I have a fear of having a son.

[Codex]

This is probably one of the most genuine threads I've ever started. It's very important to me to discuss this, and I never thought about any of this before until the talk of "kids" started.

Let me start off by saying that when the time comes(not any time soon!), I plan on raising my kids as gender neutral as possible without being an utter annoyance to everyone around me, as i understand I cannot force my lifestyle and choices on others. I recognize that this is not how everyone wants to raise their kids.

I am not used to this sort of "idea". This is totally new to me and I consider myself still quite ignorant when it comes to gender/sex issues, esp when it comes to parent-child dynamics, but i am trying to learn and remove biases that I have subconsciously picked up over time.

This is quite a complicated topic but i'll try to condense as much as I can, and hopefully I won't end up just deleting this before posting like I usually do with serious topics lol.

My culture, like many, treat men differently from women. Growing up, I saw the preference and privilege play out. Small things("girls can't do that, they're not smart/strong enough!"), big things(a man being selected for a job over a women, rampant sexual harassment, not making as much money for the same job, and so on). The small things overtime are just as frustrating as the big things, and its day to day, and constant.

I grew up determined to be an exception to how women should behave because I was constantly told not to do something because it wasn't "feminine", and although I am considered "quite girly" in the traditional sense, it is simply because I like things(ex:makeup, jewelry, fashion) socially labeled as things that "women" should only like. It was a constant battle of "Why is he allowed to and I'm not?" , "if he can do it, so can i!", which resulted in a very competitive nature.
I realize that men also face similar issues(boys shouldn't cry, make more money, don't wear pink, so on), but it is extremely difficult for me to reconcile that fact with my personal experiences.

I don't dislike men, I dislike modern patriarchy( a word i never thought i'd use seriously), and the key to all of this is my younger brother("the only son"), whose personality never matured properly due to the early overbearing parenting that rotted his humanity and turned him into a misogynistic narcissist. He put us all through a lot, and his relationship with my parents is one that has heavily shaped my fear of having a son.

Lets just say, I developed a real complex about this stuff, and thus, I would like to raise my kids as unaffected by their gender as possible. I don't know if this will be easy or not, but I plan on educating myself and doing my best. This way I can ensure my future kids feel empowered, and respect and treat others equally regardless of their gender.

Now, this is all hunky dory before the thought " What if it's not a girl..." came to my mind. Ridiculous i didn't think about this before, i know. That's when i realized how big of a hypocrite i was being, and the fear i had before diminished and a new more serious fear set in:

What if I subconsciously treat my son differently?

It makes me sick with anger; I recognize my hypocrisy and that this thought contradicts the whole point of wanting to raise my kids gender neural, and also proves to me that i have a lot of work to do on my own mindset on gender before I am ready to be a parent. I have been trapped by the social handcuffs my gender has unfairly earned, and have developed my own negative biases towards men as a result; a thought that I did not even accept when it first occurred to me. I felt angry that I had let others negatively shape me so much without realizing it, and ashamed of myself, as that mindset sustains the cycle that I loathe.

How the hell do you combat this without seeing a therapist. I thought about seeing a therapist, but atm, I am working through this on my own/with my very supportive and understanding husband.

I am reassured with the love and respect I feel for my nephew and nieces. They're equal in my eyes, and I get very upset when i see my niece or nephew treated differently.

TLDR: Wants to raise kids gender neutral. Hates the idea of "Men". Might treat son bad by accident. Realizes shes a hypocrite perpetuating the cycle.

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

Oh, I hypothetical child is different than an actual child or at least it was for me. A person who seems very logical, like you, might find that you have a greater capacity to love a child than you thought possible. I know that sounds cliche, but I just think some people aren't so detached from their children as they thought they'd be.

And some of the idealism might diminish too. It's just an upstream battle against societal expectations. I still try to get back to what my original plans were, but it's hard and impractical. The good thing going for idealistic people like you is that you have a plan. You know what you want your kid to be in advance and that helps in creating decent human beings.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Treat them like an individual, not like a "boy" or a "girl". Raise them to be compassionate and sensitive to others' feelings but not overly sensitive--it's a fine balance. Encourage them to put themselves in others' shoes before rushing to judgments and to know as many of the facts as possible before making assumptions. Raise them to be independent, but also to know there's no shame in asking for help when they genuinely need it.

