[ENFP] INFJ and ENFP relationship

[Starry]

As I’ve said here and there before- and as always, essentially only speaking for myself (though others have tended to agree)- I think a large part of needing ‘external harmony’ is because Ti is so easily drowned out that it’s too hard to communicate without it. Imagine trying to figure out how you feel while someone is standing right there saying NO YOU SHOULD FEEL *THIS* every time you tried talking about it? I’m not sure if that translates well as being reciprocal, I just know that dealing with heavy Te will make me think “Aw f#ck it!” and I’ll completely give up on even trying to communicate. It isn’t that I’m thinking “We need to pretend everything is roses, because then reality will follow suit.” It’s more about heavy Te coming across as really invasive, interrupting me with ‘THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD THINK’ so much that I’m not even able to effectively put my own thoughts together over the din of it.

edit: Lol, I just noticed EW also posted basically the same thing just before me (while I was writing this post).

But this is also very much like what you and I were discussing that we were attributing (whether rightly or wrongly so)...to Ne & Ni. Nailing down internal reality vs external reality. Who the heck knows what this stuff is about and what does what. Something's going on... : )

EDIT: whoops...I'm totally sick and not even really awake yet so I probably shouldn't have posted. That may have come out weird. I was just thinking that I have seen the same phenomenon described and attributed to N...F...and T.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

^That's a good point. Ni likes the external world to remain more static so that there's freedom in the internal world, so that we can play with meanings and find ways of looking at things in a new light- so any emo upheaval in the external environment feels a lot more chaotic to us. I want fluidity in my internal landscape- so I need my external landscape to chill. But Ne can more easily handle it- Ne'ers crave stillness in their internal landscape, and 'anything goes' with their external.

 

[Starry]

^That's a good point. Ni likes the external world to remain more static so that there's freedom in the internal world, so that we can play with meanings and find ways of looking at things in a new light- so any emo upheaval in the external environment feels a lot more chaotic to us. I want fluidity in my internal landscape- so I need my external landscape to chill. But Ne can more easily handle it- Ne'ers crave stillness in their internal landscape, and 'anything goes' with their external.

Yah...in answer to EW's Fi/Te and Fe/Ti question....for me...I score so pathetically low on Te ( <--- like it's down there with Se & Si haha! I'm more Ne>Fi>Ni>Ti) I think the differences I experience with INFJs can only be attributed to the Ne/Fi Ni/Fe bridge. I have no idea if that even made sense!!! haha. Pass the theraflu!!!

 

[cascadeco]

Yeah, I dunno, I think topics like these are what has caused me to throw my hands up in the air re. mbti, as I often tend to relate to multiple sides / FiTe elements and FeTi elements. It's like a convoluted mix of things for me. Maybe too I just don't know how I actually work - in a way where I'm able to translate it into mbti- even though I feel like I understand myself well.

External harmony's great, and desirable, but it's a bit of a facade if the internal is unraveling / I sense we're in internally different places. Also, if internally I'm feeling something is off, I can't even pretend to go along merrily externally, nor do I think that speaks well or bodes well to the true health and compatibility of both people in the relationship; it's something that I need to talk through with the person. (In short, I don't think it's desirable or does anyone any good to keep things in and keep up an external facade if it doesn't jive with the internal). External and internal have to allign for me.

 

[Thalassa]

This has been my experience with Fe users as well. My first love was an INFJ. I didn't know anything about MBTI or Jungian Cognitive Functions back then, but looking back on it there were clearly some Fe / Fi issues going on between us.

I used to say that one of the ways my INFJ ex drove me crazy was that he wanted to smooth over conflict by "pretending it didn't happen." In retrospect, I've come to understand that it's not that he wanted to "pretend" it didn't happen. It's just that he wanted to ensure a congenial outer world before he tackled his inner world. I was just the opposite. I wanted to get our inner world all fixed up before tackling our outer world. We each felt like the other was getting things backwards and this caused a lot of tension between us.

Just for the record, now that I understand the dynamic between Fe and Fi better, I think such obstacles could be relatively easily overcome. But back then, it just seemed like he was always missing the point.

