[MBTI General] ISTJs Explained By ISTJs: Post your questions here!

[IZthe411]

The more I get into TypoC, the more I see how grossly misunderstood my type is.

In order to help dispel any misunderstandings about the Guardians, please post your questions here, and at the least I'll try to give you an objective, unbiased answer. Being that I'm a 31 year old male, I have some experience to back up what I'm saying, not just speculation. Of course all of the other ISTJs on this board are welcome to share their thoughts and experiences.

Hopefully this is a helpful thread.

 

[Giggly]

I find that most people who do the SJ bashing are not interested in understanding SJs in general. Mostly they want to play the rare and special victim because there are certain easy perks and rewards that come with acting that way. And to continue with those rewards they have to create and keep up an "Us. Vs. them" attitude so they won't ever be interested in understanding and getting along with SJ's.

You'll find that the people who do want to understand SJs will come to the SJ section and ask genuine questions themselves and won't do any S or SJ bashing. They know it's stupid.

 

[IZthe411]

I find that most people who do the SJ bashing are not interested in understanding SJs in general. Mostly they want to play the rare and special victim because there are certain easy perks and rewards that come with acting that way. And to continue with those rewards they have to create and keep up an "Us. Vs. them" attitude so they won't ever be interested in understanding and getting along with SJ's.

You'll find that the people who do want to understand SJs will come to the SJ section and ask genuine questions themselves and won't do any S or SJ bashing. They know it's stupid.

Giggly, you know it's funny I can see that permeated in some of the attitudes. But this is out here for those that really want to know.

 

[2XtremeENFP]

Ok... do ISTJs follow Norms of Society, or Norms of What They Know (Values [Fi], Family, Traditions....)

 

[IZthe411]

Ok... do ISTJs follow Norms of Society, or Norms of What They Know (Values [Fi], Family, Traditions....)

Good question. Thanks

ISTJs follow norms, not based on society or traditions, but what they themselves have accepted as 'normal'. I think we have this reputation due to the earliest observations of type showing ISTJs most tied to what was normal and acceptable at that time. But that's not the case.

ISTJs don't just blindly follow any and everything. Most of the time, they are the last to join the crowd- if they join at all. Before accepting anything, they have to be won over, in a sense. You win them over by a combination of experience and facts, not just one or the other. Since that's the case, you cannot typify or expect us to all be alike- facts are constant, and in most cases, unchanging, but experiences of ISTJs differ like everyone else. So it's very easy to have a group of ISTJs and all of them differ in their 'norms'.

 

[2XtremeENFP]

Good question. Thanks

ISTJs follow norms, not based on society or traditions, but what they themselves have accepted as 'normal'. I think we have this reputation due to the earliest observations of type showing ISTJs most tied to what was normal and acceptable at that time. But that's not the case.

ISTJs don't just blindly follow any and everything. Most of the time, they are the last to join the crowd- if they join at all. Before accepting anything, they have to be won over, in a sense. You win them over by a combination of experience and facts, not just one or the other. Since that's the case, you cannot typify or expect us to all be alike- facts are constant, and in most cases, unchanging, but experiences of ISTJs differ like everyone else. So it's very easy to have a group of ISTJs and all of them differ in their 'norms'.

Great answer! Thanks

 

[raz]

I follow norms that I observe from other people or from what has been done before. Since I lack the intuition or adaptability to grasp something quickly without prior knowledge, I have to do research, survey what I'm going to get into, find out how others do it, how others have reacted to it, how well it's worked. This is just an information gathering stage, though for me. I follow norms that allow my life to function properly, and rely greatly on the norms that are reliable and predictable.

However, as I look at something that I'm going to accept as fact or as a new skill, it goes through two levels of analysis, the extraverted thinking and introverted feeling. I have to objectively analyze it in terms of cause and effect, logical systems and predictable reality. Once it's been scrutinized by logic and "perfected," I have to put it through another level of analysis to make it morally sound.

