House of the Dragon

[Totenkindly]

E6 -- Emma D'arcy and Olivia Cooke are great. Hell of an opening too.

Lots of great things in the episode. I think my only disappointment is everything is rushing by so quickly; it makes it harder to track what is happening or establishing more emotional arcs so that tragic events feel more tragic. I feel like sometimes I'm reading a page of a book, then skipping a page or two, and then trying to figure out what happened and what I should care about.

Like the whole thing with Laena was really interesting, but I feel like I would have cared more if I had had more time / reason to care about the character.

the other issue with the skips is that it took me most of the episode (and maybe I'm just slow) to figure out who everyone is. I didn't feel like running subtitles but sometimes the accents make it hard for me to catch every word, and with (1) characters getting new cast and (2) new characters being added, it took me awhile to figure out who was related to who, who was who's kid, etc. This is actually pretty important to the episode since it's driving the plotlines. I did have it figured out 2/3 of the way through, but I was struggling for awhile.

I guess the other big question is how long Viserys is going to hang in there. I guess just long enough to make sure nothing is fixed before the nation is thrown into turmoil?

Harrenhal was a dark place in GoT. Apparently it was darker for many years before as well (at least, when it wasn't all brightened up).

 

[ceecee]

Emma D'arcy and Olivia Cooke - Fantastic. The time jumps might be a bit disorientating (since this one was a decade) but I think they did a great job making it feel cohesive.

Now, I think if you did an informal poll, I'm betting a whole lot of people would be 100% fine sleeping with Harwin Strong (who unfortunately seemed like a good father as well). So I don't fault Rhaenyra but it is a problem. I don't know if his death is going to matter much in this issue.

Larys Strong. That mfr is so evil, even if Alicent retains some humanity at this point, she won't the longer he remains in her ear. Harrenhal was like huge and terrible in GoT but maybe this fire was why. Maybe there was no one left to repair it. Stuff like this is a good way to explain, even if it's never really clarified.

Aegon. I have no words for that jerkoff (literally). He only gets worse from here. His brother also

Laena Velaryon self-immolation was not something I saw coming and I'll give Daemon credit -he didn't insist on making the choice for how her end would play out and looked genuinely shocked. I assume his daughters will just go to live in Driftmark with the grandparents.

Was it just the super dark lighting or is Viserys missing most of his left arm?

I've seen several comments about it almost feeling like a totally new show and I think that's accurate. Jam packed but good episode this week.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

The contrast between Daemon and Visnerys when faced with the exact same issue is stark. Visnerys killed his wife trying to get a boy, while Daemon does not insist on the C-section. His wife makes her choice there.

Yet Daemon is the alleged bad guy and Visnerys the nice king. No, Visnerys is a weak man and a weak king. The realm would have been better if he hadn't been king. Or if he had just named Daemon his heir.

Daemon was just a boy when his older brother became king. No one wanted to let him grow up, and treated him like he was a fool. Otto was scheming against Daemon from the beginning.

Oldtown is where the maesters study. Somewhere in GoT books it is mentioned that the College of Maesters was behind the end of magic and the end of dragons. I wonder if Otto was not just scheming to get power for his family but to further their goals.

Aegon is everything they claim Daemon is and was. Alicent is worse than Visnerys when it comes to children. Aegon is clearly so bad that he wouldn't make a good king. If she really wants to save her children, she should have gone along with the marriage proposal.

TEAM BLACK!

 

[Totenkindly]

I don't think it was the lighting, in terms of Viserys' affliction. If this keeps up, we'll need to start calling him Torso Boy.

The contrast between Daemon and Visnerys when faced with the exact same issue is stark. Visnerys killed his wife trying to get a boy, while Daemon does not insist on the C-section. His wife makes her choice there.

Despite his bad rap and leaning into the "second son / younger brother" trope, Daemon's not as bad as people (or his name) make him out to be at least so far. That bit from the opener or close to it resonates, about how second sons need to stick together because they always have to work hard for everything they get in life.