I love the warm, gushy nurturing of Fe, though. I mean I understand why Fi people have a problem with bad Fe, or Fe that has conflicting values, I certainly do, but I cannot demonize Fe types because I seem to be quite attracted to some of them both as female or male friends, and as lovers.

I also think that's why I'm an Fi dom versus a Pe dom, because I think Te is my animus (this is ideally what a man *should* be, cool calm collected hard-working in control, etc.) and I'm strongly attracted to Fe men (opposing personality).

 

[SubtleFighter]

Damn! I had a post all typed out, and then when I went to post it, I had timed out and it got erased! Augh . . . I really liked it too! *grumbles some more*

So anyway, here is take two (typed onto Word first!):


I also notice the tension with ENFPs wanting to air out problems in the relationship more than me in my experiences with ENFPs. But the idea that Fe-users always try to avoid external conflict seems off to me. I believe there comes a point where talking over a problem in the relationship (platonic or romantic) is healthy, and I think that the majority of Fe-users feel this way too.

This is how I see it:

When Fe-users want to talk about a problem or a disagreement, there are “rules” that they follow in order to try to take the disagreement out of “the realm of the personal.” This is because since these issues in a relationship involve feelings and people, they are inherently personal (to Fe). So to try to avoid hurt feelings on the other person’s part, they use “codes” to try to signal to the other person that it’s not meant personally. These are things like saying something positive or something that you agree about first, and then going into the thing that you disagree about second. It could also be things like saying “to me,” “I believe,” “I could be wrong, but it seems like…” (it could be arguably said that some of these things also have to do with Ti coming into play).

But ENFPs use Te to try to sort out issues in a relationship, which there’s nothing wrong with. But Te doesn’t use these “codes” to signal it’s not personal, because when using Te, it’s already impersonal. But this can cause tension when an Fe-user is looking at the Te message through the lens of Fe (which is extremely hard not to do). The Fe-user sees the Te message as not using these “codes,” and so it comes across as harsh and at worst aggressive. The Fe-user then feels defensive, and then could react by retreating from talking about the relationship problems because they know they’ll react in a defensive way and are trying to avoid hurting the person they care about (which would then be viewed by the Fi/Te user as avoiding dealing with the relationship problem altogether). Or worse, the Fe-user could react to the Te message by becoming aggressive themselves (which they view as being a response to the Te-user’s—perceived but not normally actual—aggressiveness), and then the conflict really rises. Once Fe and Te start butting heads, it’s all downhill from there, IMO.

Again, I’m not saying either of these approaches is inherently wrong, but that the methods tend to rub each other the wrong way.

To be honest, although I do see Te as having its uses and not being inherently wrong, I don’t do too well when someone starts using it with me IRL. I try to dodge it as much as possible. I don’t mean that I avoid Fi/Te users (in fact, the majority of people I know are Fi/Te users) but that if I notice that someone is trying to use it with me, I hedge around it. I try to access their Fi instead, or simply get out of its way. I want to be able to deal with Te messages better; it’s a work in progress for me. (Edit: I'm in trouble--I just started becoming friends with an INTJ--ha. This'll be good practice for me with trying to get better with this.)

 

[Esoteric Wench]

[MENTION=12341]SubtleFighter[/MENTION] (or anyone else reading this thread) do you have advice on how a Te user (like me) might be able to present their Te in a little less Fe-user-freaking-out kind of way? I'd really like to be able to use my Te around Fe users without freaking them out. Te can be a wonderful thing. Like I said before, Te is about getting shit done. And shit just sometimes has to get done. But I certainly don't want to create unintended anxiety/hostility with it. Any words of advice would be appreciated.

 

[Starry]

Te is about getting shit done.

Okay. Now I see why I score so low on Te. ha!