Beware Gottman's 4 horsemen--I know those are for romantic relationships but I think they can apply to parent-child relationships as well.

they are:

-Criticism
-Contempt
-Defensiveness
-Stonewalling

I think a lot of resentment kids hold toward parents (and vice versa) can be attributed to those 4 modes of expression and they are conducive to a breakdown in communication. A lot of people think it's a given that parents and kids will be at odds by the time of the teen years, but it's amazing how healthy these relationships can be when people make an effort to avoid the above 4 methods of communication. Contempt is said to be one of the greatest predictors of divorce; I think in the case of parenting it can contribute to kids rebelling in unhealthy ways, avoiding healthy relationships with their parents upon reaching adulthood, and worse, can lead them into unhealthy relationships when they start dating or get married, as they're more likely to pick these modes of communication up and see them as "normal" in their interactions with other people.

I know this is all easier said than done. The fact you actually care about this sort of stuff means you'll probably do fine as a parent when the time comes.

 

[rav3n]

Codex, rather than gender neutral since there's a controlling aspect to this, raise your son as an ethical individual who's not an extension of you hence has agency, neither praising or trashing any gender. If he has a preference for dolls (most boys already play with dolls but they're called action figures), let him play with them. If he has a preference for football, let him play. For that matter, expose him to as many potential hobbies and sports as possible and let him decide what he prefers.

IMO, you'll be a great mother.

 

[Coriolis]

What if I subconsciously treat my son differently?

It makes me sick with anger; I recognize my hypocrisy and that this thought contradicts the whole point of wanting to raise my kids gender neural, and also proves to me that i have a lot of work to do on my own mindset on gender before I am ready to be a parent. I have been trapped by the social handcuffs my gender has unfairly earned, and have developed my own negative biases towards men as a result; a thought that I did not even accept when it first occurred to me. I felt angry that I had let others negatively shape me so much without realizing it, and ashamed of myself, as that mindset sustains the cycle that I loathe.

How the hell do you combat this without seeing a therapist. I thought about seeing a therapist, but atm, I am working through this on my own/with my very supportive and understanding husband.

I am reassured with the love and respect I feel for my nephew and nieces. They're equal in my eyes, and I get very upset when i see my niece or nephew treated differently.

TLDR: Wants to raise kids gender neutral. Hates the idea of "Men". Might treat son bad by accident. Realizes shes a hypocrite perpetuating the cycle.

I think you are too mindful of the issues involved here to be a hypocrite. In fact, your depth of consideration suggests you would be just the right sort of person to raise a son, because you are aware of the pitfalls of falling into the old stereotypes. Yes, we all have gender-based baggage, even the most egalitarian of us, simply as a product of our own upbringing. You probably would notice times that you treat a son (or a daughter) some way based on gender, and I don't mean something driven by physical necessity. But you will be watchful for such things, and correct them when you see them. I find a good exercise for teasing out subconscious bias is to switch genders. So, if you do have a son and you are making a decision about how to treat him, or how to respond to him, ask: if he were a girl, would I do the same?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I think just the fact that you are worrying that you won't stay true to your principles is an encouraging sign that your fears are unjustified. Perfection is difficult to achieve, and I'm sure parenting is no different, but if you strive to do the best you can, I think that's impressive.

 

[Population: 1]

Concentrate on raising a good human being. Lead by example. If your actions contradict your words they will remember the former and not the latter.

 

[cacaia]

My pre- kid thoughts resonate a lot with yours. I also grew up in a gender divided society, and I also rebelled because it just didn't make sense to me that boys and boys only could play soccer, and girls had to play with Barbie's and wear pink because they were girls.During my early adult years, I was very cynical toward men and thought I would never have kids because of such an ignorant world full of gender bias we live in...but toward my mid twenties, my biological clock started ticking and substituting in a kindergarten class just did it in for me. I had constant fears of raising my kids gender free and making sure I armed them for the unfairness of the world.
This is what I learned....
1) you and your husband call the shots. The kids you raise will look to you for guidance mainly. This means you can explain things to them and be honest about your family's views and your views. Ask them what they think about these differing ideologies.
2) Each kid is different. They will, at one point or another, come to their own conclusions about things. However, they'll be influenced by you and your husband the most. Show them as many points of view as you can, and then reel them in by explaining how you feel boys should, for example, wear pink ( did you know pink is a variant of red? Pink used to be worn by warriors and men in many parts of the world...by daVinci himself!) If they wanted to.
3) these fears are normal, but have faith in yourself. Give yourself a chance. You will be fine.
Just to make you smile: my boy is getting his nails done by my daughter as we speak! His favorite color? Pink.