I saw a headline or two yesterday that they cut scenes with him helping his daughters grieve, again it would have shown a positive side of Daemon.

I'm still a little lost as to his actual long-term motivations. I feel like this whole season might just about setting up the board so that Season 2 starts knocking pieces over. (Although sure there has been a fair amount of piece knocking this season as well.)

Daemon was just a boy when his older brother became king. No one wanted to let him grow up, and treated him like he was a fool. Otto was scheming against Daemon from the beginning.

Yeah, it was always an uphill battle for him. Considering that, he's made pretty well for himself.

Aegon is everything they claim Daemon is and was. Alicent is worse than Visnerys when it comes to children. Aegon is clearly so bad that he wouldn't make a good king. If she really wants to save her children, she should have gone along with the marriage proposal.

It was definitely a character moment for Alicent -- what does she REALLY want?

Rhaenyra is stuck in a slow bleed with this empty marriage to Laenor, her being the "heir" named but treated as disposable, Criston gone from her main supporter and fling to a man who hates her, and what pleasure she had in life with Harwin Strong just creating a LOT more problems for her and her family in the long run. She basically is trying to cut through all the mess and do something to alleviate the entire conflict -- marrying their lines together, which would basically remove the threat from any current children (wouldn't it?) and thus bringing the line of descent back to both bloodlines again. This is pretty generous, aside from the whole "purity of the bloodlines" thing which seems to have become a looming issue for Alicent and Criston.

(Well, it is for Alicent; Criston seems to be even more personal about it -- Rhaenyra is the woman who ruined him, took away his integrity, and then refused to treat him like a serious prospect for a relationship and expected her to abandon her family, country, and throne. yes, she did tempt him. But he did also choose to bed her because he wanted to and was enamoured with her, and he would have been nothing if she had not made him part of the kingsguard to start with -- his entire fortune was because of her. It's an issue of pride for him, he was a mad scorned, and his inflexibility led him to blame her for his besmirchment instead of taking responsibility; now he obsesses over any of her indiscretions rather than taking ownership of his own. I mean, if you're gonna serve this bed of vipers, dude, accept you're going to get some muck on you as they fling it about.)

Rhaenyra does seem to have gotten a bum rap in the sense (again) she's a woman, so she doesn't get to play by male rules. Men in her position could screw around as much as they want, and if the products of such unions make a claim to title, they are just considered bastards unless decreed otherwise, and it's brushed aside. Unfortunately Rhaenyra's dalliances are harder for her to escape since she is birthing them herself, and then are in direct contention for the throne (although technically they are still partly of royal blood). She also did not have solid support behind her claim, just mainly the wishes of her father. In any case, it seems like this has stopped being about the protection of Alicent's offspring and more about moral sensibilities and which spawn "deserve" more to be in the line of descent. To be honest, all the kids kind of suck.

In view of that, Daemon's not having been part of that mess (and when he was, also being more upfront about his intentions) at times scans as a bit more classy.. well, aside from trying to hook up with his niece years before.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Daemon wants the throne. All his efforts towards Rhaenyra are efforts to get on that throne. When they were in the sex den, he had exactly where he wanted, he was too honorable to go forward with it. He loves his niece and marrying in the family would have been in line with tradition.

When the scandal broke, he went back to plan and offered to marry her. It would have secured Rhaenyra's throne without conflict. His brother has been poisoned against Daemon by Otto for 20 years or so by this point.

Daemon wasn't in Pentos merely for fun and to be away from politics. He has been studying everything he can find about dragons and dragonriders. He is still planning.

Otto coming back creates the war. I won't be surprised if he (or Larys) time the death of the king for their advantage.

 

[ceecee]

Daemon wants the throne. All his efforts towards Rhaenyra are efforts to get on that throne. When they were in the sex den, he had exactly where he wanted, he was too honorable to go forward with it. He loves his niece and marrying in the family would have been in line with tradition.

