[ISFJ] ISFJ Personality Traits - What does an unhealthy ISFJ look like?

[dloaded]

Long post

• Subtle guilt trips through self-victimization
• Actively being a paragon of virtue, to use as leverage later ("If I'm perfect, then you have no excuse to be upset with me.")
• Generally passive-aggressive (occasionally downright aggressive if they feel justified or people they love are threatened)
• Self-pity/withdrawal/self-castigation
• Mentally able to block out things they don't want to address (denial and repression)
• Can keep record of wrongs easily
• Prone to wild speculation when things are forced outside the box (i.e., weak N abilities)

All of this is true of my b/f, which calls into question the type he's been ID'd as (ISFP). Are unhealthy ISFPs similar in any way to ISFJs? I've been going back and for between J and P for awhile now, but haven't had enough info to pinpoint him. Any help?

Well, remember everyone is different, even within a particular MBTI type. Different strategies sometimes are favored based on past experience(s).

It makes me smile when I read your posts because you're SO thorough and efficient!

the ISFJ might get clingy or want a lot of their time and energy, more than they have to give.

Yeah, that was a little annoying at first...Now I'm just as clingy! :steam:

My boyfriend responds positively when I distance myself because he's acting out of line. It's how I demand respect and works a lot better than going on an emotional rant about how I deserve respect.

Whenever I leave my b/f gets more offended and stubborn and the self-victimization becomes amplified...He usually tells me to just stay gone. He does however, actually respond well if I hang up on him.

He kept a lot of this inside and it ultimately surfaced in unhealthy ISFJ behaviors directed towards me because in his mind, I didn't see that he had done everything he possibly could do and that made him feel unappreciated.

Something that could have been avoided had he been able to vocalize those feelings to you before he imploded on himself and then consequently exploded on you.

Sometimes it seems they are more like problem-relishers rather than problem-solvers...

If you deal with them calmly and logically address the problem like a T would, they won't accept they are wrong.

Thus arguing will get you nowhere with them. Attack the root of the flame, rather than the flames themselves. In fire theory, a fire needs 3 things to burn. Fuel, oxygen, and heat. So, consider fuel as an idea or object that they can obsess over. You can't really cut these off with reasoning, as they will fabricate more. Heat could represent the emotions that react with the fuel. That is where you need to address them.

This is a very informative insight. I am in dire need of coping options right now re: my b/f. If we [read: I] don't figure some stuff out then we're probably not going to make it. So, I definitely appreciate what you've written!

You could cut off their oxygen supply, but that could cause brain damage. My dad tried it. It only got him arrested, and then the argument continued over the police telephone.

ISFJ's are fairly dependent beings and I have learned that letting them be dependent on you for support actually helps them build their own confidence and become more independently confident.

So does that mean that he has his own positive self-talk now? He's learned to play the role you played before, for himself?

 

[mlittrell]

Hrm, I thought you dug SJ's? Maybe just ISTJ's? Do you have any stories or concerns about ISFJ's you'd like to ask about?

i dig people not types. one of my best friends is an ISFJ and he tends to be manipulative (not to me but others). just because someone is manipulative doesn't mean i wont be friend with them. im quite good at spotting people when they are manipulative so its not a problem.

 

[Giggly]

i dig people not types. one of my best friends is an ISFJ and he tends to be manipulative (not to me but others). just because someone is manipulative doesn't mean i wont be friend with them. im quite good at spotting people when they are manipulative so its not a problem.

Hrm, okay. Is one of your best friends ISTJ too? Where in the world did I get that idea from?

