How to agonize people

[SolitaryWalker]

I don't have to make my actions appear congenial because most of the time they are. If you weren't so afraid of your own emotions you'd recognize that.

That may be true. But again..why did you say that you can make people do whatever you want them to do without my 'stupid games'...

(I am not taking shots at your integrity, I am just saying that I noticed two statements which lead to implications that are difficult to reconcile with one another)

Moreover, did you intentionally use this phraseology "I dont have to make my ACTIONS appear congenial, they always are"...I am not talking about actions.. I am talking about motives..the actions of the Pharisees were congenial, no doubt they did good deeds, but their motives were rotten..and they could pass their motives off as sincere by making their actions congenial, albeit their motives never were.

 

[proteanmix]

Oh no..please continue..tell me more about how you use your Fe to get from people what you want (I want to learn about this purely on the theoretical level, I am not interested in applying it), and moreover manage to prevent them from seeing that you're using/manipulating them by making your motives appear congenial.

I'm very much interested in this topic and how ENFs could pull it off so well most of the time that others are still under the delusion that they are being sincere.

I don't have to make my actions appear congenial because most of the time they are. If you weren't so afraid of your own emotions you'd recognize that.

You started with the mistaken premise that ENFs are out to make you do something against your will, mean you harm, or have malevolent intentions. Most of the time that isn't true although I won't say that may not be the case with some ENFs. You also said "appear congenial" as if this was some cloak and dagger espionage going. You're approaching the situation all wrong. If you're looking for bad you will find something. You're already suspicious of ENF intentions and motivations so anything that seems to confirm your worldview (like my statement above) just adds fuel to the fire.

 

[substitute]

I just meant toy around with their inferior Si..I have an older ENTP friend who is in his 40s and to this day he hates how they made him memorize facts by route in school...then you've got construe their lack of S skills in a way that would undermine their confidence in their competence overall.

Yeah... though actually my ENFP brother does this better than anyone - undermining my self-confidence, I mean. I don't see him very often, and when I do it's usually when we're forced to work together over some family crisis or other, and then we're just together too much and get on each other's nerves. But he constantly throws doubt on my ability with people - I know that I'm a pretty damn good people person, and I get on well with almost anyone and can be very persuasive and charming. But when he's around it's like, y'know, I just have to move aside and allow the pro to do the job, and he's forever pointing out how I should've said this or whatever... and I suddenly go all INTP and tense, my people skills disappear... it sucks man!!

I'm actually quite at peace with my Si these days... it's my Fi that's probably even worse than Si nowadays. I can easily get bamboozled on the Feeling plane by people persuading me of what I 'feel', when I've actually no idea.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Indeed it will add fuel to my fire, it will make my prejudices more intensely negative, it will obviously influence the way I feel about them. But thats not what I go by when I make decisions, and obviously will not be what I accept as the truth.

Only what is supported with sound reasoning, to my mind, you should accept as the truth. Not what you feel is right, not your knee-jerk reactions, but only what you can justify with logical argument.

I dont think that insincerity of motives is very common among ENFs, (as strong feeling types they tend to value their ability to relate to eople on a deeply personal level very highly and are often hurt when others suggest that they are insincere, because their sincerity is perhaps their strongest driving force)

Though I would say ,however, the few ENFs who lack integrity tend to be very good at manipulating people into doing their bidding..and I certainly would like to learn more about their technique..or in other words..how the ENF mechanism works in such situations..that is a purely theoretical inquiry and purports to make no statement about ENFs in general or even less about this or that specific ENF individual or group.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Yeah... though actually my ENFP brother does this better than anyone - undermining my self-confidence, I mean. I don't see him very often, and when I do it's usually when we're forced to work together over some family crisis or other, and then we're just together too much and get on each other's nerves. But he constantly throws doubt on my ability with people - I know that I'm a pretty damn good people person, and I get on well with almost anyone and can be very persuasive and charming. But when he's around it's like, y'know, I just have to move aside and allow the pro to do the job, and he's forever pointing out how I should've said this or whatever... and I suddenly go all INTP and tense, my people skills disappear... it sucks man!!

I'm actually quite at peace with my Si these days... it's my Fi that's probably even worse than Si nowadays. I can easily get bamboozled on the Feeling plane by people persuading me of what I 'feel', when I've actually no idea.