When the scandal broke, he went back to plan and offered to marry her. It would have secured Rhaenyra's throne without conflict. His brother has been poisoned against Daemon by Otto for 20 years or so by this point.

Daemon wasn't in Pentos merely for fun and to be away from politics. He has been studying everything he can find about dragons and dragonriders. He is still planning.

Otto coming back creates the war. I won't be surprised if he (or Larys) time the death of the king for their advantage.

I thought this too, especially with Vis drinking, I assume something to dull the pain as it's not wine or a cup, more like a flask. Easy enough to cause an "accident".

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Wow...... what an episode..... the stage is set...

 

[ceecee]

Let me just say that this was my favorite episode so far.

Laena funeral was all about how much shade and side eye could be cast.

Otto made me think of Tywin Lannister when dealing with his shitfaced grandson - that's also how he should have dealt with Joffery.

I love Eve Best as Rhaenys - I hope she is showcased more, especially now.

Considering how into fucking Daemon is, that was a shockingly gentle and sweet lovemaking sex scene. (But dark, it's a big complaint overall. I just watch in the dark, that helps) Contrasted with their wedding where they were bleeding all over each other. GoT incest - ew it's your aunt. HotD incest - Yes! Uncle/niece, who cares? We'll be returning to the ew as soon as they talk more about Aegon being betrothed to Helaena.

Aemond - a real asshole. Maybe more than Aegon, who is a drunk more than anything it seems. But the scene with Vhagar was wonderful. Of course the fighting with Baela, Rhanea and the Strong boys just sets the stage for what is to come.

Vis calling Alicent, Aemma was great but he has to be like - Gods take me now and get me away from these people.

The winner of Epi 7 is Laenor. Go live your best life sweetie.

 

[Totenkindly]

didn't look at the thread until I finished watching about 5 minutes ago.



...omfg. Best episode, like, by far. I was alternating between awe and yelling/swearing/cheering/gasping at the TV.

I am honestly amazed, that might be one of the best episodes of TV I've seen all year. I think I wish they had played the last reveal later, to give me time to ache over it, but there was very little to fault. The pacing was just the best, and it was like six prior episodes of backstory and laying down all the relationships finally came to a head in this one episode, at a funeral where all family from all trees is forced together into the same locale.

And every time I thought I'd reached the high point of the episode, the next scene ended up being even better and crazier.

I agree with everything you said ceecee, esp the bit about Tywin and Joffrey. I really don't like Otto, but he's not a fool either and he has his moments.

This was also the first bit with dragons that I really felt generated what it would be like in reality, the whole scene played out really well. That was just crazy terrifying, crazy exhilarating. And little princeling is a dick, but... that was such a ballsy move. I would have to say he earned whatever he won, in multiple ways.

The fight between the cousins actually felt like an actual fight between kids. Bravo.

Viserys also is so weak. This was his final chance to really put a fork in things (probably literally), he needed to do something very final and very definitive... and this was not it. The country is doomed. War is inevitable.

Daemon still gets many of the best lines (and I'm thinking the first ten minutes of the episode or so). He was also all over Ser Criston when things started to get nuts. It's like everyone with every allegiance and rivalry was dragged into that sequence in the throne room.

I also have to say that the sound editing was remarkable in the scene with Corlys and Rhaenys (as they are again discussing her not receiving the throne). The crackle of the fire, the haunting wind in the cold empty corridors, all playing as backdrop. They even filmed the darker scenes (Daemon and Rhaenyra, then the dragon sequence), which could have been disastrous, with the appropriate amount of lighting so that everything felt dark but you could still distinctly see everything that was going on.

It was a beautifully written and acted, technically proficient episode. I felt bad when the younger versions of Rhaenyra and Alicent left, but the current versions are just nailing it.

 

[Totenkindly]

So another decent episode with e8, just in a different vein from the last.

Could have been retitled "The Dying of the King" I suppose. FINALLY HE IS DEAD. Jeez.