 

[Wild horses]

Yea ISFJs when unhealthy can really use the guilt trip like no one else I know... they can even begin to stomp their feet and scream and shout like a toddler to get thei rown way (I have actually witnessed this) The thing I find the hardest to take is the emotional outbursts.. despite being a fellow feeler there is something about their emotionality which completely overwhelms me... Did I mention that I absolutely adore them also LOLOL! (Can't live with em and all that)

 

[Giggly]

Yea ISFJs when unhealthy can really use the guilt trip like no one else I know... they can even begin to stomp their feet and scream and shout like a toddler to get thei rown way (I have actually witnessed this) The thing I find the hardest to take is the emotional outbursts.. despite being a fellow feeler there is something about their emotionality which completely overwhelms me... Did I mention that I absolutely adore them also LOLOL! (Can't live with em and all that)

EMOTIONAL OUTBURSTS?!?!?!?! :steam::hi: I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!11one

 

[Wild horses]

LOL!!! We love you for it (Just as long as we're not on the receiving end of it) Seriously you guys out emotion me (Scary stuff!)

 

[mlittrell]

Hrm, okay. Is one of your best friends ISTJ too? Where in the world did I get that idea from?

i have A LOT of friends. my SJ friends are as follows: ISTJ x 2, ISFJ x 2, ESTJ x 3, ESFJ x 2. those are good friends. i know more lol. i use many of them in my SJ examples.

 

[Lightning_Rider]

Yes this whole MBTI thing can be quite eye-opening information on yourself and things you do and feel. Personally I think it is amazing how accurate information on a specific MBTI type can be to a person of that type.

I read most of this thread and I can agree/confirm a lot of the things that were mentioned.

 

[chimpuloc]

Very true. They also can get VERY stubborn and generally uncooperative. Also, they can get very critical of others when the criticism should be pointed inwards. I can tell my boyfriend's starting to do this when I bring up a problem I have with something he did or said and he immediately starts reciting a list of every single thing I've ever done to hurt him. He's also quick to point out anything he can think of that would shift the blame to me. When it gets to that point, I just leave the room or the apartment until he calms down - and when I get back, he always apologizes and feels terrible about his behavior.

I've found the best way to deal with these behaviors is simply by giving the ISFJ some space to calm the heck down. There are issues in my relationship with an ISFJ that have had to be settled weeks after the fact because my boyfriend's stress/depression level was so high that he started exhibiting these behaviors.

My boyfriend responds positively when I distance myself because he's acting out of line. It's how I demand respect and works a lot better than going on an emotional rant about how I deserve respect. Simply talking to him when he's depressed or stressed doesn't get much accomplished. He needs to see consequences of his actions when he's all caught up in his "stubborn martyr mode". Usually once the consequences are laid out in front of him, he will not cross the line again. Since both of us stopped putting up with destructive behavior from each other (I have my own set of unhealthy behaviors), our relationship's gotten a million times better.

Usually when we get stubborn or uncooperative is because you're requesting something of us that you really have no grounds on (like borrowing money from someone and not paying back and then asking again). Ah yes, the critical part I think comes from, from what I've seen others say, us analyzing and judging others quietly, gathering information and details about a person...and yes, I would apologize too if I did those things. When you corner an emotional person the only option they have is hostility.

That's a very good way to help him calm down. My 2 best friends are INTPs and whenever I get into an argument with them, I ALWAYS lose because it seems like they're being harsh and attacking my opinion when really they're being constructive. Maturity, I think, has a big part in this, ISFJs just have to learn how to take it OR think ahead before initiating we're not ready for.
Like I've said before we think on instinct and emotions that are tied to details, it takes time for us to analyze a person's every flaw because we don't pick singular details, we take the whole picture.
Which is why I'm TERRIBLE at debates.
But, alas, there are many of us that develop in drastically different ways. so this may or may not apply to your boyfriend.

 

[chimpuloc]

• Subtle guilt trips through self-victimization
• Actively being a paragon of virtue, to use as leverage later ("If I'm perfect, then you have no excuse to be upset with me.")
• Generally passive-aggressive (occasionally downright aggressive if they feel justified or people they love are threatened)
• Self-pity/withdrawal/self-castigation
• Mentally able to block out things they don't want to address (denial and repression)
• Can keep record of wrongs easily
• Prone to wild speculation when things are forced outside the box (i.e., weak N abilities)

Those are the things I generally have experienced.

