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Is capitalism a religion?

Lark

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Fundamentally Capitalism is a value/product based system but some of the variations can evidently turn into some kind of a cult-like mindset. The examples are numerous: textbook abuse of basic human rights for the greater good (more profit), accusing everyone unlike you of being a socialist (aka "infidel"), ignoring concrete facts if they don't fit into a doctrine or they are inconvenient (like problems with pollution or health), shameless elitism and overconfidence by many on the top, ... etc.








This is not off topic at all. This is exactly a cult like behavior that is the core of this thread.


In my country the government just said that it will rise minimum wage for something like 8% and business circles say this is a scandalous, that this is populism ... etc. (and even with this minimum wage is still a bad joke) Personally I never understood how all these big business experts plan to have a developed market with consumers without purchasing power. So the logical conclusions is that all of this isn't really about market or exchange but power and control.

Its a shame in many ways that capitalism has turned out the way it has, it was the "socialism" of its day, ie high hopes, utopian vision, personal sacrifice etc.

The fact it didnt live up to vision gave the world socialism, largely, something that's great doesnt result in criticism gaining so much traction people imagine a complete break with it and a complete alternative to it.

Although what anyone's alternative is when socialism turns out has it has turned out in human history in a variety of different contexts is anyone's guess really, in some parts of the USSR while it was collapsing capitalism as a hopeful, optimistic alternative got revived, at the same time it enjoyed something like a "second wind" in some parts of the west but they often called it libertarianism rather than capitalism.

I dont think it matters what you call the ideological strait jacket that you're trying to impose upon events or everyday life when it becomes less and less of a visionary idea and more and more of a fable, an appealing fantasy but a fantasy none the less, beloved mainly by elites, there's a problem on the rise for sure. It makes it less and less possible to talk "real talk" and get things fixed when they start failing.

Globally I think the biggest problem is that elites wont face facts, it doesnt matter what your economy or politics are meant to conform to. The masses accept drops in living standards or life expectancy largely because there's not much they can do about it but the elites fight for their legacies. At the minute I think its going to cost the planet, the climate crisis is real, it wont be checked entirely by a shrinking global population either.
 

Jaguar

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In my country the government just said that it will rise minimum wage for something like 8% and business circles say this is a scandalous, that this is populism ... etc. (and even with this minimum wage is still a bad joke) Personally I never understood how all these big business experts plan to have a developed market with consumers without purchasing power. So the logical conclusions is that all of this isn't really about market or exchange but power and control.


What is your minimum wage, comparable to U.S. dollars?
 

Virtual ghost

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What is your minimum wage, comparable to U.S. dollars?


With current exchange rate and with this 8% rise our minimum wage should be about 490 $ a month. (what isn't much even by our local standards)


The reason why I said what I said is because in absolute numbers that 8% rise is basically pocket change and our people on minimum wage (*cough* women *cough*) often really work as half slaves and with unpaid overtime. I mean if this rise will kill your business then you evidently have much bigger problems than this. Especially since we are importing so much stuff from West European countries where wages are literally multiple times higher. Actually the number one economic problem in this country is demography and at this point that comes mostly from the fact that our women have a hard time getting money. Therefore this is investment into the future stability of the market and those people have so little that they are going to spend pretty much everything right away.


So I find the reaction "morally bankrupt".
However government is the smart one here since due to stuff like this more and more of our people look back at Communism with nostalgia. It doesn't even matter if nostalgia is factually justified.
 

Jaguar

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With current exchange rate and with this 8% rise our minimum wage should be about 490 $ a month. (what isn't much even by our local standards)


The reason why I said what I said is because in absolute numbers that 8% rise is basically pocket change and our people on minimum wage (*cough* women *cough*) often really work as half slaves and with unpaid overtime. I mean if this rise will kill your business then you evidently have much bigger problems than this. Especially since we are importing so much stuff from West European countries where wages are literally multiple times higher. Actually the number one economic problem in this country is demography and at this point that comes mostly from the fact that our women have a hard time getting money. Therefore this is investment into the future stability of the market and those people have so little that they are going to spend pretty much everything right away.


So I find the reaction "morally bankrupt".
However government is the smart one here since due to stuff like this more and more of our people looks back at Communism with nostalgia. It doesn't even matter if nostalgia is factually justified.