 

[anticlimatic]

My girlfriend has the exact same fear, and has the same kind of progressive worldview. She thinks if she has a son she wouldn't love it.

 

[Mask Off]

You're saying you want your kid to be raised as gender neutral as possible. For that you need to be unbiased and raise a good child. Unfortunately you are very biased and your judgement is clouded, I don't know if you are ready to have a kid, even if it's a girl.

 

[Smilephantomhive]

If you have a son, let your husband do most of the raising.

 

[Agent Washington]

People who are truly toxic when it comes to gender roles usually believe that they're right, without the kind of self-reflextion you seem to have. I think you'll make a fine parent.

 

[Andy]

This is probably one of the most genuine threads I've ever started. It's very important to me to discuss this, and I never thought about any of this before until the talk of "kids" started.

Let me start off by saying that when the time comes(not any time soon!), I plan on raising my kids as gender neutral as possible without being an utter annoyance to everyone around me, as i understand I cannot force my lifestyle and choices on others. I recognize that this is not how everyone wants to raise their kids.

I am not used to this sort of "idea". This is totally new to me and I consider myself still quite ignorant when it comes to gender/sex issues, esp when it comes to parent-child dynamics, but i am trying to learn and remove biases that I have subconsciously picked up over time.

This is quite a complicated topic but i'll try to condense as much as I can, and hopefully I won't end up just deleting this before posting like I usually do with serious topics lol.

My culture, like many, treat men differently from women. Growing up, I saw the preference and privilege play out. Small things("girls can't do that, they're not smart/strong enough!"), big things(a man being selected for a job over a women, rampant sexual harassment, not making as much money for the same job, and so on). The small things overtime are just as frustrating as the big things, and its day to day, and constant.

I grew up determined to be an exception to how women should behave because I was constantly told not to do something because it wasn't "feminine", and although I am considered "quite girly" in the traditional sense, it is simply because I like things(ex:makeup, jewelry, fashion) socially labeled as things that "women" should only like. It was a constant battle of "Why is he allowed to and I'm not?" , "if he can do it, so can i!", which resulted in a very competitive nature.
I realize that men also face similar issues(boys shouldn't cry, make more money, don't wear pink, so on), but it is extremely difficult for me to reconcile that fact with my personal experiences.

I don't dislike men, I dislike modern patriarchy( a word i never thought i'd use seriously), and the key to all of this is my younger brother("the only son"), whose personality never matured properly due to the early overbearing parenting that rotted his humanity and turned him into a misogynistic narcissist. He put us all through a lot, and his relationship with my parents is one that has heavily shaped my fear of having a son.

Lets just say, I developed a real complex about this stuff, and thus, I would like to raise my kids as unaffected by their gender as possible. I don't know if this will be easy or not, but I plan on educating myself and doing my best. This way I can ensure my future kids feel empowered, and respect and treat others equally regardless of their gender.

Now, this is all hunky dory before the thought " What if it's not a girl..." came to my mind. Ridiculous i didn't think about this before, i know. That's when i realized how big of a hypocrite i was being, and the fear i had before diminished and a new more serious fear set in:

What if I subconsciously treat my son differently?

It makes me sick with anger; I recognize my hypocrisy and that this thought contradicts the whole point of wanting to raise my kids gender neural, and also proves to me that i have a lot of work to do on my own mindset on gender before I am ready to be a parent. I have been trapped by the social handcuffs my gender has unfairly earned, and have developed my own negative biases towards men as a result; a thought that I did not even accept when it first occurred to me. I felt angry that I had let others negatively shape me so much without realizing it, and ashamed of myself, as that mindset sustains the cycle that I loathe.