I wouldnt even worry about that. Sensing and Feeling arent your natural strengths so it would be wise to accept your lack of competence in those areas..I know its probably something that I should do as well..but I just cant because the dominant T demand for competence is too strong...

Perhaps you're more troubled by F problems than S problems because your F is stronger than your S and hence if you have a choice between an S environment and F environment, you'd go for the latter, but again, more than likely bite off more than you could chew because you've overestimated your competence as most NTs tend to..

 

[substitute]

I wouldnt even worry about that. Sensing and Feeling arent your natural strengths so it would be wise to accept your lack of competence in those areas..

Yeah I know... I don't have any trouble accepting the things I'm just predisposed to be crap at, but what bugs me is when there's something I KNOW I'm usually good at, but all of a sudden the skill has deserted me because someone has managed to evapourate the confidence that's necessary for me to actually use them!

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Yeah I know... I don't have any trouble accepting the things I'm just predisposed to be crap at, but what bugs me is when there's something I KNOW I'm usually good at, but all of a sudden the skill has deserted me because someone has managed to evapourate the confidence that's necessary for me to actually use them!

I think this probably suggest that you lack confidence in your ability to handle that skill well. Otherwise such a minor disturbance wouldnt suffice to turn your whole performance upside down.

Dont be thinking it only goes one way..imagine how NFs ought to feel after they've done much study and convinced themselves that they are great at handling abstract concepts..and suddenly..wham..an NTP heads their way and they start questioning themselves again more than ever...

This is why Fs tend to have lower confidence in themselves than Ts--because in life you're confronted with more situations where you'd be forced to make impersonal judgments (T), rather than personal (F), albeit Ts suffer the same losses that Fs do in everyday life when they have no choice but to make decisions in their non-preferred way.

 

[Athenian200]

I have something to say about this. I carefully read the discussion between BlueWing and Brendan, and it seems to me like they were having a calm discussion about this topic, and were not mudslinging or anything.

However, proteanmix, I would note that your first comment on this topic questioned whether or not it was valid, and that when you interjected to stop whatever it was that bothered you, you cursed (I also note that neither of the people you accused cursed at all). If anything, I would say that your comments were more antagonistic and hateful than BlueWing's or anyone else's. He did make some rather cutting remarks your way after this, but I believe that you provoked them.

Also, I don't believe BlueWing had any intention of using these things to actually agonize (or antagonize) someone. I think he was simply trying to evaluate how types can be undone by their inferior and/or shadow functions in a very roundabout way, so that it could be evaluated outside of the normal perspective, revealing things we would normally miss looking at it in that way.

cafe, yes, her being a moderator makes a disagreement her business. But I don't believe that BlueWing did anything wrong. I also know it's not my place to say such a thing, and I'm willing to accept judgment for what I believe in this case.

 

[substitute]

I think this probably suggest that you lack confidence in your ability to handle that skill well. Otherwise such a minor disturbance wouldnt suffice to turn your whole performance upside down.

Yeah exactly... well, no I did spend the majority of my life without any skills in that area and I've developed them over recent years, but I've had enough honest feedback to know that I've done a good job of it, and I'm constantly called a 'people person'. It's happened when I've tried to empathise with people who complain about lack of people skills, that they've scoffed at me and said "Huh, as if YOU would know how it feels to be crap with people!" and they just don't believe me when I say how bad I used to be, and how hard it's been to learn what I have.

I think it's because my brother interacts with me as the person I was when he last knew me properly, when we last used to spend time together outside of emergency situations. Perhaps with Ne as my dominant, I naturally flex and adapt to the person I'm interacting with, and the history between him and me, you know, like when he talks to me as a certain person, somehow it makes me become that person again. I'm sorta onto him though now, and he's not doing it as much. I think the solution is for us to get to know each other again now, as we are, though it's hard because we both bring out sides of ourselves that are, to all intents and purposes, historic! So it's hard for us to see each other as we normally are in the present.

 

[Totenkindly]

How she feels about it does not have any weight. It can only be construed as her business if he can show how it violates forum policy.

Just a small nuance, here, BW. I'm not sure if technically you are breaking forum policy (although I'm sure if we worked, we could find SOMETHING that would stick to you when it got thrown at you).

But let me take a bit of a different tactic, because I see it as relevant. This is not a juvenile hall, and your motivation is not supposed to be, "What can I get away with?" We're adults, aren't we? With a shared goal of having a pleasant, decent forum?