Paddy was again superb, what a way to go out. It's agonizing watching Viserys finally step up to the plate, and I love how they force the viewers to wait with everyone in the hall as he makes his way forward. In this, he finally comes off as stronger: It's not necessarily weakness that was driving him, but his love for all the trees of his family. it's just that it is too little too late. he almost fixes things, but there isn't enough time left to convince the children and/or make sure there is no confusion. The final conversation between he and Alicent is tragic due to his poppy ramblings and mistaking who he was talking to, and dammit why don't they just give all their kids unique names for once?

Vaemond Valeryan at least goes out as he lived. One area the show has rejiggered to put more emphasis on the plight of the second sons. Mainly this is shown explicitly through Daemon, and now in Vaemond, and then Aemond (note the similarity in naming as well). He knows his claim is screwed when Viserys actually shows up to the court, so what's the point in holding his tongue further? Daemon of course eggs him on a bit and they both know where this is going. But I think Vaemond finally feels relieved to be able to make a definitive declaration about his feelings, even if it costs him his life.

Daemon is really fascinating. I cannot speak of the book version (and I am getting too that Book Rhaenyra has less scruples than TV Rhaenyra, they seem to be trying to soften her a bit to provide sympathy and also develop the connection between her and Alicent), but he seems unflustered and unsurprised about much at all, and manages to hold himself in a lot of restraint as an older canny noble, but when he acts it is very efficiently and purposefully. I am getting tired of saying how Matt Smith is just nailing this role, but... well, he is.

At the final dinner, I love how they have Rhaenyra (again, see how they soften her for TV) be the one to authentically try to mend the bridge, and Alicent cannot help but respond. At least on the show, you get that they actually still care about each other and don't necessarily WANT to be killing each children's and are in part getting territorial to protect their individual families. This was another episode where Alicent seems much more stuck in middle of many opposing forces, with a weak husband/king, a domineering father, and many people vying for her support. The best she can do is wield the power she has to try to protect her children. In many ways, both women are placed in positions of power while being at the mercy and being used by others who want power; at least on the show, there's the idea if that they were left to their own devices, they would run a fairer and more considerate court than all the blustery men who want to be in charge or feel that peace is impossible.

Aegon II is pretty awful, still -- he's a joke, even if in line for the throne -- but Aemond is the one to be frightened of. He and Daemon are cut from the same cloth, honestly. The episode quickly established him as a seasoned fighter (he wins the sparring match with Criston) but is very quiet and calculating even through court and much of the dinner. he's constantly sizing everyone up -- and it is VERY MUCH like what Daemon is doing. They are like reflections of each other. It's terrifying when he finally steps up to reassert the interfamily conflict and push the fight... and then it's really uncanny how Daemon steps in and by his presence stops it. I wouldn't say Aemond is afraid of him, but he is definitely wary (despite Daemon being 25 years older?) I love how they just size each other up, and Daemon's like, "yeah, I know what you're doing, but you can stop," and Aemond just evaluates it and then agrees tacitly. They are really really similar. I think the only thing annoying about Aemond is that he reminds me too much of this, which cracks me up:

I probably should also give a nod to Eve Best, as Rhaenys. She's underused but typically great, and got more play in this episode.

And now the Seven Sons cult is part of King's Landing. Sigh.

 

[ceecee]

Long Live the King.

Paddy Constantine has been incredible the entire season and this episode was Totally falling apart and at deaths door, but pulls it together just enough to sit on the Iron Throne and give his family a speech that is Vis' finest hour. He definitely gave King Baldwin in Kingdom of Heaven vibes with the mask.

Rhaenys -she made the right decisions backing Rhe and and betrothing the kids but now, she is still at Kings Landing, I'm not sure what is going to happen. But I'm pretty sure Corlys is still alive so all of that is a moot point for now

I was really getting tired of the whining coming from of Vaemond but this show knows what to do with annoying people - CUT THEIR FUCKING FACES IN HALF! by the one character who tends to say the least. But you have to admit, the scenes with Daemon and Vis were touching and it's hard to look at him as just an agent of chaos all the time.

