John Lennon

[BlueScreen]

"I believe in everything until it's disproved."

I wouldn't mind seeing the ENTJs comments on this. I know it is very ENFP and Ne, but I don't think it isn't ENTJ. They seem to be very open to ideas and creativity. And INTJs seem to be massively into fantasy.

 

[Jeffster]

Get an NTJ behind these ideas, and you have one productive activist, inspirationalist, and idealist. It's not what you believe in and feel, but how you believe in it and how you feel about it.

Does he like the idea of believing in these things? Does it add to the type of character he sees himself as? It's the ego telling him who he is. He has an identity he's trying to view himself as.

I can't possibly see him as an NF.

I don't know why people always automatically associate NF with concepts of faith and mysticism, and stereotype NTs as strictly logical, intellectual, pragmatistical pessemists. Lennon wasn't that, yet he is clearly an NT. Ghandi was an INTJ, as was Jesus, in my opinion. They knew what they believed in and executed it in a very NTJ fashion. They focused on it, they took it to the max, not letting their guard down.

I dunno what to say to this except I disagree with pretty much all of it. If Ghandi is an INTJ, then the whole typing system is meaningless and we should just scrap it. Dude is pretty much the prototype for NF. And guess who's the #2 choice? Lennon! Focusing on something does not make you an NT.

 

[maliafee]

I dunno what to say to this except I disagree with pretty much all of it. If Ghandi is an INTJ, then the whole typing system is meaningless and we should just scrap it. Dude is pretty much the prototype for NF. And guess who's the #2 choice? Lennon! Focusing on something does not make you an NT.

Really?

But my big brother is INTJ (and my little one is ENTJ... so looky what a perfect position I'm in for this conversation haha) and he actually reminds me of ghandi!!! I don't understand why ghandi HAS to be NF. I'm not sure people don't sometimes OVERtype people, if you know what I mean. He did x and felt x therefore he must be NF, SP, etc... Not really accurate.

Portrait of an INTJ:
My INTJ brother was very sensitive and sweet growing up. Saved me from a mean neighbor dog that would chase us home from the bus stop every day. Saved me all his treats or pictures from school when I was too little to go myself. But very intellectually detached and as a teenager would hole up in his room for days reading and come down every 12 hours to get more cold bagels. Thin, almost emaciated. An activist. Very righteous about his causes. Extremely anti-violence, anti-death penalty, anti-war. He would lend me 10 bucks growing up and then want it paid back right away, but as an adult he has lent me $100 and refused repayment. He is very kind and interested in his family and is incredibly loyal to his INTP fiancee. Logic reigns supreme in argument, discussion, but kindness and love towards his family never wavers (though he is not effusive or mushy). I kiss my parents on the lips as a greeting when I haven't seen them in a long time and my ESTP brother but NOT my other brothers, especially not the INTJ. But if you ask me who I am truly closest with, who knows the most about me and I about him and who have I confided in and been confided in -- the INTJ! (I have three other brothers: ENFJ, ESTP, ENTJ.) The INTJ is also the one who judges me the least and who is the most accepting and open when it comes to judging other people.

Why couldn't he be ghandi's type, or, better, why couldn't ghandi have been this (INTJ) type?!

As for Lennon, just knowing his views isn't enough. You gotta look at his life, his treatment of his first wife, his pants down at brothels, his lion-like determination and leadership, and a whole host of other things. I know ENTJs and they have a definite romantic streak - not even streak, bent.

P.S. Haven't you all noticed that it is T's who can seen the most emotionally frail or childlike? That's because they have less control of F than F's... right?

 

[Lady_X]

you guys are confusing me! stop it!

 

[Salomé]

INTP

 

[Lady_X]

INTP

hey...that's what my intp friend said...interesting.

i'd love to hear your reasons too if you feel like it.

 

[Quinlan]

Malia, are you sure you're brother is a T?

 

[JocktheMotie]

I don't know enough about his writing and musical method to know otherwise, as I don't listen to the Beatles or any of his things personally. However I would guess INFP. But others with more knowledge seem to think INTP.

I don't see it at all.

 

[FemMecha]

INFP although I don't think INFJ is impossible. I don't see Lennon as even close to being INTP. He is an Idealist not a Rationalist.

A dream you dream alone is only a dream. A dream you dream together is reality.

Everything is clearer when you're in love.

Yeah we all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun.

God is a concept by which we measure our pain

All we are saying is give peace a chance.

I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the here and now?

I don't believe in killing whatever the reason!

I'm not going to change the way I look or the way I feel to conform to anything. I've always been a freak. So I've been a freak all my life and I have to live with that, you know. I'm one of those people.

