Incels.

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I am going to have a widely different opinion on sex, because I am an asexual.

I think there are societal benefits due to involuntary, or voluntary celibacy. Sexual energy can be transformed into passion for work and study. Many great minds, who changed the world, also had trouble finding love. (It is just much harder to find that work today.) Religion too, espouses the happiness that blossoms from finding alternative means of pleasure in daily life, and not the engagement of sex. They view it as an "animalistic act", and what separates humans from animals is the ability to discipline ourselves. That only when we stop being animalistic, can we truly actualize as higher beings. Delayed gratification makes a lot of difference in one's happiness too. Too much of a "good" thing, is bad. I've seen many talk about they key to higher thought is abstinence in both philosophy, and religion. So I think there is some truth to it. I do agree sex is a normal and healthy thing, but I also think it shouldn't be indulged in extensively.

I do wonder about things like this from time to time. The idea of pursuing some kind of monk-like lifestyle does actually hold some appeal for me, as a way of avoiding distractions and a personal path (not that I follow it).

I think incels (as they are commonly understood) are less about that, though, and more reacting to some combination of poor self-confidence and accumulated memories of failures. And personally, I get it on a certain level. I hate dating for the same reasons I hate job interviews, and if you're in the situation where you haven't had a lot of success, it can be incredibly annoying to hear people complain about getting too much attention, like some people do.

I do think there's an extremely uncomfortable double-bind men (not that women don't have double-binds of their own) are placed into with regards to sexuality. On the one hand, it's expected that men always get full verbal sober (this is the weird part when most dates I've been on take place in bars) affirmative consent for each step of the way, but on the other hand, if you're not constantly looking for opportunities to push things further, or even show signs of hesitation, it's viewed as abnormal (and women have actually told me this; it's not just conjecture on my part), disinterested, or a sign of being a possible closet case. So the social expectation are not really clear, and people aren't exactly stepping up to clarify them.

So yeah, on a certain level, I understand where they're coming from. But it's totally a wrong approach. It's much better to work on overcoming all those frustrations and just pushing through the setbacks when they happen. The development of fortitude is important in general and can be useful in coping with many of the things life throws at you, not just with regards to dating. It's certainly more productive than joining a weird support group that wants to make an identity out of being a failure, possibly before committing unspeakable violent acts.

Also, it speaks to the failure of PUA culture, that evidently it is not the cure all for dating woes that it was advertised as, if people are moving from redpill to blackpill like this. If it was as effective as it was made out to be, there wouldn't be blackpills.

 

[Jaguar]

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Screw them.

 

[Tater]

Incels should overcome the sinful desire for non-marital sex.

Sounds like incel talk.

 

[Deprecator]

Considering that I have enough of my own problems to deal with, it's been increasingly difficult for me to feel much sympathy for many of the complaints other people might have these days. Lot's of people aren't getting as much sex as they want or aren't making as much money as they want; take a ticket and join the club. Though at the same time, I do think it's interesting how if a guy complains about not ever being able to have sex, a common response is that it's 100% their own fault for being an autistic incel with no social skills. In contrast, if a woman complains about getting more sex than they want, then not only is it absolutely never their fault, but they're also super brave for being able to come forward and talk about their experience.

Regardless, I will say that every time I managed to sleep with a woman, or get hired for a job, or performed well on a test.... it usually took A LOT of work from my end. It's one thing to say that you want to do well with something/ experience a positive outcome, and it's another thing altogether to actually put all the work needed to actually make that happen.

 

[Sacrophagus]

The idea that sexuality is inherently sinful without the human invented idea of marriage is just as harmful as any of the other issues here.

What's wrong with sex? If it's consensual between adults? It can be animalistic, sure, but it can also be spiritual in its own way. Why should we not enjoy ourselves while we're alive?

The answer is certainly not to tell them how sinful and awful they are for giving in to their evil urges, when those urges are normal and not evil. They're just human.

"Sometimes you just have to eat the pussy, son." -
From Pussy and Puppies: The Decline Of Civilizations.

 

[Sacrophagus]

.
Screw them.

They would like that.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I really like that this thread hasn't devolved into a tired rehash of the same arguments that we've all encountered a thousand times before. Perhaps premature, but worth stating.

 

[Luminous]

Just let anybody do what they please, as long as it doesn't hurt anybody.
Also thinking that women only go after the rich or whatever is fucking wrong.

Yes. And also wrong is the idea that women in general get more sex than they want.

 

[ceecee]

Sounds like incel talk.

I've honestly never heard an incel invoke religion. Government supplied sex slaves - yes.

 

[Luminous]

I am going to have a widely different opinion on sex, because I am an asexual.

