[MBTI General] INFJs from the perspective of other types

[Wanderer]

Well, I've never specifically used the word "fickle" with an INFJ (because it's like walking on eggshells concerning them & criticism), but I've certainly thought it about them. I can't say they were fickle internally, but their behavior in certain instances appeared that way to me; I can see why they'd think they are consistent.

FYI, this NFP has NEVER been called fickle either, nor inconsistent, nor unreliable, so it's probably a matter of perspective.

Well. Um. It's just that the trait you're describing isn't something associated with INFJ's. At all..

We're highly selective of who we we choose to be friends with - but once that choice is made, our problem is almost always being able to let go. Which is the exact opposite of being fickle, and why this critique seems out of place. (Note; I am not arguing any of the *prior* critiques, because most of them are relatively accurate to some degree.)
Please see this recently started thread:
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/50942-infj-people-obsessions.html

 

[Viridian]

Agreed. I like when someone truly figures me out, but not when they simply sum me up in a dismissive & usually inaccurate manner.

I've got a lot of respect for people that genuinely work out my modus operandi. I quite like it, because that means that said person recognises the good and bad points about me. Subsequently, that person gets all the "gifts" of my personality beause they've "passed the test".

What I don't like is people that say "you're just X" or "all you care about is X". This is reductive and always wrong.

So INFPs are okay with other people "knowing them inside out"? I wonder if this is a Fi/Fe thing...

 

[Fidelia]

I don't know if I would agree that INFPs can read me extremely well and therefore make me feel exposed and prickly. More often, I feel that they are reading me according to what it would mean if they acted that way and I get prickly because they are incorrect but don't think they are and it's NOT RIGHT! I don't know why accuracy like that matters so much to me, but it does, and you can see evidence of that in most of the threads where I have ever tangled with NFPs. I actually really appreciate someone who does know me inside out and who wants to understand how I tick, so I don't think it's a matter of wanting to retain mystique.

However, I think the INFPs are correct that there is something really unsettling and annoying about someone who wants to make little observations about me as I interact with them. Makes me feel like their science experiment or like they are being patronizing. Perhaps this is more what they are referring to about us wanting to be mysterious, as it does indeed bring out the prickly and blunt side of me towards them. It also probably makes me appear rather sensitive and closed-minded, when my own internal assessment is that I'd be open to their observations, but they have to go about it in the correct manner. My objection is when their assessment is incorrect, in which case I will write off their opinions entirely as I don't feel they are qualified to go on OR when they do hit the nail on the head, they need to be careful that the way in which they do it doesn't seem like they are correcting me or laughing at me when they do not have a close enough relationship/appropriate type of relationship with me to do so.

 

[Anew Leaf]

If I may ask a question... Do INFPs get riled up when people "figure them out" as well? Or do they tend to feel relieved?

I actually find that the XNFJs "get me" the best.

I enjoy people figuring me out *IF* I want them to know me. If I do, then I often make it easier for the other person. Impressive is the person who can figure me out when I am not actively allowing them to get to know me.

If I need to stay protected from someone then I won't make it easier for them and instead I will lead them a merry chase through the Ne Shrubbery Maze and make them think they have found Fi when instead they have found her hologram in the water garden portion of myself.

 

[SilkRoad]

Perhaps this is more what they are referring to about us wanting to be mysterious, as it does indeed bring out the prickly and blunt side of me towards them. It also probably makes me appear rather sensitive and closed-minded, when my own internal assessment is that I'd be open to their observations, but they have to go about it in the correct manner. My objection is when their assessment is incorrect, in which case I will write off their opinions entirely as I don't feel they are qualified to go on OR when they do hit the nail on the head, they need to be careful that the way in which they do it doesn't seem like they are correcting me or laughing at me when they do not have a close enough relationship/appropriate type of relationship with me to do so.

I agree that a good way to get me acting "mysterious" is to read me wrong in a very I-am-right kind of way. ie. I'll probably clam up if I feel someone is really getting me wrong. I won't open up with them in those areas any more and will ask them polite questions about themselves but will turn the subject away from myself and my preoccupations.

And yeah, I can't say I've ever been called fickle. The only context I can imagine it looking that is where on rare occasions I have written someone off harshly and finally. There have been occasions when it could have seemed a bit out of the blue. However, more recently it's either been extremely obvious what the problem is even without discussion being necessary, or else I've come right out and told them very bluntly. Other than that, I get "loyal" quite regularly and also get quite regularly told by certain people that I should walk away from/drop certain other people.

