[NT] INTP Fear of Intimacy

[Salomé]

Alert the press! INTP admits existence of contexts wherein subjectivity is valid! Read all about it!

ROFL! substitute 1, JF 0.

 

[substitute]

I found this about Fi being led by Ne...

The individual is very adept at perceiving, establishing, and maintaining personal bonds between people. However, these bonds are often perceived as being situational and flexible rather than static. The individual is inclined to focus on establishing personal bonds with other people in the context of realizing or following perceptions from his base function.

The person easily creates a sense of closeness and kinship between people by expressing like and acceptance, but these sentiments are situational rather than an expression of permanent feelings. If the person's mood or external situation changes, he or she may "turn off" the feelings instantly, even forgetting whom they had created the feeling of kinship with.

 

[Synarch]

INTPs are less comfortable in their social ability, so they fear someone trying to exert control over them because they are less able to defend themselves and still remain engaged. The only way to protect the self is to vanish.

ENTPs are more comfortable in their social ability and know they can take care of themselves if someone gets a little over-excited or tries to pin them down; however, the one thing they can't control is someone who pulls away from THEM (the abandonment parT).

Insightful. Meeting people is easy, connecting is difficult, hence there may be something to what you say as we lose what we want most and have the most difficulty achieving.

 

[Totenkindly]

<Ne supported by Fi>

The individual is very adept at perceiving, establishing, and maintaining personal bonds between people. However, these bonds are often perceived as being situational and flexible rather than static. The individual is inclined to focus on establishing personal bonds with other people in the context of realizing or following perceptions from his base function.

The person easily creates a sense of closeness and kinship between people by expressing like and acceptance, but these sentiments are situational rather than an expression of permanent feelings. If the person's mood or external situation changes, he or she may "turn off" the feelings instantly, even forgetting whom they had created the feeling of kinship with.

Very interesting, it would explain the complaints I've heard about ENFPs being fickle and exploitative of personal relationships... and ESFPs too.

That sort of instability of course would scare INTPs to death... or leave a bitter taste in their mouths.

 

[Salomé]

<Ne supported by Fi>


Very interesting, it would explain the complaints I've heard about ENFPs being fickle and exploitative of personal relationships... and ESFPs too.

That sort of instability of course would scare INTPs to death... or leave a bitter taste in their mouths.

+1

I don't think they realize they are being fickle - they always seem to find plausible reasons as to why it's the other person's fault.....and lack of Ti allows them to go on believing this, even when presented with the evidence.

 

[Jack Flak]

+1

I don't think they realize they are being fickle - they always seem to find plausible reasons as to why it's the other person's fault.....and lack of Ti allows them to go on believing this, even when presented with the evidence.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/5594-short-rant-nf-s.html#post328633

 

[Totenkindly]

I don't think they realize they are being fickle - they always seem to find plausible reasons as to why it's the other person's fault.....and lack of Ti allows them to go on believing this, even when presented with the evidence.

Wow.

I don't have many dealings with ENFPs, but you have just described my ESFP kid to a T. It's scary.

You can actually observe him doing it too. He'll revise history or make a situation sour just in order to justify how he's feeling in the moment. (Needless to say, it doesn't go over well in a family of Introverts who all dig in and don't budge on the facts.)

 

[substitute]

That sort of instability of course would scare INTPs to death... or leave a bitter taste in their mouths.

scares me to death, too. rare as it is that I attach to someone, if I do, I'm in for the long haul; it's virtually feudal to me, y'know, if I take that extra step with a person? 'til death, etc., and I can be surprisingly tenacious too...

I think people are often surprised by how different an ENTP can be when they're bonded with somebody, as opposed to how we are with 'everyone else'... I've often had remarks about 'unexpected intensity'.

I think the reason for this sorta stamina I have in relationships - the will to see through and work through everything, no matter what - comes from a knowledge that for me, the opening up, bonding etc process is something that has to come gradually... I can't just open up on command. I'm not even aware most of the time of my own feelings - to express them to others can't just be done at will, however much I might want to. I have to spend a long while digging them out myself so i can even know what I'm going to express, the whole process is very 'underground' for me, so somebody needs to be in for the long haul if they want to get to see those parts of me. I need to have confidence that they won't abandon me if what gets dug up isn't pretty...

 

[Misty_Mountain_Rose]

I think intimacy is tough for NT's in general as we're not so comfortable with the soft and squishy side of things. I regard emotions as this dark ocean of meaning and chthonic impulses that surges beneath the surface. Tapping into that by way of emotional congress with another is both exciting and terrifying.

I like this thought... I never really visualized it like that but its true. I know that I have my own ocean of weirdness called 'emotion' under the surface, and when I think about adding another persons emotions into the mix the formula gets complicated quickly in a scary/exciting kind of way. I'm thinking "Butterfly Effect" here, only among people and not exactly 'butterflies and rain".

