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How can a INFJ permanently loop Ni-Ti without Fe butting in or becoming unhealthy?

Amargith

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^ im referring to mbti theory now, and using those definitions.

I found myself that developing my Fi gave me the tools to somewhat safely unleash my dom and my tertiary onto the world - in particular my tertiary. Until i figured out my aux, i kept my Te chained up in the basement :ninja:
 

Peter Deadpan

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Functions are about actions. I'm going to oversimplify to get my point across, but people make decisions either based on ethics or logic.

Fe/Fi = ethics
Te/Ti = logic

The introverted side of thinking and feeling (Ti or Fi) are based on thorough internal independent analysis. They are very sophisticated and personal to the subject, therefore they are subjective. Example: Fi user determines ethics independently and isn't easily swayed by outside influences. Ti user determines logic (facts) independently and isn't easily swayed by outside influences. BOTH consider external influences, but ultimately subjectively have the final say and are willing to be the lone person with a perspective in a group.

The Fe/Te side is influenced by external factors. For Fe, their ethics are influenced by the group and they are willing to bend a bit if it keeps harmony in tact within the group. Te respects systems and values what is measurable as fact or useful (think the scientific method or following the function descriptions as close as possible without debating possible interpretations - less "wiggle room" than Ti). Te likes efficiency and order and action.

Also, because the introverted functions are so personal and important, it tends to take people longer to make a decision using these. The extroverted functions are usually more rapid as there is less internal analysis or "checking in" that needs to be done.

Fi DOES NOT mean "less emotional" and Fe doesn't mean social!

Users of different functions can come to the same decision and it could be difficult from the outside to identify which method was used to get there.

Unhealthy individuals are not easily typed and this is quite common. Mistyping is common as well due to people not properly understanding the functions.
 

Z Buck McFate

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Fe/Fi = ethics
Te/Ti = logic

The introverted side of thinking and feeling (Ti or Fi) are based on thorough internal independent analysis. They are very sophisticated and personal to the subject, therefore they are subjective. Example: Fi user determines ethics independently and isn't easily swayed by outside influences. Ti user determines logic (facts) independently and isn't easily swayed by outside influences. BOTH consider external influences, but ultimately subjectively have the final say and are willing to be the lone person with a perspective in a group.

The Fe/Te side is influenced by external factors. For Fe, their ethics are influenced by the group and they are willing to bend a bit if it keeps harmony in tact within the group. Te respects systems and values what is measurable as fact or useful (think the scientific method or following the function descriptions as close as possible without debating possible interpretations - less "wiggle room" than Ti). Te likes efficiency and order and action.

Also, because the introverted functions are so personal and important, it tends to take people longer to make a decision using these. The extroverted functions are usually more rapid as there is less internal analysis or "checking in" that needs to be done.



Leaving aside the problem that this description isn't something I personally can't get on board with: *if* the premise that IxFJs should 'use more Fe' to get out of introverting too much is to be believed then, by deduction, an INFJ who is sorta "NiTi looping"/caught on something should inculcate external ethics into their internal framework at a faster pace (or something)?

"NiTi looping" happens because there's something going on in the external world that an INFJ can't get on board with in the first place. While INFJs do often try to force themselves to put their own objections/complaints on hold until they can effectively articulate why something is a bad idea (hoping some argument will slide into focus that will get others on board with their objections/complaints) - which is precisely the stuff "NiTi looping" is made of, 'bending' as a sort of placeholder while they wait for their objections to become clear enough to articulate - the way out of that definitely, definitely isn't more bending.

[And more re: op]

While I think one of the ways any kind of external influence can help with the "NiTi looping" is for someone who is capable of listening really well *and* who understands provides a medium for the INFJ to put their thoughts/impressions into language, so that they can finally let go of the information that's caught on 'repeat' in their head. But people who are capable of listening well and/or who understand are actually quite difficult to find, *and* I suspect there isn't a fussier bunch of people in this world than INFJs when it comes to needing both those qualities. Bouncing the looping ideas/impressions off someone whose reaction will only add to the information that's stuck bouncing around inside - instead of providing a neutral sounding board that helps get rid of that internal confusion - is the worst. It's seriously the worst. Especially when I was younger, I'd internalize the fault whenever this happened, thinking, "what's wrong with me, that this person's advice/help doesn't work for me?" At this point I think I see it more for what it is (no one's fault, just a really fussy operating system) and steer clear of/maintain emotional distance to people who systematically make 'looping' worse.