I think there are societal benefits due to involuntary, or voluntary celibacy. Sexual energy can be transformed into passion for work and study. Many great minds, who changed the world, also had trouble finding love. (It is just much harder to find that work today.) Religion too, espouses the happiness that blossoms from finding alternative means of pleasure in daily life, and not the engagement of sex. They view it as an "animalistic act", and what separates humans from animals is the ability to discipline ourselves. That only when we stop being animalistic, can we truly actualize as higher beings. Delayed gratification makes a lot of difference in one's happiness too. Too much of a "good" thing, is bad. I've seen many talk about they key to higher thought is abstinence in both philosophy, and religion. So I think there is some truth to it. I do agree sex is a normal and healthy thing, but I also think it shouldn't be indulged in extensively.

I think some people can likely be happy and content with celibacy, but there are others where, no, that energy cannot be transformed into passion for work and study. It just becomes a source of discontent, distraction, disappointment, depression, and takes away from those other nonsexual aspects of life because there's a constant need that is not being fulfilled.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Nope. "Thot". Or "you should be grateful for that". Never seen anybody praise a woman about that.

It's the vision in general about men and women that's wrong. I don't agree with fourth wave feminism, I think it's doing more harm than good, but, as long as we're setting double standards, we're all screwed, both men and women. Just let anybody do what they please, as long as it doesn't hurt anybody.

I genuinely do believe in getting rid of double standards, and treating everybody as individuals regardless of gender. I'd say I'm generally supportive of good-faith efforts to do this, regardless of label.

I've honestly never heard an incel invoke religion. Government supplied sex slaves - yes.

The incel movement is something entirely different than religously-inspired celibacy, or even what Tenebris and I were musing about.

 

[ceecee]

The incel movement is something entirely different than religously-inspired celibacy, or even what Tenebris and I were musing about.

True but you would think by now the hardcore incels would try the - laying all the problems in the lap of a deity, real or imagined - method. It works great for Christians so, why not?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

True but you would think by now the hardcore incels would try the - laying all the problems in the lap of a deity, real or imagined - method. It works great for Christians so, why not?

Well, considering it started as a group of millennial(probably) Redditors, that's probably a no-go. They were probably all obsessed with Christopher Hitchens a decade ago. There's a reason you don't hear that much about religion from the alt-right (although I'm not sure if I'd place incels there, or not).

 

[ceecee]

Well, considering it started as a group of millennial(probably) Redditors, that's probably a no-go.

Actually I think a woman in the early 90's started it as a way for all genders to talk about their experiences and feelings about involuntary celibacy. Angry dudes hijacked it a couple killed some people and here we are, having to deal with these goddamn neckbeards because they are too broken to rub one out in the fucking bathroom.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Actually I think a woman in the early 90's started it as a way for all genders to talk about their experiences and feelings about involuntary celibacy. Angry dudes hijacked it a couple killed some people and here we are, having to deal with these goddamn neckbeards because they are too broken to rub one out in the fucking bathroom.

Oh, that's right. I was thinking of the modern incels that stemmed from the banned r/incels.

 

[Maou]

I think some people can likely be happy and content with celibacy, but there are others where, no, that energy cannot be transformed into passion for work and study. It just becomes a source of discontent, distraction, disappointment, depression, and takes away from those other nonsexual aspects of life because there's a constant need that is not being fulfilled.

I agree, I just wanted to point out that aspect as it wasn't mentioned. One size does not fit all, and everyone has different needs.

 

[rav3n]

As a generality, what people don't have, no matter how petty or large, often gets obsessed about and becomes the most important thing in their lives. It's the focus on the negative, rather than appreciating what they have. My impression of incels is that they're a glass all empty type.

 

[Deprecator]

Nope. "Thot". Or "you should be grateful for that".

I've always felt that expecting other people to act the way that you want them to is often a recipe for unhappiness. Maybe it's a sign that we should be more selective with who we interact with, and maybe that's also what therapists/ support groups are for; we're literally paying them to acknowledge and empathize with a negative experience and offer the 'proper' response that we're looking for.

Never seen anybody praise a woman about that

Really? I've found that victim glorification is actually quite common, and feel it's led rise to the very real phenomenon of victimhood culture. For an example with this story here, literally the first comment says: "Kudos to Marie for her bravery".

The theory doesn't seem all that far-fetched to me: "Because victimhood culture now confers the highest moral status on victims, Campbell and Manning argue that it “increases the incentive to publicize grievances.” Injured and offended parties who might once have thrown a punch or filed a law suit, now appeal for support on social media."

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I've always felt that expecting other people to act the way that you want them to is often a recipe for unhappiness.

Well, gee, couldn't it be said that expecting things in general is a recipe for unhappiness?

 

[Sacrophagus]

Incels in the making.