Unless it's absolutely 100% required for my task at hand, I will not do something that asks me to degrade another human being or betray myself. I have a personal responsibility as a human being to treat everyone around me as an equal and look at them through objective eyes....without the consequences of not following social norms or sound logical reasoning. The reason I do this, is because I have to stop and think about that person feels without the external problem that is making me judge them. Those problems can be changed or fixed, if they are important enough, but a human being is more important than anything and deserves compassion.

Everyone is capable of doing anything, belonging to anything or having any external object to describe them. Using their logical reasoning skills or a social categorization as a method of evaluating a person is flawed and illogical because it completely ignores the unique aspect of free will. This is likely why I will have a hard time understanding Fe for the rest of my life. I use Si and Te to reduce the impersonal parts of my life to cut and dry systems so that I can see what is absolutely required. I see no problem with that because I'm still able to live as a normal human being that is able to employ empathy in human relations. Introverted Feeling can be complicated, but it can be even more complicated when you view its usage in an IxTJ.

 

[2XtremeENFP]

.

Everyone is capable of doing anything, belonging to anything or having any external object to describe them. Using their logical reasoning skills or a social categorization as a method of evaluating a person is flawed and illogical because it completely ignores the unique aspect of free will. This is likely why I will have a hard time understanding Fe for the rest of my life. I use Si and Te to reduce the impersonal parts of my life to cut and dry systems so that I can see what is absolutely required. I see no problem with that because I'm still able to live as a normal human being that is able to employ empathy in human relations. Introverted Feeling can be complicated, but it can be even more complicated when you view its usage in an IxTJ.

I would love to hear more about the bolded sections. But maybe use NF language because sometimes my head hurts when I see so much "T" language

 

[raz]

I would love to hear more about the bolded sections. But maybe use NF language because sometimes my head hurts when I see so much "T" language

I tend to divide my relations with other people into categories of personal relation. How much do they mean to me? Do they have a strong emotional attachment to me or is my relationship with them necessary for an impersonal obligation, i.e. a hobby or career? A stronger emotional attachment just increases my sense of responsibility to the person. Dealing with a person in an impersonal relationship is like playing chess, making strategic moves for desired outcomes.

If you evaluate a person's worth as a human being by their ability to do complex mental work that a certain personality would find simple, then you are evaluating them against a system that just plain doesn't come naturally to them. It doesn't make sense. I'd rather evaluate someone by their character if it were a personal relationship because their ability to deal with any given situation or their sense of morals is far more important to me as sufficient evaluation. Everything that we do is external, based on perception and personal preference, no one is better than anyone else because we only limit ourselves to what we're capable of perceiving or understanding.

This topic is more relevant to me because I was in an argument with my ESFJ mother about our neighbors. She found out our neighbors are low income country people that she finds to be....weird? Somehow she doesn't like living in this neighborhood because of it and I tried convincing her that even though I approve of her moving at any time, I will not approve of her moving for the wrong reason. She was not in the position to place judgment on the people in her neighborhood just because she was incapable of understanding what their lifestyle meant to them. I would let her move if the neighborhood was unsafe or something more impersonal, but she was wanting to move based on a social categorization that was morally wrong and illogical.

I can go and join a club that people don't like, or place myself in a situation, any situation where people could associate my surroundings with my personality or character, but that is so ignorant that I just refuse to be associated with people who will make those types of deductions. For instance, my mother again asked me how I could buy power ranger toys in the afternoon, play with them in the car, then want to go out drinking later that night. Associating those 2 things as not being associated due to a social category is just stupid. Those two interest do not affect each other. The social categories are just....ineffective in my mind. My association with anything in the world does not change me as a person. I change me as a person.

 

[Sam Spade]

I find that most people who do the SJ bashing are not interested in understanding SJs in general. Mostly they want to play the rare and special victim because there are certain easy perks and rewards that come with acting that way. And to continue with those rewards they have to create and keep up an "Us. Vs. them" attitude so they won't ever be interested in understanding and getting along with SJ's.