If you work overtime, you should get paid an increased wage. And the 490 a month is ridiculous as it is. Who are these cheap-assed fuckers? What kind of industries pay people like that or is it like that regardless of industry type?
 

Virtual ghost

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If you work overtime, you should get paid an increased wage. And the 490 a month is ridiculous as it is. Who are these cheap-assed fuckers? What kind of industries pay people like that or is it like that regardless of industry type?




Who are they ? Family and friends of the Communists, when we changed from Communism to Capitalism in 1990 basically everything was publicly owned and then the government just gave companies to their family and friends to make something out of them. Therefore these "new entrepreneurs" were people that set up the standards of how this new market game will be played. The most famous case was of the guy who had a bar and through this dynamic he got something like 170 companies through few years, some of which were even major ones. However he ruined pretty much all of that since in the mindset he was still just a bar owner (now he hides abroad). Or you have "the boss" that on these kind of wages and destroying/screwing family farms managed to build so large company in 25 years that the company got to about 20% of country's GDP. We called the whole thing "the parallel government", therefore now when the Russian state took over maybe it will indeed evolve into textbook center of power (wages didn't really improve through ownership change). I mean the list of insanity is pretty long, you can write the whole books on this topic. From what I know our minimum wage is universal for all industries.



In a way this is the biggest problem with Capitalism, you need proper mindset to make it really work, otherwise you are at risk of wondering into some kind of "twilight zone". Therefore since Capitalism is being aggressively introduced around the world most of those new markets look more like mine than yours. In a way this is why USA lost pretty much all battles in market competition, since you just can't compete with this kind of wages. You can cut taxes all day and it wouldn't really change things, especially since my local workforce is still far from really cheap one.
 

Jaguar

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Who are they ? Family and friends of the Communists, when we changed from Communism to Capitalism in 1990 basically everything was publicly owned and then the government just gave companies to their family and friends to make something out of them. Therefore these "new entrepreneurs" were people that set up the standards of how this new market game will be played. The most famous case was of the guy who had a bar and through this dynamic he got something like 170 companies through few years, some of which were even major ones. However he ruined pretty much all of that since in the mindset he was still just a bar owner (now he hides abroad). Or you have "the boss" that on these kind of wages and destroying/screwing family farms managed to build so large company in 25 years that the company got to about 20% of country's GDP. We called the whole thing "the parallel government", therefore now when the Russian state took over maybe it will indeed evolve into textbook center of power (wages didn't really improve through ownership change). I mean the list of insanity is pretty long, you can write the whole books on this topic. From what I know our minimum wage is universal for all industries.



In a way this is the biggest problem with Capitalism, you need proper mindset to make it really work, otherwise you are at risk of wondering into some kind of "twilight zone". Therefore since Capitalism is being aggressively introduced around the world most of those new markets look more like mine than yours. In a way this is why USA lost pretty much all battles in market competition, since you just can't compete with this kind of wages. You can cut taxes all day and it wouldn't really change things, especially since my local workforce is still far from really cheap one.

The they is anyone and everyone responsible for allowing so-called wages that low to be paid in the first place. What you are describing to me isn't the kind of capitalism I know, it sounds like a bunch of crazy people over there. Speaking of crazy people, didn't you post a video of government officials throwing chairs or punching each other? Maybe that was someone else, but I could have sworn that was you. And I responded with, "What the fuck is that nonsense?" Then you said something like it was "normal behavior." ;)
 

Vendrah

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In a way this is the biggest problem with Capitalism, you need proper mindset to make it really work, otherwise you are at risk of wondering into some kind of "twilight zone". Therefore since Capitalism is being aggressively introduced around the world most of those new markets look more like mine than yours. In a way this is why USA lost pretty much all battles in market competition, since you just can't compete with this kind of wages. You can cut taxes all day and it wouldn't really change things, especially since my local workforce is still far from really cheap one.

The minimum wage on your country is almost 2x higher than the brazilian one (250/month), although in Brazil maybe the cost of living is lower. And Brazil shouldnt really be the worst place, Im sure places like India or many places on the world has a worse situation.

I agree with you, brazilian mindset is to use the workers as much as they can.
[MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION] Neither We dont really live in the same capitalism, the capitalism I know is closer to [MENTION=4347]Virtual ghost[/MENTION] than yours.
 