Aegon and Aemond - it's really hard to pick one or the other as the Worst Person in Westeros (WPiW) but this week I think it has to be Aegon, he's the new Jofferey (and Aemond is heading for Ramsay Bolton territory).

I'm not going to fault Vis entirely for giving up the PWWP secret to Alicent, he was going out calling for Queen Aemma, out of is head on milk of the poppy. But how many people were in unison - Not that Aegon, Jon Snow Aegon, nooooo!!

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Daemon shows throughout this season he was unfairly minimized by his brother through influence of Otto. Otto(a second son) is the evil snake intentionally betraying the kingdom and his king to further his ambition for his family.

Paddy has been absolutely amazing.

Overall, the show has been great. It really has been able to avoid the horrible mistakes of the last couple seasons of GoT. I think that they were given a loose and admittedly unreliable chronicle to go by gave them the chance to do excellent work. It only maximizes the contrast to RoP.

Well done, HBO.

 

[Totenkindly]

'House of the Dragon' director confirms a major character is dead

Geeta Patel, 'House of the Dragon' episode 8 director, confirms the King Viserys (Paddy Considine) reveal.

ew.com

Ignore the title concept; the article is full of interesting stuff about the episode shoot. They really thought out a ton.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

'House of the Dragon' director confirms a major character is dead

Geeta Patel, 'House of the Dragon' episode 8 director, confirms the King Viserys (Paddy Considine) reveal.

ew.com

Ignore the title concept; the article is full of interesting stuff about the episode shoot. They really thought out a ton.

That was good. I would have liked to hear Daemon's speech, but it was unnecessary after the crown and the throne. Whatever animosity between the brothers was gone. At least that relationship was fully healed by the end of the episode.

They really tried hard to redeem Alicent this episode. Maybe she is only half evil tyrant rather than full evil tyrant, but just look at her sons. Their vileness reflects their mother.

 

[Totenkindly]

That was good. I would have liked to hear Daemon's speech, but it was unnecessary after the crown and the throne. Whatever animosity between the brothers was gone. At least that relationship was fully healed by the end of the episode.

They really tried hard to redeem Alicent this episode. Maybe she is only half evil tyrant rather than full evil tyrant, but just look at her sons. Their vileness reflects their mother.

I'm still partially out on that last bit, there's a lot we don't ever see -- although she's their mother, they get raised and influenced by a lot of people as noble brats and at a certain age even when she's trying to influence them to do the right things, they just blow her off. (Aegon is a slouch and a loser, a self-indulgent hedonist; and Aemond is scary.) She might be Queen, but she's got to behave in very prescribed ways, respect decorum, and she is regularly overruled by men. So she's been kind of a mix for me. Sometimes she seems rotten, sometimes she seems like a woman just barely hanging on and who got manipulated into this role and really doesn't like it -- but what else can she do at this point? She can't get out, so she might as well do her best... but this has also led into her scheming in lieu of the king who has been deposed and ill for so long.

I think she took a real downturn when she started crapping on Rhaenyra for sleeping around and it became personal, and then when she realized her own kids might be in danger if she supported Rhaenyra (and Rhaenyra became a quantity she could no longer predict because she didn't play by the rules), she started doing shady shit. Criston and she also have been in bed together too long and feeding off each other's negativity, so to speak. Slashing up Rhaenyra seems to have appalled her enough to drive her into fervent religion in an attempt to salve her soul, but has it really been?

It is very clear the kids got the "Rhae is a ho" belief from their mom, at least back around the knife fights in e7. So that definitely is on her, she's been breeding animosity for some years in the past and it has come home to roost regardless of what her desires might be now.

I'm still pretty much Team Black, at least in regards to the show. I get the impression Rhaenyra of the books is more cutthroat and shady as well, but the show has tried to present her more earnest and set up a viewer conflict on who is more at fault.