How the hell do you combat this without seeing a therapist. I thought about seeing a therapist, but atm, I am working through this on my own/with my very supportive and understanding husband.

I am reassured with the love and respect I feel for my nephew and nieces. They're equal in my eyes, and I get very upset when i see my niece or nephew treated differently.

TLDR: Wants to raise kids gender neutral. Hates the idea of "Men". Might treat son bad by accident. Realizes shes a hypocrite perpetuating the cycle.

I think you need to relax and stop over-thinking the issue. The more you wind yourself up worrying about this, the more likely you are to fuck things up. Don't try to force gender neutrality on your children - just let them be what comes naturally. The problems with gender stereotypes only show up in the extremes for the most part, so unless you try to force them down a particular path they are unlikely to develop anything particularly destructive. Remember, the worst behaviours in kids and teenagers tend to be in response to overbearing parents.

 

[Norrsken]

With the way science and technology are developing these days, someday you may be able to choose which sex your child will come out as.
It's okay if you only want to raise daughters.

 

[Red Memories]

actually you sound like you'd be a fantastic parent. Not every parent is so self aware. Kudos to you period.

 

[Obfuscate]

I think you need to relax and stop over-thinking the issue. The more you wind yourself up worrying about this, the more likely you are to fuck things up. Don't try to force gender neutrality on your children - just let them be what comes naturally. The problems with gender stereotypes only show up in the extremes for the most part, so unless you try to force them down a particular path they are unlikely to develop anything particularly destructive. Remember, the worst behaviours in kids and teenagers tend to be in response to overbearing parents.

this is pretty close to what i think...

 

[1487610420]

Is it really about gender or just becoming a parent in itself

 

[Tater]

[MENTION=21890]Codex[/MENTION] what you need to do is become the baby-making machine GOD intended you to be.

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

My girlfriend has the exact same fear, and has the same kind of progressive worldview. She thinks if she has a son she wouldn't love it.

Mother Nature takes care of some of this when it is allowed to do its job. The more that comes between a mother and her baby (such as medical intervention, bottle feeding, early childcare), the more difficult it is for the mother and baby to bond.

Those sorts of things may also lead to developmental delays. I know this one couple and they are super smart. I expected their child to just naturally be smart too. He is 9 months older than my daughter, and can't do anything as well as her (except maybe tantrums and being unpleasant). His parents keep saying our girl is advanced. I'm pretty sure their boy is just way behind, due to the medically unnecessary c-section at 38 weeks, the bottle feeding, and dropping him off at daycare at the age of 3 months. But there is no genetic reason for this or anything wrong with him when he was born.

As far as I can tell, they didn't have a vision for him the way Codex does, nor were they thinking about problems and how to combat them. These two took for granted the way they were raised, and didn't consider how important this stuff is.

 

[Red Herring]

Quite a few good replies already in here

I have two daughters and had some similar thoughts before each of them (the second time more than te first, maybe).

As others have said, bonding will naturally occur within the first few days and weeks through breastfeeding, lots of cuddling/physical contact and time spent with the child. In my personal experience it is practically instant with the mother those reasons and grows for the father the more involved he is and the more the child becomes a person with their own personality, the more it is a recognizable individual.

As for gender stereotypes: They are fucking everywhere and having daughters has made me even more furious about them than before becoming a parent. You can't shield your kid from the media and other kids, only give them the selfconfidence to do their own thing. My oldest daughter is 4 1/2 right now and her favorite colors are pink and purple. She loves flamingos and unicorns and the external influence in that is quite visible (kindergarden and youtube videos). However, she also hab an extensive tiger phase. She is physically very active and selfconfident (good climber, etc), has a knack for numbers and a strong interest in nature. She plays with neither dolls nor cars but animals, lots of animals. We usually think of her as half fairy princess half lumberjack or pirate. So far her little sister seems to develop in a similar way. Pink is not an evil color and she gets it sometimes, but we avoid dressing or surrounding her in too much of the stuff at once. It's all about striking a balance.

You can probably apply a lot of that to a son.

You mentioned a supportive partner. That is extremely valuable. Kids copy what they see more than what they are told and your relationship works as a model. Your son will see how his dad treats his mum and learn from that. He'll see mutual respect. He'll see shared domestic tasks and learn from that, etc.