of the day, she is a slave to how she looks like most other women are, as evidenced by the fact she still uses make up appropriately, got her face touched up, goes out of her way to look good for music videos, etc. etc. I don't dislike her for that.. most people really are slaves to their looks, particularly when they're already born good looking. But it puts her in perspective too.

I'm obviously not a big fan of her work, though I think she's a good singer and like a few of her songs here and there and I even think her style is pretty neat at times. I don't see why people obsess over her, but then again I don't expect people to understand the things I obsess over either.

 

[1487610420]

title reminds me of that raptor wizard guy

to the OP: idk if it's true expression or sock puppet for sales, there's nothing novel about it, all her singing peers play the same game.

 

[anticlimatic]

No its not a factually accurate description, whatever you said was insulting enough to be erased.

Lana del Rey didn't have a lot of exposure to popular culture as a child. She mostly listened to things like classical and jazz, which is why her music stands out from a lot of other pop music.

Most people argue that she's either Se/Ni, or Ni/Se, like David Lynch. I'm not going to argue with you about her type, especially since you're so disrespectful, but also because that's not even the point of this thread.

I don't care what other people type her as. I type her as tert-Si, therefore INFP.
I also classify her as not as bright as she wants to portray herself.
And I apologize that a factually accurate description of yourself is bad enough to be erased. That's tough.

 

[kyuuei]

I was kinda hesitant about sharing it because people have been mean to me when I say I like Lana and/or why I like her. One of my friends straight up said "she is just doing it for attention" and he also treated me like that all the time, which actually really harmed me. And I became ashamed of the reason I liked her/could find myself in her.
I do feel like she is deeply attached to her image, but I also think there is a deep fear behind it. But I don't want to sound presumptuous either by saying she has nothing "of substance" to offer.

Well, that dude is a total douche and the next time someone says that I'd remind them that they'd whore out their attention in a heart beat for a fraction of the money and talent she has and that their thinly veiled passive aggressive attacks on the things you like are about as needed as a tiger tongue rim job.

 

[Thalassa]

I don't think I can call anyone who's well known enough to be on the radio outside of mainstream.. I mean, she doesn't sound like hip hop or like pop music today that's for sure.. between something like Meghan Trainor and Lana Del Rey, I'd give the artism and depth to del Rey all day... but she IS mainstream. The same way I feel Tool is... still popular enough that people know who they are, but not really being overplayed on the radio either (besides the summertime sadness remix).

... But I don't really get the whole Goddess representation thing for Eck's reasons entirely. She's a singer. She's a talented one, not the most talented one I've heard, but she does have talent and does what she does well.. but a goddess? Nope. No no no. She's very pretty, and she does have a particular style... but I don't know if that puts her in any form of godliness.

I find some of her songs haunting and lovely, and others really... boring and repetitive. Summertime Sadness and Ride I liked.. but Bad Disease and.. whatever else the other one was about $100 bills was pretty boring to me honestly.

She comes across as pretentious at times, but most art does. It isn't annoying enough to overshadow her songs. She does have songs in a variety of characters, and I would even venture to say she is representing characters in these songs that are outside of mainstream women.. Ride is a good example of that to me. Doing it on purpose? I'd hope so, since she's writing these songs and characters herself. But is she truly what I would think of for representation of non main stream women? Nah.

And at the end of the day, she is a slave to how she looks like most other women are, as evidenced by the fact she still uses make up appropriately, got her face touched up, goes out of her way to look good for music videos, etc. etc. I don't dislike her for that.. most people really are slaves to their looks, particularly when they're already born good looking. But it puts her in perspective too.

I'm obviously not a big fan of her work, though I think she's a good singer and like a few of her songs here and there and I even think her style is pretty neat at times. I don't see why people obsess over her, but then again I don't expect people to understand the things I obsess over either.

Goddess archetype. Archetypes. Art. Some people are writing their dissertations on her music, but thank you for at least staying on topic, unlike some others.