So, if you look at what you and Brendan are doing and can acknowledge the extent to which you have taken it as being disruptive to the thread and potentially to the bulk of posters, I would think that both of you (if you were productive members of MBTIc) could simply say, "OKay, fun was fun; this is being disruptive now and pissing off many people; and so I think I'll just stop."

We mods shouldn't HAVE to be trying to punish you, to get you to consider other people besides yourself. Mature adults are usually working together to build a positive environment, not being forced to comply just to prevent things from going downhill.

Seriously, think about that a bit. Personally, your little tiffs with Brendan do not bother me a ton, but I think the attitude shift from "What can I get away with?" to "What can I do that is productive here?" would benefit everyone.

UGGHHH. Now, I do have to admit: Having to waste five minutes to spell all that out was AGONIZING. I guess your title was apropos after all!

I have something to say about this. I carefully read the discussion between BlueWing and Brendan, and it seems to me like they were having a calm discussion about this topic, and were not mudslinging or anything.

Oh, they actually were mostly screwing around, tongue-in-cheek. How do I know that? Because I have watched them fight before, on INTPc mostly, and when they were serious, it was FAR uglier than this, and just like watching a 50-car-pileup at a train crossing in a hailstorm during a meteor strike.

But let me tell you, we have three children, and two of them fight like this (bickering back and forth) incessantly, and after days and weeks and months of hearing from them, it almost doesn't matter whether they are kidding or NOT when they start squabbling -- it just pisses us off royally almost as soon as it starts. This is not really a choice, we only get to choose how to respond. But really, it wears your tolerance very very VERY thin once you have been exposed to that sort of irritation long-term.

And this is rather why some people seem on a short fuse with BW and Brendan. You wouldn't know, as you haven't know them that long. So that was just a little history lesson.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Yeah exactly... well, no I did spend the majority of my life without any skills in that area and I've developed them over recent years, but I've had enough honest feedback to know that I've done a good job of it, and I'm constantly called a 'people person'. It's happened when I've tried to empathise with people who complain about lack of people skills, that they've scoffed at me and said "Huh, as if YOU would know how it feels to be crap with people!" and they just don't believe me when I say how bad I used to be, and how hard it's been to learn what I have.

Definitely can relate to parts of what you said. ENTPs that I know often try to coach me on people skills, but often I cant help but scoff at them because they dont seem to be far ahead of me.

I see very clearly how ENTPs could be 'people people', but again, this isnt their natural strength. (They may seem very smooth because they see the big picture clearly and interact with it (Ne keeps their focus on it, and is by its nature interactive), and when they extrovert, the Ne is chained to the Fe)

Though the ostensible problem here is that ENTPs' feeling function is low (third) and they do not have the natural sensitivity that the feeling oriented types tend to. They tend to make better 'people people' than INTPs because they are more in tune with the F, and Ne is more adaptable than Ti, but they ought not to attempt to keep up with the Fs in such activities, thats not what they were 'built' for. As again, people skills come from 'F' resources and the ENTPs seem to be in tune with them more than they actually are because it lines up on the Extroverted plane well with their dominant function and Intuition is also a supporting factor in this regard (as it allows for them to make more observations that they could apply F judgments to)--this is why ENTPs tend to be more tactful than ESTPs.

I think it's because my brother interacts with me as the person I was when he last knew me properly, when we last used to spend time together outside of emergency situations. Perhaps with Ne as my dominant, I naturally flex and adapt to the person I'm interacting with, and the history between him and me, you know, like when he talks to me as a certain person, somehow it makes me become that person again. I'm sorta onto him though now, and he's not doing it as much. I think the solution is for us to get to know each other again now, as we are, though it's hard because we both bring out sides of ourselves that are, to all intents and purposes, historic! So it's hard for us to see each other as we normally are in the present.

I think at this point its best that you become more 'INTPish" stop competing with your brother and judge your competence only by an internal standard. You may still chose to cultivate your F, but this time, instead of having the standard be contingent on his whims, you could select a more appropriate one, one that is less likely to blemish your self-confidence. And I dont mean this in a pejorative fashion--just imagine if he studied science, philosophy, linguistics, whatever T oriented intellectual enterprise that you excell at, developed considerable skill--and then was forced to match you up?