 

[skylights]

As I’ve said here and there before- and as always, essentially only speaking for myself (though others have tended to agree)- I think a large part of needing ‘external harmony’ is because Ti is so easily drowned out that it’s too hard to communicate without it. Imagine trying to figure out how you feel while someone is standing right there saying NO YOU SHOULD FEEL *THIS* every time you tried talking about it? I’m not sure if that translates well as being reciprocal, I just know that dealing with heavy Te will make me think “Aw f#ck it!” and I’ll completely give up on even trying to communicate. It isn’t that I’m thinking “We need to pretend everything is roses, because then reality will follow suit.” It’s more about heavy Te coming across as really invasive, interrupting me with ‘THIS IS WHAT YOU SHOULD THINK’ so much that I’m not even able to effectively put my own thoughts together over the din of it.

edit: Lol, I just noticed EW also posted basically the same thing just before me (while I was writing this post).

It is really interesting to look at your post and mine (describing the same thing, but from polar opposite ends) right next to each other.

[even further editing/adding:] I'm inclined to say that heavy Te actually gives me paralysis because it feels very much like a stadium blowhorn going off inches from my face.....I just can't think around it.

Valuable knowledge, thank you... this will be very helpful in my personal life...

To me, using heavy Te occurs when I am overwhelmed and stressed out, and it "silences" things for me... it makes things simple, easy, manageable. It allows me to escape the sometimes self-engulfing emotions of Fi. I never realized that it could be deafening to others, too.

I feel the same way about Fe sometimes though, interestingly. Like the need for external quiet silences my internal Fi voice.

So how do we overcome the opposing needs for external quiet and internal speech in the F and T universes...? Being aware of our external Judging function more, and how we need to be gentle with it around others?

 

[skylights]

Damn! I had a post all typed out, and then when I went to post it, I had timed out and it got erased! Augh . . . I really liked it too! *grumbles some more*

So anyway, here is take two (typed onto Word first!):


I also notice the tension with ENFPs wanting to air out problems in the relationship more than me in my experiences with ENFPs. But the idea that Fe-users always try to avoid external conflict seems off to me. I believe there comes a point where talking over a problem in the relationship (platonic or romantic) is healthy, and I think that the majority of Fe-users feel this way too.

This is how I see it:

When Fe-users want to talk about a problem or a disagreement, there are “rules” that they follow in order to try to take the disagreement out of “the realm of the personal.” This is because since these issues in a relationship involve feelings and people, they are inherently personal (to Fe). So to try to avoid hurt feelings on the other person’s part, they use “codes” to try to signal to the other person that it’s not meant personally. These are things like saying something positive or something that you agree about first, and then going into the thing that you disagree about second. It could also be things like saying “to me,” “I believe,” “I could be wrong, but it seems like…” (it could be arguably said that some of these things also have to do with Ti coming into play).

But ENFPs use Te to try to sort out issues in a relationship, which there’s nothing wrong with. But Te doesn’t use these “codes” to signal it’s not personal, because when using Te, it’s already impersonal. But this can cause tension when an Fe-user is looking at the Te message through the lens of Fe (which is extremely hard not to do). The Fe-user sees the Te message as not using these “codes,” and so it comes across as harsh and at worst aggressive. The Fe-user then feels defensive, and then could react by retreating from talking about the relationship problems because they know they’ll react in a defensive way and are trying to avoid hurting the person they care about (which would then be viewed by the Fi/Te user as avoiding dealing with the relationship problem altogether). Or worse, the Fe-user could react to the Te message by becoming aggressive themselves (which they view as being a response to the Te-user’s—perceived but not normally actual—aggressiveness), and then the conflict really rises. Once Fe and Te start butting heads, it’s all downhill from there, IMO.

Again, I’m not saying either of these approaches is inherently wrong, but that the methods tend to rub each other the wrong way.

To be honest, although I do see Te as having its uses and not being inherently wrong, I don’t do too well when someone starts using it with me IRL. I try to dodge it as much as possible. I don’t mean that I avoid Fi/Te users (in fact, the majority of people I know are Fi/Te users) but that if I notice that someone is trying to use it with me, I hedge around it. I try to access their Fi instead, or simply get out of its way. I want to be able to deal with Te messages better; it’s a work in progress for me. (Edit: I'm in trouble--I just started becoming friends with an INTJ--ha. This'll be good practice for me with trying to get better with this.)