Oh yeah! And one really REALLY big flaw that I've noticed of ISFJs, specifically in myself, we are very controlling.
Example
It's hard for us to let stuff go. (It's like a child that has lost interest in a toy and left it somewhere where another child picks it up and starts playing with it, and out of nowhere the child before returns and snatches it claiming it's his). I can also be very forward and extreme when I want something to happen. (Like going to a friend who owes me money and I take and keep what he used that money to buy unless he paid me back. Backstabbing a person because they back stabbed someone else in the back, etc.)
I sense that this all stems from the J in our type.
We want order, law, justice, organization, and to have these things we need absolute control of a situation.
Good choice of words, by the way, Paragon of virtue I agree!
It's a good thing ISFJ's don't like taking a leadership or follower role and more of an individualistic role

 

[seeker22]

I am an ENFP... Was with an ISFJ for 5 years right down to owning a home together and everything... the whole nine yards...

Some general themes of the relationship - which by the way, I wound up having to end it because I became too unhappy - even though I REALLY wanted it to work...

1) ISFJ tendency toward pessimism, complaining, buzzkill, negative attitude:

Me: I'm so excited we're buying a home!!!
She: "Now we have a mortgage payment and property taxes."

Me: "I can't wait to take the boat out it's going to be so fun!"
She: "Now we have to make sure it's insured and pay for gas."

Me: "I love our new baby kitten she's adorable!!"
She: "Now we have a litter box to clean and vet bills."

Me: "I'm so excited that our friends are coming over today!!"
She: "Now we have to buy food and drinks and clean up afterward."

One day I gave her a stuffed Eeyore animal from Winnie the Pooh to try and make a point in a humorous way. She always saw the glass as "half empty." Everything in her life went through that negative filter. =(

2) She wanted a HELPMATE. I wanted a MINDMATE.
Me: "What do you think about ______? I wonder if ______?"
She: "This place is a mess. I do everything around here."
(Keep in mind "mess" to her would be clean by anyone else's standards and she would fail to recognize or acknowledge all the ways I contributed to the relationship and then give constant guilt trips)

3) ISFJ insecurity, paranoia, and accusations of affairs:
She was jealous of friends, colleagues, family members, mailmen, neighbors, store clerks, the realtor - ANYONE I gave a crumb of attention to was now "the enemy" in her eyes. Everyone felt like a threat to her. She was very controlling and possessive - so to make her happy I stopped hanging out with anyone or interacting with anyone for fear of her wrath. I started realizing I was living in prison and losing myself. She was very very needy and clingy and would get very upset if I wanted to do something without her.

4) Criticism, moodiness, unanticipated and easily triggered BLOW UPS where they annihilate you and rehash everything wrong you've ever done (in their eyes) and then bring you a pizza later with "I'm Sorry" written in pepperoni and profusely apologize. Blame shifting: nothing was ever her fault and I was the root cause of all evil at all times.
She: "Get in here."
Me: "Ok, what's up?" <walk into kitchen>
She: "There are four cans of food missing from the pantry."
Me: "Yes I donated them to the can drive for poor kids."
She: "WHAT is WRONG with you!!!?" <flings my backpack across room and storms off, begins silent treatment>

5) Focus on problems not solutions:
She: "I'm sick of doing everything around here."
Me: "Let me pay someone to come and clean the house once a week."
She: "That's a waste of money and a ridiculous idea."
Me: "Well how about I treat you to dinner once a week then?"
She: "I'm not your slave don't treat me like one."
Me: "Ok how about we make a chore table and take turns?"
She: "I'm not in kindergarten I don't need a chore table."
Me: *sigh*

6) Lack of conversational skills or participation: We could not hold a conversation to save our lives. <crickets chirping> I would say something and she would stay quiet. Some might mistake this for her being a "good listener." But I say NO. She never gave any feedback or contributed to the conversation- she didn't participate or add to what was being said. I was BORED to tears. She never had anything interesting, thought provoking, or engaging to say. The two times of year she did I got all excited and wrote it in my journal to cling to.