Virtual ghost

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The they is anyone and everyone responsible for allowing so-called wages that low to be paid in the first place. What you are describing to me isn't the kind of capitalism I know, it sounds like a bunch of crazy people over there. Speaking of crazy people, didn't you post a video of government officials throwing chairs or punching each other? Maybe that was someone else, but I could have sworn that was you. And I responded with, "What the fuck is that nonsense?" Then you said something like it was "normal behavior." ;)



That was me, although that was about other countries around wider region. :D



As I said the problem is the mindset and therefore quick forcing of the market can create all kinds of anomalies if there is no proper foundation or cultural background for it. Many of which are openly out of mind. Putin became "Putin" exactly on the platform that he will end the circus and make the country into what it "should be". Capitalism requires certain standards for it to work and those don't exist everywhere.


As I was say saying.





You presume that everywhere there is common will that will arrange everything or that people really have a say, but that simply isn't the case.
The only way to truly control something like this is through authority and then you don't really need textbook Capitalism. What means that in practice Capitalism can turn into forms you don't even recognize, since fundamentally it is an ideal goal and there are alternatives results regardless of what we think about them. If people can turn a parliament into this then imagine what they can do out of vague terms such a "Capitalism". The main difference between the so called free world and everyone else is the rule of law, however if you remove that the concept of good Capitalism quickly starts to fall apart regardless of what citizens really think. (as you probably noticed lately in the environment around you)
 

Virtual ghost

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The minimum wage on your country is almost 2x higher than the brazilian one (250/month), although in Brazil maybe the cost of living is lower. And Brazil shouldnt really be the worst place, Im sure places like India or many places on the world has a worse situation.

I agree with you, brazilian mindset is to use the workers as much as they can.

[MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION] Neither We dont really live in the same capitalism, the capitalism I know is closer to [MENTION=4347]Virtual ghost[/MENTION] than yours.



I am from Croatia (Europe)
I am fairly sure that Brazil has lower cost of living so this should balance itself somewhat. Although in general it should have much less in the terms of public safety, healthcare and similar topics.


The problem is that Capitalism is global, so if you live in ultra developed country you don't get to see the worst parts of this "global market", since you are "management by birth". I mean the problem is evidently in the mindset and upbringing that keeps things like this. In the case that most people on the globe think differently this world would look differently, that even isn't idealism but a fact.
 

Jaguar

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That was me, although that was about other countries around wider region. :D

That made my day. Look at those crazy people! I saved the link this time.

If people can turn a parliament into this then imagine what they can do out of vague terms such a "Capitalism". The main difference between the so called free world and everyone else is the rule of law, however if you remove that the concept of good Capitalism quickly starts to fall apart regardless of what citizens really think. (as you probably noticed lately in the environment around you)

What are you saying to me - the rule of law is basically shit on where there are umbrellas going up in parliament? :D
 

Virtual ghost

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That made my day. Look at those crazy people! I saved the link this time.


What are you saying to me - the rule of law is basically shit on where there are umbrellas going up in parliament? :D


Something like that.




So if this means so much to you here is what I posted.









 

The Cat

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angrymob-300x261.jpg

Night of the Living.
 

Lark

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Something like that.




So if this means so much to you here is what I posted.










:D

Eejits.

They dont know how to do politics properly yet.

Like it says in Lord of War, the secret is not to go to war with yourself, this kind of thing isnt exactly war but the more lacking in order any political order is the more likely its to be exploited by unfriendly external or internal elements.

Chaos breeds chaos.
 

Virtual ghost

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:D

Eejits.

They dont know how to do politics properly yet.


Like it says in Lord of War, the secret is not to go to war with yourself, this kind of thing isnt exactly war but the more lacking in order any political order is the more likely its to be exploited by unfriendly external or internal elements.

Chaos breeds chaos.


But that is the main problem here. What is proper ?


Also when people actually stand up against this and their "donors" that is often seen as "anti-capitalist sentiment" globally, because this could spill into other regions. Since people are openly going after politicians and their donors/sponsors. Even if the the policy and linked videos show that there has to be some kind of purge, since this is just insane. This is exactly why the whole "eastern block thing" is coming back, since the new structures failed at democracy, while the new elites just exploit people in pointless day to day life. While before you had the grand goal for the whole society, you probably had more benefits or perhaps even money in some cases, while the elites and people were more in sync since there was the grand goal. It wasn't good but the suffering at least had a "purpose".