Wow, that's really interesting. Thank you so much for describing all of that. To me, the "codes" you talk about with Fe are frustrating and make things feel not genuine. With Fi-Te, I do want to air everything out, and I want to get right down to the bottom of what both people feel, every negative and positive, everything between us, and then we can look at it together and sort it all out. I understand wanting to protect the other, but to me, that just seems stifling and like we're trying to hide from each other... I think I'm suffering from that in my relationship now, honestly. It's so hard for me to feel deep emotional intimacy with the other person if I'm never allowed to express myself completely, or if my SO won't express himself completely. The bolded is spot on.

So like EW is asking... how can Fi-Te users present what we need to share without running Fe off? Most of us have a poor grasp of Ti at best, and have a very hard time knowing what kinds of codes we should use to protect the other person.

 

[SubtleFighter]

I feel torn because I do want to help you guys, but this is something that I’ll need to spend more time thinking about because even though I have tons of thoughts floating around in my head about this, most of it isn’t in a coherent form yet. And I wish I had more time right now to do that (the end of the semester is upon me and is hijacking my time and energy). The other posts I made in this thread were things I had already given a lot of thought to, so I was able to do that. Augh. But here’s what I got at the moment:

These codes are in a lot of ways dependent on circumstances, so it’s hard to talk about them in ways that will apply to every or most circumstances. But some general things are that it depends on are how close you are to the other person and what kind of information is being talked about in the Te-message. For instance, if the Te message is about things that are impersonal (such as a discussion on whether the current version of American English or the current version of British English is closer to the way British English was back in the 1700s), then you’re talking to the INFJ’s NiTi instead of Fe. (I feel like the rules/codes and how this all works will be a bit different for non-INFJ Fe-users, but I’ll speak from this perspective because that’s the one that I have the most knowledge about—hopefully most of what I’m saying will have some value in regards to other Fe-users as well.) This is I think where what Z Buck McFate was saying comes into play the most, in that it can feel like the Te message is demanding that we think a certain way when it speaks in definitive terms. If you want to soften that, try using terms like “I think,” “I believe,” “In my opinion,” “It seems like.” I understand that most of the time, the person using Te is expecting that if the other person disagrees that they will just say so, but I second the stadium blowhorn analogy in that it’s hard to have a discussion with a message that feels like that.

However, if the Te message is not impersonal, but it’s talking about something that a person could improve on or a relationship could improve on, then it sometimes feels like a personal attack. In some way, let the person know at the beginning of the conversation that this is not meant personally and that you care about them as a person and just want to discuss these things. I mentioned before doing something like stating something that you agree with the person about first and then stating what your disagreement is second. Saying something you agree with them first is a signal that says that it’s not meant as an attack. (For an example, I used this at the beginning of my previous post—after the grumbling about timing out.) But this is normally something that’s used in the middle of a conversation, not at the beginning. If you’re the end introducing the subject, again, it would be helpful to let them know at the very start before you say anything else that it’s not meant personally and that you still care about them. Even as I’m typing this, it seems kind of a weird thing to say because if you’re close to someone, it may feel like ‘of course I care about you, why would I have a close relationship with you in the first place if I didn’t’, but I’m just saying this because of the nature of how Te message can appear sometimes to Fe users as attacks.

There have been a few times when an ENFP has flat out said things like this to me directly before launching into a Te analysis of our friendship or something that I could improve on. There was one time where I was having a conversation with her, and she suddenly stopped after I said something, got a lecturing look on her face and in her tone (this only happens when she’s about to use Te), and said plainly, “I love ya. But let’s talk.” And then she told in me in a Te way of things that I was doing that she thought were hurtful to me and to her. I’ll admit that the Te tone was abrupt to me and made me feel defensive, but I kept thinking about how she started out with “I love ya.” It reminded me that in spite of how I was reacting to the manner of her message, she really did care about me and had good intentions with me. So I responded to her in a non-defensive way, and we ended up having a good conversation.

It would probably be helpful to just state something directly like that at the beginning. Also, if this is a person who you’re close to and will be spending a lot of time with, you may want to have a conversation with them explaining that this is your style of speaking when discussing problems and issues, but that they should know that it in no way means that you think less of them but that it means that you care about them and want to help them and your relationship. I would still give a disclaimer at the beginning of every time you start a Te discussion just to remind them.