Basically I couldn't do ANYTHING right in her eyes. I tried for five years and finally it became too exhausting. It felt like I was responsible for her happiness and I could never make her happy because it was like a bottomless pit - it would never be enough. I just couldn't please her.

The lack of intellectual stimulation and the sheer quantity and degree of boredom was painful.

To her credit - she DID cook and clean. But I felt like I lived with a statue - and a critical one at that!

 

[Lightning_Rider]

Definitely sounds like an unhealthy ISFJ. The normal ones are not like that. Sounds like you're better off now.

 

[seeker22]

Thank you for confirming this is an unhealthy version of an ISFJ! I look forward to having a corrective experience with one! =)

 

[prplchknz]

honestly, I don't think I could have lasted 5 years with someone like that. When someone says the things she did to you, I'll just shut down and not do any thing. I figure, they're going to be unhappy with what I do no matter what, so I'm just going to exert the least amount of energy.

 

[seeker22]

Yes many people have told me that same thing... Thanks for the validation... Sometimes the ENFP trait of looking for and focusing on the best in others can keep us trapped in unhealthy relationships... gotta work on that...

 

[prplchknz]

Yes many people have told me that same thing... Thanks for the validation... Sometimes the ENFP trait of looking for and focusing on the best in others can keep us trapped in unhealthy relationships... gotta work on that...

Yeah I can relate to that not to well, but someone. I lived with unhealthy ISFJ last year and it was torture, but I kept saying that once the lease is up I'm gone. I ended up moving out two months early and paying double rent. But at first I thought well she just has issues, who doesn't? she's fine. But then I realized that no matter what I did she would be negative and miserable. So yeah it took me a long time to see her negative traits, but then I finally did and I could no longer stand her.

 

[BerberElla]

It's true that my ISFJ best friend does have a pessimistic and negative attitude to life, and truthfully it frustrates me when I phone her in a hyped up happy mood because I often take on negative moods if they are around me.

But then I think about how she has been there for me when I was miss negativity of the world, put up with my whining and moaning about all that happened to me (I met her in a womens refuge) and she would try to cheer me up with her negative yet realistic outlook on many things.

I don't let her depression bring me down, I just barrel my way through all of that until she is laughing and appearing to be a bit happier.

 

[Snow Turtle]

I am an ENFP... Was with an ISFJ for 5 years right down to owning a home together and everything... the whole nine yards...

Some general themes of the relationship - which by the way, I wound up having to end it because I became too unhappy - even though I REALLY wanted it to work...

1) ISFJ tendency toward pessimism, complaining, buzzkill, negative attitude:

Yeah, we're quite pessimistic people. I wonder what's up with that? Must be all this security and avoidance of failure attitude that we frequently engage in to ensure that our future is decent. I'd agree with lightning, that the ISFJ seems unhealthy because if she was healthy she'd quickly realise how much being negative drags down a relationship?

I'm curious, how did the relationship end in the end? How did she react to the news?

3) ISFJ insecurity, paranoia, and accusations of affairs:
She was jealous of friends, colleagues, family members, mailmen, neighbors, store clerks, the realtor - ANYONE I gave a crumb of attention to was now "the enemy" in her eyes. Everyone felt like a threat to her. She was very controlling and possessive - so to make her happy I stopped hanging out with anyone or interacting with anyone for fear of her wrath. I started realizing I was living in prison and losing myself. She was very very needy and clingy and would get very upset if I wanted to do something without her.

I would say that this is due to her being an unhealthy ISFJ, but I sort of engage in this behaviour myself of feeling rejected and thus am slightly needy within. I never let this on to other people, but this might change if I were actually in a relationship.

Part of me thinks that the need to be needed isn't easily gotten rid of by ISFJs, but I'd love to hear stories of people who don't relate to this piece of information.