This just came out and this kind of stuff happen all the time around the wider region. This is why many still have sympathy for dictatorships, since without them you get this (at least in these parts). If you read between the lines you will clearly see "The people vs. the investor" line.


Serbians stand up against property developer, bureaucratic incompetence




Also here is the graph that shows why increasing amount of Croats thinks that Capitalism is a cult that will get as all killed and end the nation. (as I said this is our economic problem number 1)






Around wider region capitalism failed for the most part due to number of reasons and the big question is "Now what ?". Selling just about everything to wealthy foreigners doesn't exactly get people excited, even if Capitalism suggests/requires that course of action. What then opens the "Democracy vs. Capitalism" debate, since those two are two different things in unstructured environment.
 

Virtual ghost

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Also here is the graph that shows why increasing amount of Croats thinks that Capitalism is a cult that will get as all killed and end the nation. (as I said this is our economic problem number 1)



Or if you want wider picture. This is the trend that has clear potential to end the world order as we know it (especially in Europe)
Pretty much everything that is going on currently in Europe has this in the background. This is exactly why we see so many U turns in Eastern Europe.








But ok, I am kidnapping the thread at this point.
 

Lark

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But that is the main problem here. What is proper ?


Also when people actually stand up against this and their "donors" that is often seen as "anti-capitalist sentiment" globally, because this could spill into other regions. Since people are openly going after politicians and their donors/sponsors. Even if the the policy and linked videos show that there has to be some kind of purge, since this is just insane. This is exactly why the whole "eastern block thing" is coming back, since the new structures failed at democracy, while the new elites just exploit people in pointless day to day life. While before you had the grand goal for the whole society, you probably had more benefits or perhaps even money in some cases, while the elites and people were more in sync since there was the grand goal. It wasn't good but the suffering at least had a "purpose".





This just came out and this kind of stuff happen all the time around the wider region. This is why many still have sympathy for dictatorships, since without them you get this (at least in these parts). If you read between the lines you will clearly see "The people vs. the investor" line.


Serbians stand up against property developer, bureaucratic incompetence




Also here is the graph that shows why increasing amount of Croats thinks that Capitalism is a cult that will get as all killed and end the nation. (as I said this is our economic problem number 1)






Around wider region capitalism failed for the most part due to number of reasons and the big question is "Now what ?". Selling just about everything to wealthy foreigners doesn't exactly get people excited, even if Capitalism suggests/requires that course of action. What then opens the "Democracy vs. Capitalism" debate, since those two are two different things in unstructured environment.

Have your watched much of the TV show Rick and Morty?

There's a couple of episodes in the first two seasons I think you should pick up, I recommend the whole show in its entirety but there are two that I'm thinking of which feature elite manipulation and control which are particularly good.

My point is that a lot of enraged outburst, street theatre, drama style stuff like what is featured in this serves little real purpose. Chaos breeds chaos. The whole post-communist interim in the east has been miss managed, as it was in Russia even, I am not optimistic that the post-conflict societies elsewhere have been or will be managed much better either.

The over riding point is that fighting and violence isnt going to achieve anything, its the same as Disco's vagaries and fit of joy at some hobo murdering someone who took him to task about bullying some kids in the street, I'll be damned if I actually know how anyone could read much about politics into that but he succeeded some how. A lot of the time people losing their shit is just people losing their shit, politics is a flag of convenience sometimes, or some other excuse.
 

Lark

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Or if you want wider picture. This is the trend that has clear potential to end the world order as we know it (especially in Europe)
Pretty much everything that is going on currently in Europe has this in the background. This is exactly why we see so many U turns in Eastern Europe.








But ok, I am kidnapping the thread at this point.

The population growth is going to result in disorder?

The disruptions to order serve nothing but disruption at this point, instead of it being left wing causes and anarchists whoever is engineering it has a right wing or nationalist focus these days. Its just a serious wish to spread disorder and lawlessness for the sake of it.

When a lot of the new technologies stabilize and demographic shifts take place this will be looked upon as the stupid period that it is.
 

Norexan

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If capitalism were a religion which one would it be most like?

Judeo-Christian's religions. God is Love and Peace but with Crusade and Jihad and if you don't agree with me you will go into hell. I mean you'll become homeless and die. :D
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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The first article of faith of the church of neoliberal capitalism:

Capitalism will make everyone wealthier, and if you believe it needs any kind of regulation at all, you're an apostate who thinks everyone should make exactly the same amount of money.
 
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