Here's a typical example of that:

IMDb :: Boards :: A Serious Man (2009) :: Meyers Briggs and ASM

 

[Bri]

To what extent do ISTJs question the validity of rules vs. follow the rules just to maintain peace?

 

[raz]

ohh I could answer that, but in more detail later. The short answer is whatever is necessary to keep the goal of the situation in mind.

 

[IZthe411]

To what extent do ISTJs question the validity of rules vs. follow the rules just to maintain peace?

Assuming we are talking about rules surrounding things of substance, and there's no criminal/life or death circumstances involved:

If the rules make sense to the ISTJ and agree they are reasonable, they will follow them. They usually automatically follow rules of authority, if the source is respected and recognized as a capable authority. After all, The rules, in a sense, dictate how things should be done.

If the rule does not make sense, or do not feel right, the ISTJ will figure out why, and until they do, that rule may consume them. They may follow because they have no other option- especially in new situations, since they are unfamiliar with the process. Rarely do they outrightly disobey without any prior knowledge of the situation. As an ISTJ becomes more knowledgeable of and experieced in a situation, they begin to form their own opinions and and conclusions, and the rule is either validated or deemed worthless.

If the ISTJ feels that there's a better 'rule', they'll most likely work to operate their way.

ISTJs will obey rules to keep peace if they don't have the ability to change their situation. Let's say we are talking about a job where the boss is a weenie and has all these stupid rules. The ISTJ, more conservative than most, will obey the rules so that they are not punished or face getting fired. They may be disgruntled, and complain, but that's probably about how far it will go. They are least likely the one to rouse up some kind of revolt or to h in and tell their weenie boss to shove the rules and care less whether they are fired or not.

I know for myself- I'm less likely to follow rules if they make no sense, even if I am not 100% comfortable with the situation. I'm more likely to find out the whys early on to establish some kind of comfort that they make sense. I'm not comfortable with idiotic rules.

 

[sciski]

This is a good thread. Thanks for your answers so far--they really help my understanding.

I've got a bunch of questions for you, but please don't feel obliged to answer them all unless you really want to.

~

What was adolescence like for you? Did you have a rebellious period, and what was it like?

How important was it to you to do well at school (or further studies)?

What is your opinion of people with qualifications such as Doctorate or Masters degrees? Do they automatically gain your respect?

Have you ever lost your temper and exploded emotionally (raising your voice, screaming, crying)? What brought it on?

 

[Sam Spade]

What was adolescence like for you? Did you have a rebellious period, and what was it like?

It was hell. I moved around a lot and never had any close friends. I eventually came to hate most other teens and only hung out with people who were a few years older than me or were insanely intelligent. I didn't rebel, I just became numb to everything. To a degree, this is still going on since I am only 20. I have 2-3 close friends at my college and am transferring out of it in the fall. I really despise the school and my fellow students because there isn't anyone I can relate to and vice versa. It's a lonely experience I am trying to get out of now before it really fucks me up (it's the school's atmosphere primarily, it's a southern party school...ugh...very ESTP in nature).

How important was it to you to do well at school (or further studies)?

Very important, though I'm not the best student if the class doesn't challenge me.

What is your opinion of people with qualifications such as Doctorate or Masters degrees? Do they automatically gain your respect?

On a personal level, no, but I will give more credence to their input on things (such as debates etc) as opposed to a Freshman majoring in Business @ LSU.

Have you ever lost your temper and exploded emotionally (raising your voice, screaming, crying)? What brought it on?

Yes, but only under extreme stress. For example there was one time where I lost my cool because all these kids were laughing at me after I got hurt (I was 13 or 14 at the time, I remember screaming at them and then crying alone later). I often went into long periods of depression & crying whenever I moved to a new place. Things are much better now except for when I have to leave my girlfriend @ the airport (we are currently long distance but that's going to end very soon, thank God/Wotan/Zeus).

 

[Amira]

To what extent do ISTJs question the validity of rules vs. follow the rules just to maintain peace?