4) Criticism, moodiness, unanticipated and easily triggered BLOW UPS where they annihilate you and rehash everything wrong you've ever done (in their eyes) and then bring you a pizza later with "I'm Sorry" written in pepperoni and profusely apologize. Blame shifting: nothing was ever her fault and I was the root cause of all evil at all times.
She: "Get in here."
Me: "Ok, what's up?" <walk into kitchen>
She: "There are four cans of food missing from the pantry."
Me: "Yes I donated them to the can drive for poor kids."
She: "WHAT is WRONG with you!!!?" <flings my backpack across room and storms off, begins silent treatment>

5) Focus on problems not solutions:
She: "I'm sick of doing everything around here."
Me: "Let me pay someone to come and clean the house once a week."
She: "That's a waste of money and a ridiculous idea."
Me: "Well how about I treat you to dinner once a week then?"
She: "I'm not your slave don't treat me like one."
Me: "Ok how about we make a chore table and take turns?"
She: "I'm not in kindergarten I don't need a chore table."
Me: *sigh*

Hehe. This is actually something that my ENTP boss once mentioned to me that I have a tendancy to seek out problems rather than solutions "Right, give me solutions not problems." and I think she's right. I also like to think that I might make an alright troubleshooter because of this habit of discovering errors etc.

6) Lack of conversational skills or participation: We could not hold a conversation to save our lives. <crickets chirping> I would say something and she would stay quiet. Some might mistake this for her being a "good listener." But I say NO. She never gave any feedback or contributed to the conversation- she didn't participate or add to what was being said. I was BORED to tears. She never had anything interesting, thought provoking, or engaging to say. The two times of year she did I got all excited and wrote it in my journal to cling to.

What made you become interested to her in the first place? Where was the conversational element at the beginning? Granted, you don't have to answer if you feel as if I'm probing a little too much. I'm just genuinely interested.

Basically I couldn't do ANYTHING right in her eyes. I tried for five years and finally it became too exhausting. It felt like I was responsible for her happiness and I could never make her happy because it was like a bottomless pit - it would never be enough. I just couldn't please her.

The lack of intellectual stimulation and the sheer quantity and degree of boredom was painful.

To her credit - she DID cook and clean. But I felt like I lived with a statue - and a critical one at that!

Eitherway sorry to hear that it didn't work out in the end, but it seems like you have moved onto better relationships.

 

[Athenian200]

I am an ENFP... Was with an ISFJ for 5 years right down to owning a home together and everything... the whole nine yards...

Some general themes of the relationship - which by the way, I wound up having to end it because I became too unhappy - even though I REALLY wanted it to work...

1) ISFJ tendency toward pessimism, complaining, buzzkill, negative attitude:

Me: I'm so excited we're buying a home!!!
She: "Now we have a mortgage payment and property taxes."

Me: "I can't wait to take the boat out it's going to be so fun!"
She: "Now we have to make sure it's insured and pay for gas."

Me: "I love our new baby kitten she's adorable!!"
She: "Now we have a litter box to clean and vet bills."

Me: "I'm so excited that our friends are coming over today!!"
She: "Now we have to buy food and drinks and clean up afterward."

One day I gave her a stuffed Eeyore animal from Winnie the Pooh to try and make a point in a humorous way. She always saw the glass as "half empty." Everything in her life went through that negative filter. =(

2) She wanted a HELPMATE. I wanted a MINDMATE.
Me: "What do you think about ______? I wonder if ______?"
She: "This place is a mess. I do everything around here."
(Keep in mind "mess" to her would be clean by anyone else's standards and she would fail to recognize or acknowledge all the ways I contributed to the relationship and then give constant guilt trips)

3) ISFJ insecurity, paranoia, and accusations of affairs:
She was jealous of friends, colleagues, family members, mailmen, neighbors, store clerks, the realtor - ANYONE I gave a crumb of attention to was now "the enemy" in her eyes. Everyone felt like a threat to her. She was very controlling and possessive - so to make her happy I stopped hanging out with anyone or interacting with anyone for fear of her wrath. I started realizing I was living in prison and losing myself. She was very very needy and clingy and would get very upset if I wanted to do something without her.