I guess it would be fair to say that I walk away from people/situations only with great difficulties, but when I do it's best to make it harsh and final, because otherwise the emotional fallout will be even worse than it already is.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Been thinking about this.

As a generalization, I guess the only thing that bugs me is that in a thread asking for perspectives, you give them only to be told they aren't "right". And somehow that sums it up well.

Love you guys though.

 

[Fidelia]

I don't think it's so much a matter of shooting other people's perspectives down, as it is coming to an agreement of what parts we see in common with each other and what parts we feel don't jive with our perspective and why. Maybe it's just trying to give more context for behaviours that seem either rejecting or confusing, more than not being open to to other people's POV when it's been requested.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Well. Um. It's just that the trait you're describing isn't something associated with INFJ's. At all..

We're highly selective of who we we choose to be friends with - but once that choice is made, our problem is almost always being able to let go. Which is the exact opposite of being fickle, and why this critique seems out of place. (Note; I am not arguing any of the *prior* critiques, because most of them are relatively accurate to some degree.)
Please see this recently started thread:
http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/50942-infj-people-obsessions.html

It's not mentioned in INFJ profiles, but it is alluded to in both Fe & Ni descriptions (I have Jung's & other descriptions in mind). I can quote some, if you like.
As for NFPs, Ne is certainly alluded to as fickle (and no doubt accounts for the appearance of inconsistency in NFPs), but Fi generally is not (but it is hard to express clearly).

 

[Anew Leaf]

It's not mentioned in INFJ profiles, but it is alluded to in both Fe & Ni descriptions (I have Jung's & other descriptions in mind). I can quote some, if you like.
As for NFPs, Ne is certainly alluded to as fickle (and no doubt accounts for the appearance of inconsistency in NFPs), but Fi generally is not (but it is hard to express clearly).

This.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I don't know if I would agree that INFPs can read me extremely well and therefore make me feel exposed and prickly. More often, I feel that they are reading me according to what it would mean if they acted that way and I get prickly because they are incorrect but don't think they are and it's NOT RIGHT! I don't know why accuracy like that matters so much to me, but it does, and you can see evidence of that in most of the threads where I have ever tangled with NFPs. I actually really appreciate someone who does know me inside out and who wants to understand how I tick, so I don't think it's a matter of wanting to retain mystique.

That is generally not how INFPs think. FiNe doesn't work that way ("how would I feel if...."). I am acutely aware of the subjectivity of feelings & of the multitude of ways human feeling plays out, so that it's rare for me to assume that everyone feels as I do.

However, I think the INFPs are correct that there is something really unsettling and annoying about someone who wants to make little observations about me as I interact with them. Makes me feel like their science experiment or like they are being patronizing. Perhaps this is more what they are referring to about us wanting to be mysterious, as it does indeed bring out the prickly and blunt side of me towards them. It also probably makes me appear rather sensitive and closed-minded, when my own internal assessment is that I'd be open to their observations, but they have to go about it in the correct manner. My objection is when their assessment is incorrect, in which case I will write off their opinions entirely as I don't feel they are qualified to go on OR when they do hit the nail on the head, they need to be careful that the way in which they do it doesn't seem like they are correcting me or laughing at me when they do not have a close enough relationship/appropriate type of relationship with me to do so.

This is not what I was referring to. I don't make observations of people unless asked (evidence being this thread) or in the context of an offhand remark. The only reason I know I've read INFJs well is because they told me I did. They expressed surprise because they felt most people don't read them so well. There was/is no assumption on my part. If I was ever incorrect in these random remarks, they didn't hesitate to correct me.

 

[Anew Leaf]

I don't know if I would agree that INFPs can read me extremely well and therefore make me feel exposed and prickly. More often, I feel that they are reading me according to what it would mean if they acted that way and I get prickly because they are incorrect but don't think they are and it's NOT RIGHT! I don't know why accuracy like that matters so much to me, but it does, and you can see evidence of that in most of the threads where I have ever tangled with NFPs. I actually really appreciate someone who does know me inside out and who wants to understand how I tick, so I don't think it's a matter of wanting to retain mystique.