Trivial rules, like how to arrange something, it kind of depends. If I feel a trivial rule is making life harder than it should be and something else would work better, then I definitely do agitate to get it changed. I do not like being too pinned down by someone else's version of efficiency (and I try to remember that and not give other people too many frivolous rules). If it's not really onerous then I'll follow it with no problem - it's pretty easy for me to remember lots of little guidelines/rules, too.

If it's not a trivial "put your folder here whenever you put it down," rule then I will probably follow it until I decide it's not ideal, at which point I spend a lot of time thinking about it and come up with an alternative that I think would be better and see if I can get it changed to that. I am not usually trying to get rid of rules altogether, I just want some input.

What was adolescence like for you? Did you have a rebellious period, and what was it like?

Not much rebellion at all - I got most of it out of my system as a young kid. As far as fighting with my parents, see above re: trivial rules. I really only argued much with one of my parents and usually in a restrained manner - we had differing ideas on a lot of things and their "proper procedure." I'm afraid it was never a dramatic, door slamming, foot stomping, type of thing with me. I never even drank or stayed out too late, too busy on other things, like all my ambitions. *Cue "taking over world" emoticon here.*

What is your opinion of people with qualifications such as Doctorate or Masters degrees? Do they automatically gain your respect?

Somewhat. It depends on what the degree is in. M.D.s and "hard science" degrees will always get a certain amount of respect and I tend to want to ask a bunch of questions about their field of study. It's interesting to pick people's brains... If it's in a more soft area of science, I waver between thinking "wow, to get an advanced degree takes a ton of work no matter what," and "do they have any common sense about normal life?" Sorry, I know that might step on toes but that is what my reaction tends to be. Anyway, respect given because of a degree doesn't translate to me automatically wanting to take their advice, if that is what you meant.

Have you ever lost your temper and exploded emotionally (raising your voice, screaming, crying)? What brought it on?

Raising voice, not really. I get a more controlled voice when I'm mad. Crying, yes, if I'm really, really mad at someone I tend to break down and cry which is extremely irritating when you'd rather be yelling or hitting something! I think a lot of us girls cry sometimes when we're mad, though. The last time I actually lost my temper was because after a long series of stressful events over a period of weeks, someone promised me they'd do something very important to me, they did not, and I found this out when I was hungry and tired. I admit I actually stomped and slammed a door. Not proud of it, but oh well. To me explosions of emotion are pretty scary and I try to control myself well enough not to let it get to that point. It takes a lot to get me mad and I can't think of very many instances in the last few years that came close to exploding.

 

[Leanne_92]

The more I get into TypoC, the more I see how grossly misunderstood my type is.

In order to help dispel any misunderstandings about the Guardians, please post your questions here, and at the least I'll try to give you an objective, unbiased answer. Being that I'm a 31 year old male, I have some experience to back up what I'm saying, not just speculation. Of course all of the other ISTJs on this board are welcome to share their thoughts and experiences.

Hopefully this is a helpful thread.

This is a good thread! I can easily see it going on for over 50 pages...

My question is: how long do you have to know someone before you feel that you know them? Would it take a year, minimum? Is it even time-based?

 

[Sam Spade]

how long do you have to know someone before you feel that you know them? Would it take a year, minimum? Is it even time-based?

With me, it definitely isn't time based. I can't explain it, but with the close friends I've had (mainly an INTP and ESTJ), something just 'clicked' and we hit it off and have been close for years. Some of my best friends I only knew irl for a few months and then they moved but we still talk on MSN etc every day.

 

[raz]

This is a good thread! I can easily see it going on for over 50 pages...

My question is: how long do you have to know someone before you feel that you know them? Would it take a year, minimum? Is it even time-based?

Not time based. I think anyone can agree that you just see certain actions and feel certain things that convince you that you feel the bond.

 

[Amira]

Ditto to the last two posters, not time based at all. Either they are open to connecting on some level or they aren't and I have discovered that you can know someone for years and years and never know them at all better, really, than when you started.