If the Fe-user is not someone you’re close to . . . then it’s more iffy in terms of not raising hackles. Even giving a disclaimer before a conversation like that involving something personal may still not be enough. I’m still fuzzy in my mind about this circumstance.

uumlau is an expert at delivering Te messages in an Fe-friendly way when he’s over in the NF sphere. Maybe study what he does?

I wish I had more time to think about this at the moment. Do any Fe-users reading this thread have any other advice?

(BTW, can someone tell me how to do mentions? I tried to do it for Z Buck and uumlau, but I can't figure it out. Thanks!)

 

[SubtleFighter]

On the other hand, is there any advice that you guys (or any Fi-users) have as far as how Fe-users can avoid hurting Fi-users when we're talking to them?

 

[sulfit]

INFJ-ENTP relationship is that of extinguishment: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/list.php/category/28-Intertype-Relations?page=2
It starts off with a spark but later gets really awkward.

A better relationship type for INFJ is with ISTP or ESTP and for ENFP it's with ESTJ or ISTJ.

 

[Spiritual Science]

INFJ-ENTP relationship is that of extinguishment: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/list.php/category/28-Intertype-Relations?page=2
It starts off with a spark but later gets really awkward.

A better relationship type for INFJ is with ISTP or ESTP and for ENFP it's with ESTJ or ISTJ.

Right . . . the INFJ-ENTP relationship is one of extinguishment, but the INFJ-ENFP relationship is a mirror relationship. Just wanted to clarify this thread is about INFJ-ENFP, but I'm sorry if you're referring to another post and I missed the reference.

 

[Starry]

INFJ-ENTP relationship is that of extinguishment: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/list.php/category/28-Intertype-Relations?page=2
It starts off with a spark but later gets really awkward.

A better relationship type for INFJ is with ISTP or ESTP and for ENFP it's with ESTJ or ISTJ.

Totally no big deal...but you typed 'INFJ - ENTP relationship'...when this thread is pertaining to INFJ - ENFP (I didn't go to the link to see if that was just a typo).

You know...I personally haven't ever heard of an INFJ - ENTP relationship lasting...but I'm sure they exist. They must...even if these relationships are considered more challenging for whatever reason by whatever 'expert'. I actually think in many cases the communication is 'better'...easier...at least in the very beginning...than it is with INFJ - ENFP. I think it does take some time for INFJs & ENFPs to 'learn' how to communicate with each other...(athough with my INFJ female friend...I just feel like I'm talking to a more articulate/intellectual version of myself and it has always been that way from the beginning). With INFJ - ENFP relationships...I've heard of it going both ways. I've heard of couples falling in love...and living out their days like they're taken from the pages of a fricken romance novel...(I've actually heard of some very old INFJ ENFP couples...like married 20, 30, 40 years and still going)...and then I've heard of these relationships falling-apart very quickly. You just never know.

 

[cascadeco]

You know...I personally haven't ever heard of an INFJ - ENTP relationship lasting...but I'm sure they exist. They must...even if these relationships are considered more challenging for whatever reason by whatever 'expert'. I actually think in many cases the communication is 'better'...easier...at least in the very beginning...than it is with INFJ - ENFP. I think it does take some time for INFJs & ENFPs to 'learn' how to communicate with each other...(athough with my INFJ female friend...I just feel like I'm talking to a more articulate/intellectual version of myself and it has always been that way from the beginning). With INFJ - ENFP relationships...I've heard of it going both ways. I've heard of couples falling in love...and living out their days like they're taken from the pages of a fricken romance novel...(I've actually heard of some very old INFJ ENFP couples...like married 20, 30, 40 years and still going)...and then I've heard of these relationships falling-apart very quickly. You just never know.

I know there's an ENTP/INFJ couple on here (neither really post anymore though) - LiquidLaser and Ladypinkerton. So yeah, they do exist.

From personal experience (not that I've *been* in one, although I can cite friendships/potential-relationships-that-never-went-anywhere), I think there is a certain aspect of effortless of understanding/communication, at least *initially*, but over time it becomes apparent it's almost exclusively a cerebral connection/intuitive-fun-land, and there's nothing tangible sustaining any of it, and both approach life and make decisions extremely differently... thus a 'common goal'/vision is very challenging or non-existent (at least, and obviously, in the unsuccessful pairings. If successful, I would think the tangibles would have to align).