And sometimes even someone who is capable of listening really well can't 'get through' - because ultimately the problem is more about (as lexicon mentioned) getting to understand oneself better, cultivating an awareness of one's needs and cultivating a firm sense of boundaries.
 

Vivienne.Iris

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Leaving aside the problem that this description isn't something I personally can't get on board with: *if* the premise that IxFJs should 'use more Fe' to get out of introverting too much is to be believed then, by deduction, an INFJ who is sorta "NiTi looping"/caught on something should inculcate external ethics into their internal framework at a faster pace (or something)?

"NiTi looping" happens because there's something going on in the external world that an INFJ can't get on board with in the first place. While INFJs do often try to force themselves to put their own objections/complaints on hold until they can effectively articulate why something is a bad idea (hoping some argument will slide into focus that will get others on board with their objections/complaints) - which is precisely the stuff "NiTi looping" is made of, 'bending' as a sort of placeholder while they wait for their objections to become clear enough to articulate - the way out of that definitely, definitely isn't more bending.

[And more re: op]

While I think one of the ways any kind of external influence can help with the "NiTi looping" is for someone who is capable of listening really well *and* who understands provides a medium for the INFJ to put their thoughts/impressions into language, so that they can finally let go of the information that's caught on 'repeat' in their head. But people who are capable of listening well and/or who understand are actually quite difficult to find, *and* I suspect there isn't a fussier bunch of people in this world than INFJs when it comes to needing both those qualities. Bouncing the looping ideas/impressions off someone whose reaction will only add to the information that's stuck bouncing around inside - instead of providing a neutral sounding board that helps get rid of that internal confusion - is the worst. It's seriously the worst. Especially when I was younger, I'd internalize the fault whenever this happened, thinking, "what's wrong with me, that this person's advice/help doesn't work for me?" At this point I think I see it more for what it is (no one's fault, just a really fussy operating system) and steer clear of/maintain emotional distance to people who systematically make 'looping' worse.

And sometimes even someone who is capable of listening really well can't 'get through' - because ultimately the problem is more about (as lexicon mentioned) getting to understand oneself better, cultivating an awareness of one's needs and cultivating a firm sense of boundaries.

Ni-Ti looping for me: I kind of ‘forget’ to use Fe, resulting in forgetting to maintain group harmony, fine-tune my outwards attitude, or consider other people, if that makes any sense. This mostly happens during group planning and other small group work, which is odd because Fe is supposed to be more prominent in groups. It’s not exactly retreating and using Ti as a placeholder, but rather letting the ideas and logic take the reins. With that said, I am sure it is a loop and not healthy Ni-Ti thinking because of the self-consciousness and other negative forms of Fe.

Also, the original question inquired how to sustain a healthy Ni-Ti cycle, not get rid of it.
 

Forever

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Why would you think staying completely introverted would make you healthy?

Introverted functions process information and if there’s no current/updated information via extroversion. It’s just not going to do well.

Period.

Comes in different flavors depending on the loop.

Extraverted loops go crazy without introversion that information keeps being wasted and thrown out and never checked. That’s outside of what you want to know but just in case you were curious
 

Forever

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If growth was easy. I don’t think this would have been a question
 

Yama

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The thread title is an oxymoron. Loops are inherently unhealthy.
 

Vivienne.Iris

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Why would you think staying completely introverted would make you healthy?

Introverted functions process information and if there’s no current/updated information via extroversion. It’s just not going to do well.

Period.

Comes in different flavors depending on the loop.

Extraverted loops go crazy without introversion that information keeps being wasted and thrown out and never checked. That’s outside of what you want to know but just in case you were curious

Isn’t it possible to update information without Fe? Perhaps through Se? I am pretty sure that I am able to update a interact with the outer world without Fe. Could you give me some examples of extarverting via Fe?
 

Vivienne.Iris

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The thread title is an oxymoron. Loops are inherently unhealthy.

This has a low probability rate; however, is it possible to healthily loop by using Fe for a certain amount of time at irrevelant areas (such as small talk with less prioritized people) than revert back to Ni-Ti when it comes to something you don’t want Fe to hijack? That way, Fe is still getting used, so it won’t go haywire.
 