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Just a small nuance, here, BW. I'm not sure if technically you are breaking forum policy (although I'm sure if we worked, we could find SOMETHING that would stick to you when it got thrown at you).

But let me take a bit of a different tactic, because I see it as relevant. This is not a juvenile hall, and your motivation is not supposed to be, "What can I get away with?" We're adults, aren't we? With a shared goal of having a pleasant, decent forum?

Our discussion with Brendan and I did not break the forum policy. That was my point.

We were not thinking about how we could circumvent it either, we were just minding our own business in that conversation...

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Oh, they actually were mostly screwing around, tongue-in-cheek. How do I know that? Because I have watched them fight before, on INTPc mostly, and when they were serious, it was FAR uglier than this, and just like watching a 50-car-pileup at a train crossing in a hailstorm during a meteor strike.

But let me tell you, we have three children, and two of them fight like this (bickering back and forth) incessantly, and after days and weeks and months of hearing from them, it almost doesn't matter whether they are kidding or NOT when they start squabbling -- it just pisses us off royally almost as soon as it starts. This is not really a choice, we only get to choose how to respond. But really, it wears your tolerance very very VERY thin once you have been exposed to that sort of irritation long-term.

And this is rather why some people seem on a short fuse with BW and Brendan. You wouldn't know, as you haven't know them that long. So that was just a little history lesson.

You're still not getting it..this conversation wasnt like the ones we had in the past...thats the point I made earlier on...

 

[substitute]

Yes, both of us have Ne as dominant so we both flex against each other, but because neither of us are really being our normal selves, we're essentially flexing against nothing, or a decoy perhaps, then being surprised when we both end up hideously miscommunicating.

It is getting better though. A few months ago I could only bear a day or so with him, whilst now it's three or four days before I start chanting "will you just fuck off home?" to myself!

I think he finds it irksome that yes, I am tangibly better than him at many of the things that he in fact got me into when we were kids, like playing guitar, humanities, and all that stuff. We had a chat once where he even admitted that when we were teenagers, he used to feel jealous that I was smarter than him at school stuff, and consoled himself by the knowledge that he was better with people, and that once he saw that actually I'm good with people now as well, it made him feel like he just had to find something he was better than me at and show me it, in his own half-arsed, roundabout way.

No, my response isn't to compete any more, I've come out of that stage. I just take a deep breath before responding to anything he does or says, and then just make sure I be myself all the time, that I'm behaving as I normally would - laid back and humorous "but with potential menace beneath, not showing teeth but implying that you have them" (as someone said of me).

And I've been surprised constantly at how easily pleased he is by me pretending to be interested in his little obsessions. Just asking him how the F1 race went this morning and telling him what kind of car I want (he likes cars and I'm supremely disinterested in them) seems to make him think I'm his new best friend!!!

And it seems I missed the whole BW and Brendan thing while I was AWOL... not surprising I figure. Hehehe... am I the only one here who likes them both?

 

[SolitaryWalker]

And I've been surprised constantly at how easily pleased he is by me pretending to be interested in his little obsessions. Just asking him how the F1 race went this morning and telling him what kind of car I want (he likes cars and I'm supremely disinterested in them) seems to make him think I'm his new best friend!!!

And it seems I missed the whole BW and Brendan thing while I was AWOL... not surprising I figure. Hehehe... am I the only one here who likes them both?

NFs tend to be over-dramatic and exaggerate the positive sentiments while attempting to shirk the negatives, they gravitate towards positivity simply because it makes them feel better..(This is why NFPs tend to romanticize people and have an idealistic view of life, they cant handle negative feelings because they are just too acutely in tune with them and their soundness depends almost entirely on the kind of feelings they entertain, thats why wishful thinking is actually good for them. They'd be miserable otherwise. Much like NTs are what they think (especially INTPs) and NFs are what they feel, regardless of whether or not what they feel has any correspondence to reality (figuring out the real world is the business of Ts), and hence this is why you just dont want to be taking the rose colored glasses of the INFP, you'd be doing them untold harm. )

 

[substitute]