However, I think the INFPs are correct that there is something really unsettling and annoying about someone who wants to make little observations about me as I interact with them. Makes me feel like their science experiment or like they are being patronizing. Perhaps this is more what they are referring to about us wanting to be mysterious, as it does indeed bring out the prickly and blunt side of me towards them. It also probably makes me appear rather sensitive and closed-minded, when my own internal assessment is that I'd be open to their observations, but they have to go about it in the correct manner. My objection is when their assessment is incorrect, in which case I will write off their opinions entirely as I don't feel they are qualified to go on OR when they do hit the nail on the head, they need to be careful that the way in which they do it doesn't seem like they are correcting me or laughing at me when they do not have a close enough relationship/appropriate type of relationship with me to do so.

I'm gonna go with OA on this as well. That's not how I work either. It may be a starting point when I am trying to work my empathy skills on someone - but it always jumps around to other possibilities, or heck just to what my gut feeling is telling me without any concrete evidence.

Usually when I go solely on Fi and my gut... that's when I scare people the most in how well I am reading them.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I was going to skip responding to this ... but I guess I will.

First off, I'll go for the triple play here:

I don't know if I would agree that INFPs can read me extremely well and therefore make me feel exposed and prickly. More often, I feel that they are reading me according to what it would mean if they acted that way and I get prickly because they are incorrect but don't think they are and it's NOT RIGHT!

At third base:

That is generally not how INFPs think. FiNe doesn't work that way ("how would I feel if...."). I am acutely aware of the subjectivity of feelings & of the multitude of ways human feeling plays out, so that it's rare for me to assume that everyone feels as I do.

The throw to second:

I'm gonna go with OA on this as well. That's not how I work either. It may be a starting point when I am trying to work my empathy skills on someone - but it always jumps around to other possibilities, or heck just to what my gut feeling is telling me without any concrete evidence.

And finally back to first for the "out": I don't work that way either. Think of it as listening to a radio station. I'm not picking what songs I am listening to; they're just on the radio. It's outside of my purview what signals are being broadcast out by the radio station. I'm just tuned in. So, I often find the emotional states of others surprising, in that I pick up on something that I didn't expect to "hear". I then tune into the person more, to try to discern the "why".

My objection is when their assessment is incorrect, in which case I will write off their opinions entirely as I don't feel they are qualified to go on OR when they do hit the nail on the head, they need to be careful that the way in which they do it doesn't seem like they are correcting me or laughing at me when they do not have a close enough relationship/appropriate type of relationship with me to do so.

Now here's the thing: I am not a mind-reader. I try not to presume the "why". I feel what I feel from another person, yes. And I will attempt to figure that out. It may mean I guess though or even project, to try to draw someone out, put myself in those shoes and ascertain what's got another person so upset. INFJ's seem to get really upset when you guess the "why" wrong though. So if I get the emotional state "right", but the reason "wrong", I am thusly "written off". It's kind of annoying, actually. It makes me pretty much want to ignore their emo signals and avoid them until they are ready to talk.

And it really makes some INFJ's a whole hella work, I'll tell you that.

But you're all so cute, how can anyone resist trying?

 

[PeaceBaby]

P.S. IRL, I'm not this forthright with y'all either, or you'd never let me get close in the first place.

 

[SilkRoad]

Now here's the thing: I am not a mind-reader. I try not to presume the "why". I feel what I feel from another person, yes. And I will attempt to figure that out. It may mean I guess though or even project, to try to draw someone out, put myself in those shoes and ascertain what's got another person so upset. INFJ's seem to get really upset when you guess the "why" wrong though. So if I get the emotional state "right", but the reason "wrong", I am thusly "written off". It's kind of annoying, actually. It makes me pretty much want to ignore their emo signals and avoid them until they are ready to talk.

Personally I think you're pretty much spot on there. I can only say that we seem to have a super-hatred of being misunderstood. And I think if we're in a difficult emotional state, feeling misunderstood about the "why" is just going to add more...debris to clear out of the "even this person who cares about me and can at least somewhat relate to my emotional state DOES NOT REALLY GET ME" variety. And there are a lot of people (of any type) who presume they know the "why". (And a lot of the time it has to do with thinking you're more like them than you actually are - again, anyone can be guilty of that.)