Actually just to be clear again, I said goddess archetype, not that I literally believe she is a goddess. And by "mainstream women" I didn't mean radio play, I meant patriarchal Virgin/Wife/Mother/Good girl/Crone...the rejected archetypes such as Whore/Mistress/Bad girl/Needy-Dependent/Sexually Aggressive/Mentally Ill/Wild Woman/Lesbian, etc.

 

[Thalassa]

I was kinda hesitant about sharing it because people have been mean to me when I say I like Lana and/or why I like her. One of my friends straight up said "she is just doing it for attention" and he also treated me like that all the time, which actually really harmed me. And I became ashamed of the reason I liked her/could find myself in her.
I do feel like she is deeply attached to her image, but I also think there is a deep fear behind it. But I don't want to sound presumptuous either by saying she has nothing "of substance" to offer.

Yeah people are really weirdly mean about her, without even ever hearing her full spectrum of talent, which is why I mention all her major albums, plus post May Jailer and mix tape Lizzy Grant when I try to seriously discuss her, because a lot of people aren't musical beyond what they hear on the radio, and what they have heard are principally pop songs from Born to Die...I like Born to Die, but it's a got hip hop and pop undertones more so than Ultraviolence, or Honeymoon.

Most of the people who criticize her, or you, have likely never even heard 75 percent of her music, nor paid attention to the carefully constructed characters she has played, the videos she's made , they likely don't know her sister Chuck is one of her main photographers.

People have a dismissive attitude towards popular culture in general, though I don't really comprehend why they have such low regard for musicians, when they can probably go on and on in depth about film. That's really hypocritical and ignorant.

Also, the point I have tried to make where women's music - especially when focused towards women (Lana once expressed surprise that so many straight men were fans, though gay men adore her) - is treated as having lesser value in general, and is likely only taken seriously when the singer fits some second wave feminist stereotype.

I love the first wave, first wave was about equal rights, love the inclusive third wave, find the second wave a cesspool of elderly white upper middle class women arguing on what the "ideal" feminist is, in academia. I don't hate them, they did make some power moves. ...but I largely blame the second wave for making the stereotype of a feminist masculine, that she can't care about her appearance at all, that she has to do it all, be a leader in the patriarchy. ...when I recognize feminine energy as something apart from gender, which is why the third wave included LGBTQ, sex workers, and issues pertaining to various races, classes and even how men are harmed by the patriarchy.

Camille Paglia also doesn't like many of her contemporaries, I certainly don't care about what she thinks of Elizabeth Grant, or any of the second wave types, tbh, because Lana makes being feminine powerful.

 

[Thalassa]

I don't care what other people type her as. I type her as tert-Si, therefore INFP.
I also classify her as not as bright as she wants to portray herself.
And I apologize that a factually accurate description of yourself is bad enough to be erased. That's tough.

I think you don't know the difference between subjective and objective criticism, I don't care what you think her type is, or anything else really, since you're awful and completely off topic.

 

[Thalassa]

title reminds me of that raptor wizard guy

to the OP: idk if it's true expression or sock puppet for sales, there's nothing novel about it, all her singing peers play the same game.

Well she wasn't doing anything of the kind in the beginning of her career, which is why I refer to her May Jailer and Lizzy Grant stuff, and in terms of her contemporaries. ..Taylor Swift blatantly copied her, and Katie Perry has mimicked her style. So to say they're doing the same thing so flippantly indicates to me a lack of observation on your end. Even Meghan Trainor copied her style in the All About That Bass video, though I wouldn't say Trainor literally copied LDR like Taylor Swift in Wildest Dreams, for MT it was more of a visual influence. To be clear I like Meghan Trainor, and realize everyone is influenced by someone. I think she's also influenced by Amy Winehouse. But Lana did most of this stuff they've mimicked first, she was doing it back as Lizzy Grant, before Born to Die, before she was famous, I have a copy of a video of her singing in a shitty bar wearing her flower crown with short blonde hair, singing Mermaid Motel. ...I'm not really happy with Taylor Swift though. I used to like some of Taylor's songs, but she's turned into a complete poseur.

