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God

G-Virus

Broud Balestinian
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"In a world without God everything is permitted."

Personally, I believe in God.

********

The_Grand_Inquisitor - One of my favorite parts of one of my favorite books.

********

Seek freedom and become captive of your desires, seek discipline and find your liberty.

- Dune (1965)
 

heart

heart on fire
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Why in a world without God would everything be permitted? Why does doing away with the concept of God negate human conscience?
 

G-Virus

Broud Balestinian
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The only thing that keeps me in check is the fear of an afterlife. I know I could break all the laws and get away with almost anything I want, but I also believe that some one is watching and I fear that one.

This is my logic and it may not apply to you.

(My simple method of avoiding a lengthy argument that goes nowhere and that I have had over 6.22 * 10^23 times - one whole mole of arguments).
 

heart

heart on fire
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I fear having to face myself and know what I've done wrong. I can run from many things in life but not myself.

I also fear not knowing/realizing what I've done, that my own blindess may hide the truth from me.

Conscience can only work as well as our ego defenses allow it to.

Conscience = God
Ego Defense = Devil/Lucifer
 

SolitaryWalker

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Most esteemed sir,

Consider my following argument against the thesis that God exists.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/philosophy-spirituality/8404-why-i-do-not-believe-god.html

Points to address.

Dostoesky's Grand Inquisitor was intended as a polemic against the religious corruption and beauracracy of the Roman Catholic Church. He meant to point out that they were following not the laws of God, but the laws of their religious teachers. Most prominently the Pope and the officials of the church.

You certainly can use this piece to motivate an argument in favor of the Divine Command Thesis. Or as Ivan Karamazov of Dostoevsky puts it, 'if God is dead, all things are permissible.'


The Divine Command Thesis is as follows; God is the origin of all morality. Hence, God's might makes right. Murder is wrong only because God said so, if he were to decree murder as a virtue, it would no longer be wrong.

Morality is a term that is synonymous with ethics. It is a study of desirable thoughts and actions. (See this paper for further inquiry into the nature of ethics, http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/philosophy-spirituality/12093-nature-ethics.html)

If you are a proponent of the Divine Command Thesis as Ivan Karamazov is, you would argue that whatever God desires is desirable.

The question to follow is why that is the case. One may argue that this is the case because God always knows what is good for us and God is benevolent. Therefore God can only desire what is desirable for us. This is an unacceptable explanation for an advocat of the Divine Command Thesis because this shows that what is morally good exists as a thing in itself. The fiat of God does not decide what is good. God is merely the communicator of morality or the message that shall place us on the path conducive to desirable results.

In conclusion, the Divine Command Thesis is not a morally justified action because it is completely irrelevant to what is desirable for mankind. In condensed form, to say that someone desires something has nothing at all to do with what is desirable for mankind.

The deplorable behavior of the Grand Inquisitor and his followers is a result of immorality, or people having failed to do things that conduce to their long term well being. This problem would be corrected only in the event of them being informed of what is ethically justified. Uncritically accepting the dictates from another character or embracing the Divine Command Thesis does not entail an achievement of such an objective.

Earlier I have stated that Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor story could be used to motivate an argument in favor of the Divine Command Thesis. The logical soundness of an argument resultant of this endeavor would be merely apparent and not genuine.

It may urged that the Roman Catholic Church engaged in wicked practices because they have disobeyed the dictates of God. Lets assume, for the sake of the argument that the Roman Catholic Church would become more obedient to the ways of God than it has been before. In this regard the Roman Catholic Church would be much more similar to the Protestant Church. In other words, they would obey a set of dictates with regard to how they ought to behave more closely. It it still highly likely that they would engage in evil practices or those that hurt mankind. That is because the commands in the Bible cannot provide the adequate ways to handle all situations we may encounter. There is a myriad of situations that we could encounter, and a very small quanity of prescriptions with regard to how such situations should be handled. Therefore we are unlikely to find a one to one match between the entities of the former group and the entities of the latter. This shows that the Divine Command Thesis cannot provide instructions with regard to how all situations are to be approached. Secondly, it is not at all a guarantee that the word of God offers desirable instructions with regard to situations it does address, as we have established that what is desired by one character in itself is irrelevant to what is desirable by mankind.

Hence the Divine Command Thesis is untenable for two reasons. The ethical instructions it offers often contain errors and such instructions do not address all issues that need to be addressed.

Your most humble and sincere admirer,

SW
 

INTJMom

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G-V,

That's the only thing that keeps a lot of people in check. Fear of payback. When I was a kid, that attitude was a lot more common, and frankly, the US was a much better place to live 40 years ago.

I don't think fear of offending God is a bad thing. It's not like it's a crippling fear. It just makes us think before we do something bad or hurtful, and sometimes it stops us. And sometimes it motivates us to do good. This world could do with a LOT more good in it.
 

G-Virus

Broud Balestinian
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Thank you Solitary walker, I am humbled by and appreciative of you taking the time to discuss this. I sincerely apologize for not being able to respond on the matter today or tomorrow as I am mentally drained from preparing for a few medical school interviews that will take place all of next week.

I will respond with something more than a thank you soon enough, but for now thank you and heart for pursuing and considering my random thoughts.

Out of curiousity, have you read the book in the original language? I have always been curious to see how flavor and meaning is lost in translation.

***********

INTJMom, thank you so much, you are always so sweet :hug:.
 
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