I felt very misunderstood earlier this year by a couple of friends (probably ISxJ and xNFP) when in a bad emotional state. They certainly understood that I was feeling dire but I ended up feeling that their advice/suggestions/lectures (and I don't necessarily mean "lecture" in a bad way since I dish them out myself sometimes ) weren't useful and were actually kind of judgmental as they didn't get where I was coming from and why I was feeling the way I did. (And it definitely seemed that they presumed about "why" I was feeling like that, based on their own similar experiences and how they did or didn't feel under those circumstances. I mean, they spelled that out to me pretty clearly.)

As I explained to a mutual INFJ friend later in the year - someone who does tend to very closely get me as we are very similar in many/most respects, and her advice and comments in the above situation were invaluable - it doesn't mean I don't care about and love and value these people, and I know they care about and love and value me, but it makes me want to not go there any more with them about this type of emotional state. Because in both cases I ended up feeling worse, and somewhat resentful, and why would I want to a) feel that way at all, and b) feel that way with my friends who I love? Unfortunately it probably means I'm walling off a part of myself to them. (Incidentally, the INFJ friend seems to feel almost exactly the same about her xSTJ husband and just doesn't go there any more with him about some stuff, I think.)

Is there a way around this? I don't know.

 

[entropie]

Forthrightesness is rigthesness as well !

*damn english is complicated*

 

[Anew Leaf]

Personally I think you're pretty much spot on there. I can only say that we seem to have a super-hatred of being misunderstood. And I think if we're in a difficult emotional state, feeling misunderstood about the "why" is just going to add more...debris to clear out of the "even this person who cares about me and can at least somewhat relate to my emotional state DOES NOT REALLY GET ME" variety. And there are a lot of people (of any type) who presume they know the "why". (And a lot of the time it has to do with thinking you're more like them than you actually are - again, anyone can be guilty of that.)

I felt very misunderstood earlier this year by a couple of friends (probably ISxJ and xNFP) when in a bad emotional state. They certainly understood that I was feeling dire but I ended up feeling that their advice/suggestions/lectures (and I don't necessarily mean "lecture" in a bad way since I dish them out myself sometimes ) weren't useful and were actually kind of judgmental as they didn't get where I was coming from and why I was feeling the way I did. (And it definitely seemed that they presumed about "why" I was feeling like that, based on their own similar experiences and how they did or didn't feel under those circumstances. I mean, they spelled that out to me pretty clearly.)

As I explained to a mutual INFJ friend later in the year - someone who does tend to very closely get me as we are very similar in many/most respects, and her advice and comments in the above situation were invaluable - it doesn't mean I don't care about and love and value these people, and I know they care about and love and value me, but it makes me want to not go there any more with them about this type of emotional state. Because in both cases I ended up feeling worse, and somewhat resentful, and why would I want to a) feel that way at all, and b) feel that way with my friends who I love? Unfortunately it probably means I'm walling off a part of myself to them. (Incidentally, the INFJ friend seems to feel almost exactly the same about her xSTJ husband and just doesn't go there any more with him about some stuff, I think.)

Is there a way around this? I don't know.

Let go a little. No one is perfect. If you don't explain yourself, then it's very difficult to be understood. I think INFPs are very similar in that we hate being misunderstood, especially when we are trying to communicate via Fi. However, it's an idealistic fantasty to expect others to always 100% understand me all of the time.

I have a really good INTP friend who is quite good at "getting me" some of the time. But I occasionally have these moments where I think, is he for real? Did he just say that?! And I have to remember that he isn't me, and that he is making an effort to understand me and put himself out there a little bit in being my friend. It's just a different language of empathy that is being used. Now, I may have an easier time explaining myself to my ENFP or ENFJ or INFJ girlfriends - more shortcuts, less words - but the fact remains that all of these people care about me and want to help me.

So while it is a wonderful luxury to have those moments when someone truly gets you on that amazing level - one cannot live on that kind of cake alone.

(I hope I come off right to you here - I am not trying to talk down or anything to you. It's more of a "here is a lesson I learned because I see myself in what you said". I hope that came across!)

P.S. I mah INFJ fwends!

 

[SilkRoad]

Let go a little. No one is perfect. If you don't explain yourself, then it's very difficult to be understood. I think INFPs are very similar in that we hate being misunderstood, especially when we are trying to communicate via Fi. However, it's an idealistic fantasty to expect others to always 100% understand me all of the time.