Also, I like some of Katy Perry's songs like Firework, but Lana has a musically complex distinctive style. Am I claiming she's more complex than Amy Winehouse, or Adele? No way. But she's on that level, and for Lana it's much more conceptual, she has her own distinctive style, while Adele is more of a classical operatic influence.

To mention Katy Perry one last time, to set up a good parllel: the way Lana presented Summertime Sadness and Chelsea Hotel is much more mature and about expression of her own deep feelings, or at least to represent that respectfully, while Perry's I Kissed a Girl is adolescent, and I would argue she exploited it simply for the entertainment of straight men.

I sincerely think Lana was trying to connect to people like herself (other than obviously wanting her job to be writing and performing music). That's the difference. Plus she doesn't need the money, and she has stated that in interviews. After Born to Die she took complete creative control.

 

[1487610420]

Well she wasn't doing anything of the kind in the beginning of her career, which is why I refer to her May Jailer and Lizzy Grant stuff, and in terms of her contemporaries. ..Taylor Swift blatantly copied her, and Katie Perry has mimicked her style. So to say they're doing the same thing so flippantly indicates to me a lack of observation on your end. Even Meghan Trainor copied her style in the All About That Bass video, though I wouldn't say Trainor literally copied LDR like Taylor Swift in Wildest Dreams, for MT it was more of a visual influence.

Also, I like some of Katy Perry's songs like Firework, but Lana has a musically complex distinctive style. Am I claiming she's more complex than Amy Winehouse, or Adele? No way. But she's on that level, and for Lana it's much more conceptual, she has her own distinctive style, while Adele is more of a classical operatic influence.

To mention Katy Perry one last time, to set up a good parllel: the way Lana presented Summertime Sadness and Chelsea Hotel is much more mature and about expression of her own deep feelings, or at least to represent that respectfully, while Perry's I Kissed a Girl is adolescent, and I would argue she exploited it simply for the entertainment of straight men.

I sincerely think Lana was trying to connect to people like herself. That's the difference. Plus she doesn't need the money, and she has stated that in interviews. After Born to Die she took complete creative control.

The way you emphasize each singer's presentation makes me think you place a potentially naive weight on the % they contribute to the product the media shows vs the actual ppl in the industry they work with behind to scenes to put things together, who were around before they each came along, and traditionally is responsible for a lot of those canned similarities being fed to the consumer, and for good reason: it sells.

 

[Thalassa]

The way you emphasize each singer's presentation makes me think you place a potentially naive weight on the % they contribute to the product the media shows vs the actual ppl in the industry they work with behind to scenes to put things together, who were around before they each came along, and traditionally is responsible for a lot of those canned similarities being fed to the consumer, and for good reason: it sells.

Do you really know anything about Lana del Rey, or Lizzy Grant before she was famous? You're just disregarding me, is what it seems like, because what I'm telling you is that Lana del Rey has a unique, complex sound. She had her own style before she was famous. SO, the pop produced by Perry, Swift, and Trainor is definitely simpler and louder. And I said I did like some of their songs. BUT I consider them pop performers, while I consider Elizabeth Grant an artist, like Adele or Amy Winehouse. Katy, Taylor and Meghan all have borrowed from the style Lana had before she even became famous. Visually, she was a trend setter. Musically none of them can match her - though Taylor Swift actually used to write her own songs, none of them have the complexity of Lana on Ultraviolence, or Honeymoon. Taylor BLATANTLY went from this cute, shy, hipster girl to seriously lifting a little too much from Lana. Wildest Dreams is like Wal Mart knock off, of an original designed dress. I also noticed Taylor went "darker" after Lana, too, though Blank Space is characteristically perky for how psychotic it is (the last Taylor Swift song I may ever enjoy, she really bothers me on a fundamental level now).

If you aren't actually familiar with all of these things, how can you even propose to make such a generalized statement?