4) Criticism, moodiness, unanticipated and easily triggered BLOW UPS where they annihilate you and rehash everything wrong you've ever done (in their eyes) and then bring you a pizza later with "I'm Sorry" written in pepperoni and profusely apologize. Blame shifting: nothing was ever her fault and I was the root cause of all evil at all times.
She: "Get in here."
Me: "Ok, what's up?" <walk into kitchen>
She: "There are four cans of food missing from the pantry."
Me: "Yes I donated them to the can drive for poor kids."
She: "WHAT is WRONG with you!!!?" <flings my backpack across room and storms off, begins silent treatment>

5) Focus on problems not solutions:
She: "I'm sick of doing everything around here."
Me: "Let me pay someone to come and clean the house once a week."
She: "That's a waste of money and a ridiculous idea."
Me: "Well how about I treat you to dinner once a week then?"
She: "I'm not your slave don't treat me like one."
Me: "Ok how about we make a chore table and take turns?"
She: "I'm not in kindergarten I don't need a chore table."
Me: *sigh*

6) Lack of conversational skills or participation: We could not hold a conversation to save our lives. <crickets chirping> I would say something and she would stay quiet. Some might mistake this for her being a "good listener." But I say NO. She never gave any feedback or contributed to the conversation- she didn't participate or add to what was being said. I was BORED to tears. She never had anything interesting, thought provoking, or engaging to say. The two times of year she did I got all excited and wrote it in my journal to cling to.

Basically I couldn't do ANYTHING right in her eyes. I tried for five years and finally it became too exhausting. It felt like I was responsible for her happiness and I could never make her happy because it was like a bottomless pit - it would never be enough. I just couldn't please her.

The lack of intellectual stimulation and the sheer quantity and degree of boredom was painful.

To her credit - she DID cook and clean. But I felt like I lived with a statue - and a critical one at that!

Aww... sounds like a lost, perfectionist little kid trying to manage as an adult and failing miserably.

It sounds like you were always enthusiastic about jumping on random opportunities and not seeing them in terms of how much work they meant, because you were so "into it" that it didn't matter to you... and she might well have been afraid that she would be the one left with the worry long after you'd had your quickly forgotten initial fun. That part might be an actual issue for you.

The can thing might have been annoying as well, because she might have had everything planned around having those cans available, and would have to arrange to replace them now, possibly throwing off the budget, etc.

Everything else you described sounds like a serious set of character flaws that would be hard to put up with, though.

 

[seeker22]

I'm curious, how did the relationship end in the end? How did she react to the news?

What made you become interested to her in the first place? Where was the conversational element at the beginning?

The relationship ended when I told her I wanted to have a balanced life that included family and friends. She said no, I could not have that. The therapist about fell out of his chair. She said I could not be trusted and have absolutely zero boundaries.

No I have never cheated, yes I do have that inherent ENFP engage complete strangers and everyone in between thing - I will own that. I told her that quality is part of my personality, and EVERYONE who knows me knows how strongly I feel about cheating being wrong and that I would never do it. They know I am playful and friendly but would never take it past that. She could not trust me though. She loved that quality in me at first - then grew to loathe it. I even tried to keep it reeled in for her! Did not feel natural for me though - felt like self suicide.

Anyway, she was devastated. I could not figure out why when it was clear everything about me was "wrong" in her eyes. She then went out and proceeded to hook up with anyone and everyone who was mammal and had a pulse, including my friend. That hurt. And here she said I was the one to be worried about!

We tried to reconcile and then I found out she was cheating. That was it for me. She ended up "downgrading" (lol) to someone who is totally unattractive and into drugs and alcohol. However, she continues to call, text, and email me that she loves me and can't get over her feelings for me. I just don't get it.

As for the beginning and having no conversation - I thought she was just shy and would "warm up." She never did. She is also amazingly sexy, cooks amazing food, cleans, does laundry, etc. Loved those parts of her - she kind of swept me off my feet with all of her kind gestures.