Well we've found what works for us is if I give him all the 'salesman' type jobs, where he has to use his superior persuasion skills, while I take care of the logistic side of things. I'm not overly fond of this myself, though planning is something I enjoy, taking care of the details isn't! But I'm better at doing it than him cos he's apt to just say "fuck it" for no reason, on a whim, and not bother going through with some arrangement that we could've got thousands of pounds out of, because he just felt like an extra half hour in bed, or because he wanted to watch the Grand Prix on a Sunday morning rather than deliver a package to somebody. He's the very last person I'd ever choose as a business partner cos he's TOTALLY unreliable and puts his personal convenience and comfort above all else. If he'd stick to the field in which he excels all other - salesmanship - and left all the logistics to me, I'd be happy. But he doesn't - because he won't admit to his shortcomings, and he has to always be 'right'. Hell will freeze over before he apologizes to me or anyone or admits that anything he ever did (out loud) was wrong. So I just have to put up with everyone raving to me about what a 'lovely chap' he is, and accept the image of the grouchy, barking-orders type brother that's 'not as friendly' as the other one, even though I'm the one without whom none of the things they're so grateful for would've actually materialised! Grrrr!

How am I doing by the way, any ENFP's out there? Antagonising you yet?

 

[SolitaryWalker]

How am I doing by the way, any ENFP's out there? Antagonising you yet?

Even though on the surface ENFPs may seem like the type to have difficulty admitting their own faults (because they have to preserve an image), internally they are keenly aware of them. And they are afraid of seeing other people become aware of their short-comings because they depend on their approval too much and intensely fear them not liking them anymore since they now know of their faults. In your case, where you know of all his faults and he may not be afraid that you will discover of his faults and cease to like him because of that. In this particular situation, I suspect, he wont vocally own up to those faults because he equates having negative things said about him as an attack on his character.



Yes ENFPs are very flaky and unreliable, and their feely side makes it difficult for them to be tough-minded. Both of your are inferior Si, yet you have an easier time forcing yourself through those unpleasant tasks because the Ti makes you very tough-minded, whilst he'd need to reach down to the Te to accomplish the same, which is very difficult indeed. Maybe if he had a lot of approval on the job and it somehow tied to his sympathies (I'm sure this would be easy for him to do with the dominant Ne), he'd carry through with them, but unlike a T its difficult for him to be self-determined.

No doubt ENFPs tend to be flaky and unreliable, but perhaps its not the case that they'd circumvent the need to do chores only in favor of making themselves comfortable, but rather because they simply have difficulty finding motivation to do those chores, because they need T energy for that, which they tend to lack. Given enough F energy--emotional reassurance and personal values, they'd almost doubtlessly manage it. Perhaps even he'd carry through with those chores if he'd know for sure that you'd earnestly appreciate it all, or it will please a lot of other people quite a bit..

 

[proteanmix]

I have something to say about this. I carefully read the discussion between BlueWing and Brendan, and it seems to me like they were having a calm discussion about this topic, and were not mudslinging or anything.

However, proteanmix, I would note that your first comment on this topic questioned whether or not it was valid, and that when you interjected to stop whatever it was that bothered you, you cursed (I also note that neither of the people you accused cursed at all). If anything, I would say that your comments were more antagonistic and hateful than BlueWing's or anyone else's. He did make some rather cutting remarks your way after this, but I believe that you provoked them.

Also, I don't believe BlueWing had any intention of using these things to actually agonize (or antagonize) someone. I think he was simply trying to evaluate how types can be undone by their inferior and/or shadow functions in a very roundabout way, so that it could be evaluated outside of the normal perspective, revealing things we would normally miss looking at it in that way.

cafe, yes, her being a moderator makes a disagreement her business. But I don't believe that BlueWing did anything wrong. I also know it's not my place to say such a thing, and I'm willing to accept judgment for what I believe in this case.

Brendan and BlueWing have a history of bickering with each other that you may not know about. Should I ignore their history assume that this wasn't going to be the same?

If BlueWing wants to antagonize people with this list it's his business. I don't have a problem with his findings. I still don't understand why anyone would sit and try to figure out ways to anger other people. If this is how he wants to spend his time then that's on him.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I still don't understand why anyone would sit and try to figure out ways to anger other people. If this is how he wants to spend his time then that's on him.

I thought I already told you. It had nothing to do with angering people, the thought-experiment was entirely theoretical.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

LOL this thread is layered with irony. It's like people are following the recommendations of the first post.

I still don't understand why anyone would sit and try to figure out ways to anger other people.

If you know what agonizes another person, then you can make a conscious effort to stop doing it. It can help everyone reading to be more respectful toward one another.