If someone thinks that love and peace is a cliche that must have been left behind in the Sixties, that's his problem. Love and peace are eternal.

Imagine all the people living life in peace. You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us, and the world will be as one.

We've got this gift of love, but love is like a precious plant. You can't just accept it and leave it in the cupboard or just think it's going to get on by itself. You've got to keep watering it. You've got to really look after it and nurture it.

That is the quintessential INFP

 

[maliafee]

Malia, are you sure you're brother is a T?

Yes, yes, and yes. I've never met a stronger one. As me any question you want to narrow it down. I won't bother listing the reasons because all I have to do is copy and paste INTJ profile descriptions in their entirity and put them here. ;-)

I talked more about his loving side because I want to underline to F types that T's are loving and can exhibit feeling. Just because they are T's doesn't make them devoid of that. No, he's not outwardly emotional, but if you get to know him he is inherently kind to those few he cares about. He can go through terrible things (like the breakup he had with his ex which I know hurt him deeply and caused him to attempt suicide) but you would never know because you ask him and he says he's doing "ok" with no emotion attached. Two years later I find out what really happened only because he mentions it to help explain something else... and I'm like, "What?!" This is a very signature INTJ trait. He is also a systems builder and collects information in the most massive quantity imaginable. He is competitive at card games and quickly becomes an expert at any he tries, analyzing the game and making a system to win, and if you argue with him about anything logical he can get you to be frustrated to tears while he cooly and calmly sits back, secure in his accurate defense, and confused at your rash emotionality.

Ok, I just started to explain his T-ness, like I said I wouldn't. Need any other proof though? ;P

 

[ajblaise]

I'd definitely say INTP.

I think people are quick to label musicians as INFPs. He also had very idealist sociopolitical views, which might cause one to think he is NF. But I always thought he came across as very calm, detached, analytical, and theoretical. It was the 60s, and the NT rationalists of the time were more likely to sympathize with NF style idealism.

 

[FemMecha]

I'd definitely say INTP.

I think people are quick to label musicians as INFPs. He also had very idealist sociopolitical views, which might cause one to think he is NF. But I always thought he came across as very calm, detached, analytical, and theoretical. It was the 60s, and the NT rationalists of the time were more likely to sympathize with NF style idealism.

There is a drive to categorize men as Ts and women as Fs. He talks about believing in everything until disproven, including fairies and dragons because dreams could be as real as reality. That reveals a thought process not an end-goal ideal towards which to build a system of thinking. Also considering murder wrong no matter the circumstance? How do you think those views would go over at INTPc? I can see an NT holding to the ideal of peace, but might find rational arguments to build towards that ideal. I hear an idealist argument towards an ideal goal. If there are quotes that demonstrate Lennon using logical processes to reach the ideal of world peace, then that would make a compelling case for INTP type. A feeling about his demeanor can be strongly influenced by personal assumptions which may not be accurate.

What would he need to be like to be an actual NF in that setting? It's difficult for me to imagine a more perfect match for the descriptions of INFP including the calm, dreamy nature. I wonder if the false stereotypes of Fs causes people to assume they aren't calm and detached or something? Idealists who value interpersonal peace and who are dreamers by nature are possibly more calm and detached than an INT who can enjoy conflict for its ability to explore ideas.

 

[Quinlan]

Ok, I just started to explain his T-ness, like I said I wouldn't. Need any other proof though? ;P

Nope, I see now you were more describing mostly his F side in the first description, if the first description you gave was all I had to go on I would definitely say F.

 

[ajblaise]

There is a drive to categorize men as Ts and women as Fs. His quotes about believing in everything until disproven, including fairies and dragons because dreams could be as real as reality sounds like an INTP expressing like an NF to you? Also considering murder wrong no matter the circumstance? How do you think those views would go over at INTPc?

What would he need to be like to be an actual NF in that setting? It's difficult for me to imagine a more perfect match for the descriptions of INFP including the calm, dreamy nature. I wonder if the false stereotypes of Fs causes people to assume they aren't calm and detached or something? Idealists who value interpersonal peace and who are dreamers by nature are possibly more calm and detached than an INT who can enjoy conflict for its ability to explore ideas.

If I got high out of my mind of LSD and weed, and went to INTPc, my ideas probably wouldn't go over well either. I think his drug use and being swept up in a very idealistic period in history, can account for his perceived NFness.

And I do think he enjoyed instigated conflict in relation to his ideas. Like with his "War Is Over! If you want it" campaign.

 

[FemMecha]

If I got high out of my mind of LSD and weed, and went to INTPc, my ideas probably wouldn't go over well either. I think his drug use and being swept up in a very idealistic period in history, can account for his perceived NFness.