It's a deal where initially you think you understand each other perfectly, but over time realize you don't, not at all...or at least, not in the way you thought you did. Easy to be caught up in the early stages though. Of course, it's not like this phenomenon isn't present in other/all pairings.... w/ ENTP/INFJ I think the divide/challenge is the Ne/Ni difference and the EP / IJ thing. The shared FeTi isn't all it's cracked up to be. Basically... pros and cons to everything!

 

[EcK]

INFJ-ENTP relationship is that of extinguishment: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/list.php/category/28-Intertype-Relations?page=2
It starts off with a spark but later gets really awkward.

A better relationship type for INFJ is with ISTP or ESTP and for ENFP it's with ESTJ or ISTJ.

Right . . . the INFJ-ENTP relationship is one of extinguishment, but the INFJ-ENFP relationship is a mirror relationship. Just wanted to clarify this thread is about INFJ-ENFP, but I'm sorry if you're referring to another post and I missed the reference.

As Bill Clinton would say. Thats socionics, stupid.
its describing what in mbti would be the infp-entp relationship. If you ve read the description it d be obvious that it doesnt make sense. INFj (EII, Fi-Ne) Right.

I ve dated an infp. Didnt work out. She's a friend but I wouldn't want a deeper connection with her. Now I dont exactly have the kind of sample to make statistics out of it and anecdotal data is just that. I ve had isfps and infp interest toward me, it generally was fun to chat for a while but it stopped there as far as I was concerned. I find I cannot feel attraction toward people I feel/think/vibe couldn't handle who i actually am without taking it personally. I'd rather explain and apologize at times knowing it isn't needed as anything else than a sign of appreciation and true respect rather than being restricted in the topics I get to talk about if I want to maintain the relationship. Now ofc there is individual variation so im just referring to my limited experience.

 

[Spiritual Science]

As Bill Clinton would say. Thats socionics, stupid.
its describing what in mbti would be the infp-entp relationship. If you ve read the description it d be obvious that it doesnt make sense. INFj (EII, Fi-Ne) Right.

I'm confused now. Was I wrong to correct this person? I guess I'm a noob when it comes to typology and I don't sufficiently understand the difference between socionics and mbti. What does (EII, Fi-Ne) mean? And why is the j lowercase. Sorry for the noob questions.

 

[EcK]

I'm confused now. Was I wrong to correct this person? I guess I'm a noob when it comes to typology and I don't sufficiently understand the difference between socionics and mbti. What does (EII, Fi-Ne) mean? And why is the j lowercase. Sorry for the noob questions.

That's okey. Socionics is a different system. It uses jungian functions as well and is very similar to mbti in many ways but some types are different. The socionics infp is the mbti infj basically. Or at least thats as close as you are going to get.
In MBTI INFP and INFJ or ENTP and ENTJ are very different types. Think of it as someone liking icing on cakes, creamy white fluffy cakes with a zest of citrus... but ones uses it to throw it on clowns the other to market it. Most preferences seem to make them similar people but the fact that the finality is so different hint at the fact that they are driven by very different processes.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

INFP and INFJ are very different types just as ENTP and ENTJ are very different types. Think of it as someone liking icing on cakes, creamy white fluffy cakes with a zest of citrus... but ones uses it to throw it on clowns the other to market it. Most preferences seem to make them similar people but the fact that the finality is so different hint at the fact that they are in driven by very different processes.

This is true. A lot of noobies to MBTI underestimate how different the one letter (be it P or J) makes between two types that have all their other letters in common. For example, ENFPs and ENFJs are only one letter apart, but they operate in entirely different mind spaces. Enitrely. And, at least on this forum they are notorious for not getting along with each other.

The differences become easier to spot if you look at the Jungian Cognitive Functions (JCFs):

ENFP = Ne > Fi > Te > Si
ENFJ = Fe > Ni > Se > Ti

Nary a single function in common (at least in the top four functions).