I have a really good INTP friend who is quite good at "getting me" some of the time. But I occasionally have these moments where I think, is he for real? Did he just say that?! And I have to remember that he isn't me, and that he is making an effort to understand me and put himself out there a little bit in being my friend. It's just a different language of empathy that is being used. Now, I may have an easier time explaining myself to my ENFP or ENFJ or INFJ girlfriends - more shortcuts, less words - but the fact remains that all of these people care about me and want to help me.

So while it is a wonderful luxury to have those moments when someone truly gets you on that amazing level - one cannot live on that kind of cake alone.

(I hope I come off right to you here - I am not trying to talk down or anything to you. It's more of a "here is a lesson I learned because I see myself in what you said". I hope that came across!)

P.S. I mah INFJ fwends!

No you weren't talking down at all. And yeah, I probably do need to let go a little. It is often about timing as well. I was in all-round not good shape earlier this year, and neither were my friends, particularly. Possibly none of us were in the best sort of places for either dispensing or receiving this type of advice.

For someone like me in particular it can also be a cumulative thing (most things are cumulative). When you've ended up in an unpleasant situation at least in part because someone totally misunderstood the type of person you are, it feels that much worse when your friends then misunderstand your feelings over the situation. Misunderstanding upon misunderstanding.

 

[Anew Leaf]

No you weren't talking down at all. And yeah, I probably do need to let go a little. It is often about timing as well. I was in all-round not good shape earlier this year, and neither were my friends, particularly. Possibly none of us were in the best sort of places for either dispensing or receiving this type of advice.

For someone like me in particular it can also be a cumulative thing (most things are cumulative). When you've ended up in an unpleasant situation at least in part because someone totally misunderstood the type of person you are, it feels that much worse when your friends then misunderstand your feelings over the situation. Misunderstanding upon misunderstanding.

*gives out misunderstood *

Also, people suck! hehe (cynical side takes over)

 

[uumlau]

Now here's the thing: I am not a mind-reader. I try not to presume the "why". I feel what I feel from another person, yes. And I will attempt to figure that out. It may mean I guess though or even project, to try to draw someone out, put myself in those shoes and ascertain what's got another person so upset. INFJ's seem to get really upset when you guess the "why" wrong though. So if I get the emotional state "right", but the reason "wrong", I am thusly "written off". It's kind of annoying, actually. It makes me pretty much want to ignore their emo signals and avoid them until they are ready to talk.

And it really makes some INFJ's a whole hella work, I'll tell you that.

But you're all so cute, how can anyone resist trying?

Yeah, I can see how that'd be frustrating. But the prime question for any Ni-dom is "why", not "what". So when you express your opinion in these regards, and get the "why" wrong, that's the same as getting everything wrong, from the Ni-dom perspective.

It goes both ways, Ni-doms get frustrated at reading each others' "why" wrong, too. My INFJ Mom mostly understood me, but she didn't understand a lot of my core motivations, since they were Te/Fi based.

xNFPs (including you, of course), on the other hand, tend to understand me (mostly by suppressing their annoyance with my Te-style pronouncements), and I find that they don't (usually) try to assert that they know "why" I feel a particular way, but they definitely know what I feel, on my terms. Thus I suspect INFJs might be hearing/intuiting an xNFP "why" that isn't really there.

 

[Anew Leaf]

Yeah, I can see how that'd be frustrating. But the prime question for any Ni-dom is "why", not "what". So when you express your opinion in these regards, and get the "why" wrong, that's the same as getting everything wrong, from the Ni-dom perspective.

It goes both ways, Ni-doms get frustrated at reading each others' "why" wrong, too. My INFJ Mom mostly understood me, but she didn't understand a lot of my core motivations, since they were Te/Fi based.

xNFPs (including you, of course), on the other hand, tend to understand me (mostly by suppressing their annoyance with my Te-style pronouncements), and I find that they don't (usually) try to assert that they know "why" I feel a particular way, but they definitely know what I feel, on my terms. Thus I suspect INFJs might be hearing/intuiting an xNFP "why" that isn't really there.

That makes a lot of sense. I think I tend to leave out the "why" of things... it doesn't really have to matter that someone is upset (at least initially), just the fact that they ARE upset is what matters. Once that immediacy is dealt with then we can refocus on the why of things. (So long as it isn't intruding upon their private territories.)

Hmm, I haven't really broken down how I deal with someone when they are upset/having a problem... Ok! Someone become upset and be my guinea pig! I need to work my NF magic upon thee!