And I do think he enjoyed instigated conflict in relation to his ideas. Like with his "War Is Over! If you want it" campaign.

So, NFs are equivalent to NTs on drugs? ha!

It would be interesting if he were INTP, but I suspect there would be some evidence in his words that he was fundamentally logical by nature. I can look for some, but if you have access to any that would be useful in making the case for INTP.

 

[ajblaise]

So, NFs are equivalent to NTs on drugs? ha!

It would be interesting if he were INTP, but I suspect there would be some evidence in his words that he was fundamentally logical by nature. I can look for some, but if you have access to any that would be useful in making the case for INTP.

Now that I'm looking over his quotes, there is a lot of hyperbole and idealism. But I find ones like these to have a logical base:

The basic thing nobody asks is why do people take drugs of any sort? Why do we have these accessories to normal living to live? I mean, is there something wrong with society that's making us so pressurized, that we cannot live without guarding ourselves against it?
John Lennon

The thing the sixties did was to show us the possibilities and the responsibility that we all had. It wasn't the answer. It just gave us a glimpse of the possibility.
John Lennon

If you tried to give rock and roll another name, you might call it 'Chuck Berry'.
John Lennon (I just thought this one was funny)

 

[the state i am in]

he doesn't seem conceptual whatsoever. he doesn't seem like he takes apart problems in complex (thinking-objective) ways. he has the intp/infp detachment, aloofness, like he wears a really strong mask so he does not allow any color of feeling to slip out into the public spotlight. until the whole yoko thing. which seems very premeditated and like it was her doing more than his.

i don't know the lennon story apart from all of the iconography built up around him. he seems infp to me more than intp, just more of an english working class bar-brawl infp than most of the lovey-dovey ones we know. somewhat unhealthy, not exactly helped by his beatlemania trip. when he got a chance to make a big splash, make changes, etc, he certainly sounds like what's been festering inside of him is far more fp than tp. an intp would talk, talk, talk when he got the mic. mwahaha listen to me! Ti does not run out of things to say, it has been storing them and organizing ideas for a lifetime. i feel like we listen to him bc it is subjectively felt and resonates more than it is perceptive and objectively true/accurate/insightful.

also, oh yoko to me is the icing on the cake. and the only john lennon song worth falling in love with (thank you wes anderson/mark mothersbaugh!). imagine sounds like a slowed-down billy joel song, and that's not a compliment.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

John Lennon = INTP

 

[BlueScreen]

he doesn't seem conceptual whatsoever. he doesn't seem like he takes apart problems in complex (thinking-objective) ways. he has the intp/infp detachment, aloofness, like he wears a really strong mask so he does not allow any color of feeling to slip out into the public spotlight. until the whole yoko thing. which seems very premeditated and like it was her doing more than his.

i don't know the lennon story apart from all of the iconography built up around him. he seems infp to me more than intp, just more of an english working class bar-brawl infp than most of the lovey-dovey ones we know. somewhat unhealthy, not exactly helped by his beatlemania trip. when he got a chance to make a big splash, make changes, etc, he certainly sounds like what's been festering inside of him is far more fp than tp. an intp would talk, talk, talk when he got the mic. mwahaha listen to me! Ti does not run out of things to say, it has been storing them and organizing ideas for a lifetime. i feel like we listen to him bc it is subjectively felt and resonates more than it is perceptive and objectively true/accurate/insightful.

also, oh yoko to me is the icing on the cake. and the only john lennon song worth falling in love with (thank you wes anderson/mark mothersbaugh!). imagine sounds like a slowed-down billy joel song, and that's not a compliment.

You haven't listened to him much I'm guessing? He's a creative visionary to the max. And I wouldn't dismiss Ti or Te, because he made an art of saying it perfectly. Take in my life (voted song of century by other musicians).

There are places I'll remember all my life, though some have changed. Some forever not for better. Some have gone and some remain. All these places have their moments, with lovers and friends, i still can recall. Some are dead and some are living. In my life I've loved them all.

But of all these friends and lovers there is no one compares with you. And these memories lose their meaning when i think of love as something new. Though I know I'll never lose affection for people and things that went before. I know I'll often stop and think about them.. In my life, I love you more.

That is purely conceptual. He didn't write it as a structured philosophical text, but the philosophical part is the key to the song, and is what creates the emotional part. It is defining a perspective where the situation is real, but is seen in a better light. Which is actually drawing me to NFP again, with an E. I still think from interviews and life though that he is ENTJ.

 

[527468]

Please stop saying he's a T. It's getting extremely annoying. I've memorized hundreds of Lennon's words and listened to tons of interviews.

He's a gifted and creative INFJ.