 

[Misty_Mountain_Rose]

scares me to death, too. rare as it is that I attach to someone, if I do, I'm in for the long haul; it's virtually feudal to me, y'know, if I take that extra step with a person? 'til death, etc., and I can be surprisingly tenacious too...

I think people are often surprised by how different an ENTP can be when they're bonded with somebody, as opposed to how we are with 'everyone else'... I've often had remarks about 'unexpected intensity'.

I think the reason for this sorta stamina I have in relationships - the will to see through and work through everything, no matter what - comes from a knowledge that for me, the opening up, bonding etc process is something that has to come gradually... I can't just open up on command. I'm not even aware most of the time of my own feelings - to express them to others can't just be done at will, however much I might want to. I have to spend a long while digging them out myself so i can even know what I'm going to express, the whole process is very 'underground' for me, so somebody needs to be in for the long haul if they want to get to see those parts of me. I need to have confidence that they won't abandon me if what gets dug up isn't pretty...

This makes me feel a lot better about my own slowwwwness at opening up to people and why I fight so hard to keep friendships/relationships that I have alive. They're hard won and few and far between. I've been living with the thought that there must be something wrong with me for taking so long to actually have feelings for someone. Dating doesn't seem to work because it puts that expectation that I'll be able to open up and connect, when really, the only people I've ever truly fallen for were my FRIENDS first.

 

[Rachelinpa]

The individual is very adept at perceiving, establishing, and maintaining personal bonds between people. However, these bonds are often perceived as being situational and flexible rather than static. The individual is inclined to focus on establishing personal bonds with other people in the context of realizing or following perceptions from his base function.

Hmm, I don't know if I agree with the situational part or maybe there should be a better word for that. I agree with the flexible part...

The person easily creates a sense of closeness and kinship between people by expressing like and acceptance, but these sentiments are situational rather than an expression of permanent feelings. If the person's mood or external situation changes, he or she may "turn off" the feelings instantly, even forgetting whom they had created the feeling of kinship with.

Ok, actually, nevermind. On second thought, maybe it is situational (fickle!). I wish there was a more relational word for it though. I was talking to a scientist Saturday night at a party... I think he was an INTJ... anyway, he was really interesting to me, but I wasn't hoping to build a long term relationship with him. I was happy to talk to him for hours, but when the party ended, I wasn't hoping to carry it forward. I think this surprised him when he asked for my number and I said, "no." A reasonable example of situational, I guess.

I am fascinated by much and most people (in an intense way), so often they take it the wrong way and think that I want more than just a one-time conversation. I'm not sure this is me being fickle though because I do not understand why they would assume my feelings were permanent in the first place. My interest in them is completely genuine, but I don't like feeling like I owe anything.

I think I am a pretty devoted person though once I decide that I want to commit to someone. I just don't like feeling controlled or obligated either. Yeah, I think there have been times where I can sense the expectations from others, which makes me feel trapped and so I have to pull back. But mostly, I would prefer not to.

 

[substitute]

Trouble is Rachel, you're not likely to get to a stage of knowing a person well enough to know whether it's worth your while to commit to them a bit more, especially introverts, if they sense this tendency in you. For some people it's very difficult to come out and talk to strangers and try to connect, they're not going to do it with someone who will reward them for it by forgetting they exist ten minutes later.

If you think about it, it isn't very flattering is it? I wonder how you'd feel if you got talking to somebody that YOU felt you wanted to see again, somebody you were impressed by enough to think about committing more to them, and they acted like you were being silly and just casually rejected and abandoned you? And you found out that what you thought was a connection was just them putting on a shallow facade to be polite? Because that's how it feels on the receiving end...

In fact, it's that sort of attitude that I, as a fellow extravert, have to fight against people assuming I have... if I had a penny for every time I've had my sincerity questioned...

 

[Jack Flak]

What sub said.

 

[runvardh]

Trouble is Rachel, you're not likely to get to a stage of knowing a person well enough to know whether it's worth your while to commit to them a bit more, especially introverts, if they sense this tendency in you. For some people it's very difficult to come out and talk to strangers and try to connect, they're not going to do it with someone who will reward them for it by forgetting they exist ten minutes later.

If you think about it, it isn't very flattering is it? I wonder how you'd feel if you got talking to somebody that YOU felt you wanted to see again, somebody you were impressed by enough to think about committing more to them, and they acted like you were being silly and just casually rejected and abandoned you? And you found out that what you thought was a connection was just them putting on a shallow facade to be polite? Because that's how it feels on the receiving end...

In fact, it's that sort of attitude that I, as a fellow extravert, have to fight against people assuming I have... if I had a penny for every time I've had my sincerity questioned...