Yama

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This has a low probability rate; however, is it possible to healthily loop by using Fe for a certain amount of time at irrevelant areas (such as small talk with less prioritized people) than revert back to Ni-Ti when it comes to something you don’t want Fe to hijack? That way, Fe is still getting used, so it won’t go haywire.

I mean, anything is possible, but it's not always what's best for you. If you're uncomfortable with Fe, find some kind of outlet for it to help improve it.
 

Forever

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Isn’t it possible to update information without Fe? Perhaps through Se? I am pretty sure that I am able to update a interact with the outer world without Fe. Could you give me some examples of extarverting via Fe?

Do you prefer Fe? Seems like a function you really want to avoid
 

Siúil a Rúin

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It seems like Ni-Ti could be a very peaceful state of mind - detached, objective, symbolic, analytical. I could see it becoming unrealistic in its conclusions without an extroverted grounding to place it in check.
 

Merced

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I'm pretty sure I'm actually a looping ISFP. I had to go waaay back and asses my behavior as a youngen.

- - - Updated - - -

"Asses," lol.

A looping ISFP would resemble an INTJ, not INFJ.

Also, while I definitely think there is value to looking at your past self when identifying functional development, past behavior doesn't hold as much weight as current behavior and health levels. (My personal conclusions with MBTI would argue that behavior in general holds little weight because of just how manu variables affect it, but I acknowledge my views are pretty extreme in that area.)
 

Peter Deadpan

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A looping ISFP would resemble an INTJ, not INFJ.

Also, while I definitely think there is value to looking at your past self when identifying functional development, past behavior doesn't hold as much weight as current behavior and health levels. (My personal conclusions with MBTI would argue that behavior in general holds little weight because of just how manu variables affect it, but I acknowledge my views are pretty extreme in that area.)

It's virtually impossible for me to filter out the effects of my lower health levels though, and it's been so long since I've been myself that it can be hard to look at things accurately.

I have had a feeling for awhile now that you want me to look at ISTP as a possibility. Is that accurate?
 

Peter Deadpan

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[MENTION=27952]Merced[/MENTION] - Also, could you explain what you think an Ni-Ti loop would look like? I like the way you explain things sometimes.
 

1487610420

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Merced

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It's virtually impossible for me to filter out the effects of my lower health levels though, and it's been so long since I've been myself that it can be hard to look at things accurately.

I'm not saying filter out your negative health levels, I'm saying use contemporary information to type yourself. People change and evolve constantly. You aren't the same person you were five minutes ago, let alone five years ago. Years passing since you've been "yourself" isn't a sign of being unhealthy for so long that your entire self perception for that duration was false, but that you just developed a new self and the rejection of that new self is a more telling sign of being unhealthy.

I have had a feeling for awhile now that you want me to look at ISTP as a possibility. Is that accurate?

No. My information about loops was for OP.
 

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[MENTION=27952]Merced[/MENTION] - Also, could you explain what you think an Ni-Ti loop would look like? I like the way you explain things sometimes.

A loop is the rejection of your auxiliary function in favor of running on a combination of your tertiary and dominant to force through where your auxiliary would otherwise glide past. In an NiTi loop, Ni is telling you that no one else can comprehend these things while Ti validates this. This is in part because Se is not being taken into consideration properly. The actual happenings of your surroundings don't interest the looping Ti because it doesn't support what Ti is trying to do. As a loop is a rejection of auxiliary, Fe in this equation is shushed. This suppression of Fe is very comparable to an unhealthy prioritization of Fi, but context within functioning usually clears that up. (This is why many IxTPs mistype as IxFPs and vice versa.)

The NiTi loop is an introverted loop, which means the focus is overtly introverted and subjective. You get out of an introverted loop by stepping outside of yourself, forcing yourself to be more concrete in your reasoning, attempting activities that involve outside thinking... basically indulge in things that work your extroverted functions.

Compare an NiTi loop to an SiTi loop, where instead of the dismissing like the NiTi would do, the SiTi is insisting. Also compare it to an NeTe loop, where instead of the argument being "Nothing you do will work and this is why" like NiTi would push, NeTe is arguing "Everything I do will work and this is why".
 
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