Here's a comment based on casting choice: Did anyone notice how Jace looks an awful lot like Criston, and not necessarily Harwin Strong (I think Luke looks more like Harwin)? Maybe still a bastard -- but not quite the bastard we thought he was! I know this is a departure from the books (as I think the actual seduction was added to the show, I think in the book it was more about who spurned whose advances?) It could be an additional wrinkle the show threw in.

 

[ceecee]

I'm still partially out on that last bit, there's a lot we don't ever see -- although she's their mother, they get raised and influenced by a lot of people as noble brats and at a certain age even when she's trying to influence them to do the right things, they just blow her off. (Aegon is a slouch and a loser, a self-indulgent hedonist; and Aemond is scary.) She might be Queen, but she's got to behave in very prescribed ways, respect decorum, and she is regularly overruled by men. So she's been kind of a mix for me. Sometimes she seems rotten, sometimes she seems like a woman just barely hanging on and who got manipulated into this role and really doesn't like it -- but what else can she do at this point? She can't get out, so she might as well do her best... but this has also led into her scheming in lieu of the king who has been deposed and ill for so long.

I think she took a real downturn when she started crapping on Rhaenyra for sleeping around and it became personal, and then when she realized her own kids might be in danger if she supported Rhaenyra (and Rhaenyra became a quantity she could no longer predict because she didn't play by the rules), she started doing shady shit. Criston and she also have been in bed together too long and feeding off each other's negativity, so to speak. Slashing up Rhaenyra seems to have appalled her enough to drive her into fervent religion in an attempt to salve her soul, but has it really been?

It is very clear the kids got the "Rhae is a ho" belief from their mom, at least back around the knife fights in e7. So that definitely is on her, she's been breeding animosity for some years in the past and it has come home to roost regardless of what her desires might be now.

I'm still pretty much Team Black, at least in regards to the show. I get the impression Rhaenyra of the books is more cutthroat and shady as well, but the show has tried to present her more earnest and set up a viewer conflict on who is more at fault.


Here's a comment based on casting choice: Did anyone notice how Jace looks an awful lot like Criston, and not necessarily Harwin Strong (I think Luke looks more like Harwin)? Maybe still a bastard -- but not quite the bastard we thought he was! I know this is a departure from the books (as I think the actual seduction was added to the show, I think in the book it was more about who spurned whose advances?) It could be an additional wrinkle the show threw in.

My feeling is that most of the people on the show are cutthroat and shady but I think because she is basically following her own heart and not the social constraints of the world she lives in (being a woman, none of this would matter if it was a man) - it makes her much relatable to viewers but Alicent has extremely kind interludes (servant girl raped by Aegon). And the fact that Alicent's children are evil and wretched (minus Helaena) and Rhaenyra's are the chivalrous young men that are better suited for the Iron Throne - makes it much easier to back Rhaenya. The religious zealotry also plays a role, considering we all know what happened in GoT (SHAME!).

I did notice that about Jace but I think they cast him just to mess with everyone.

 

[Totenkindly]

>... it makes her much relatable to viewers but Alicent has extremely kind interludes (servant girl raped by Aegon)

I again have to give big kudos to Olivia Cooke. That was such a difficult scene to navigate as an actress while maintaining such nuance, and she was remarkable. I am rather in awe of many of the performances.

 

[Totenkindly]

I am so happy that Eve Best (Rhaenys) is getting some really great lines and moments. She really should have been Queen, with her wisdom, strength, and autonomy.... like, what a wonderful ruler she might have been.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I am so happy that Eve Best (Rhaenys) is getting some really great lines and moments. She really should have been Queen, with her wisdom, strength, and autonomy.... like, what a wonderful ruler she might have been.

Yeah, really liked that. Wish she had said a certain word, though......

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah, really liked that. Wish she had said a certain word, though......

That would have greatly simplified matters.

Which is why those earlier scenes with Alicent occurred -- to justify such an act of mercy.