This is something even I take into account when determining if I should step up or not. This is where I will put up a joke front, just in case that's all the person wants is the quick fun then on to something else. Why invest in a high risk market when the lower risk is just as rewarding. *shrug*

 

[substitute]

If you think about it, the phrase usually used for that kinda thing is "leading someone on", and that's generally not considered a positive thing...

About how ENTP's 'seem nicer' due to the Fe, that's not my experience... in fact, my experience, living shoulder to shoulder with my ENFP brother all my life, is that in fact everyone thinks the sun shines out of his ass because he seems so cheerful and friendly and open, whilst they see me as being colder, more distant and not really caring about people.

It isn't until much later - if they deal with us longer - that I get people saying to me that actually, in time, my brother's proven fickle, insincere and unreliable; whilst I might not seem to 'give' as much on the surface straight away, what I do give is genuine, deep rooted and enduring. And I appreciate more what they 'give' to me in personal terms.

It could be that this is more due to our backgrounds, him having been Mr Popular at school whilst I was the nerdy loner, so perhaps never having had any difficulty himself with meeting and talking to new people, he doesn't appreciate how hard it can be for others whilst I do.

I've also wondered if his always having been a super flake hasn't been just as instrumental in my learning the ability to switch into J mode as the years I spent around xNTJ's. In contrast to him I can seem much more organized and serious. When he's not around I'm much more carefree, but when he is, I feel like somebody has to keep things together... he'll have my entire household budget blown on one meal and leave my kids to starve if I don't keep a cool head when he gets carried away, I have to be prepared to be 'the boring one'.

Anyway, that's all off topic... or is it? I was thinking what it could be about an ENFP that would make them feel an INTP won't open up to them and relating it to my close encounters with an ENFP since the days when I was more like an INTP in behaviour to now.

 

[Jack Flak]

It could be that this is more due to our backgrounds, him having been Mr Popular at school whilst I was the nerdy loner, so perhaps never having had any difficulty himself with meeting and talking to new people, he doesn't appreciate how hard it can be for others whilst I do.

I relate to that. Not only do I not count on people until they've shown they can be counted upon, nor show affection before I have a good read on a person, it's extremely rare for me to flake out and ditch someone without good reason. I can only remember doing that once, and I would take it back if I could. In friendships or relationships, I keep promises until it's impossible not to. It would violate my internal code of honor to break them, or betray someone's trust, and I would feel like less of a human being.

 

[Salomé]

I relate to that. Not only do I not count on people until they've shown they can be counted upon, nor show affection before I have a good read on a person, it's extremely rare for me to flake out and ditch someone without good reason. I can only remember doing that once, and I would take it back if I could. In friendships or relationships, I keep promises until it's impossible not to. It would violate my internal code of honor to break them, or betray someone's trust, and I would feel like less of a human being.

INTPs are teh best.

 

[substitute]

What Jack said.

 

[Rachelinpa]

Trouble is Rachel, you're not likely to get to a stage of knowing a person well enough to know whether it's worth your while to commit to them a bit more, especially introverts, if they sense this tendency in you. For some people it's very difficult to come out and talk to strangers and try to connect, they're not going to do it with someone who will reward them for it by forgetting they exist ten minutes later.

I can understand that. I try to look out for those people though. The introverts I have encountered sometimes need a little push before they can start talking. Often it helps them at parties and such to not only have a conversation with me, but with other people too. I definitely think if I was being fake and did not care about them on some level, then I wouldn't blame them for hating me for it. But, I hope that my sincere interest in them is communicated...

I guess I'm wondering if you think every interaction merits a potential for a long term relationship. (Obviously, I have not forgotten INTJ ten minutes later because I wouldn't have mentioned him in this post.) I think you can connect with someone and it can be completely real, but it does not mean it has to carry on forever. I don't think it makes the connection less legitimate either.

If you think about it, it isn't very flattering is it? I wonder how you'd feel if you got talking to somebody that YOU felt you wanted to see again, somebody you were impressed by enough to think about committing more to them, and they acted like you were being silly and just casually rejected and abandoned you? And you found out that what you thought was a connection was just them putting on a shallow facade to be polite? Because that's how it feels on the receiving end...

What do you suggest I do? I don't want to come across as shallow or fake, but I'm not sure how much of that is my responsibility. Would you prefer no expression of interest at all?

 

[Rachelinpa]

Not only do I not count on people until they've shown they can be counted upon, nor show affection before I have a good read on a person, it's extremely rare for me to flake out and ditch someone without good reason. I can only remember doing that once, and I would take it back if I could. In friendships or relationships, I keep promises until it's impossible not to. It would violate my internal code of honor to break them, or betray someone's trust, and I would feel like less of a human being.

I think people believe that I am the opposite of this, but that is because they don't actually know who I am. It appears that I am trusting of most people, but in reality very few people know the actual me -- like INTP, I don't count on people until I know they can be trusted either. And, as it has been said, it seems I have more real friends than I do.