Global Clean-Wipe

[Passacaglia]

[MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] made a comment about deleting religion from human consciousness here, and it got me thinking. My initial interpretation of his comment was about merely deleting supernatural beliefs themselves, but I suspect that Hard meant deleting the capacity for religion as well. But my initial interpretation of his comment creates an interesting hypothetical:

What if all of our current supernatural beliefs were deleted all at once all across the globe, along with all spiritual and religious paraphernalia? All sacred texts, religious iconography, references to spirituality and religion in media, and whatever else are returned to the dust from whence they came. So nobody believes in anything supernatural, and there's nothing to suggest that anyone ever did.

But people are still the same; we still have the capacity to believe.

Do you think that spirituality and/or religion would spring forth from the human psyche anew? If so, what forms would it take? Would spirituality (non-organized religion) come out stronger after the clean-wipe, or would (organized) religion once again come to dominate metaphysics? Would we start all over again with ancient Summeria-like religions with sad, miserable afterlives? Or would modern life leap-frog us ahead in the evolution of religion? Having global media and rapid communication as we do, do you think that differing budding beliefs would create more or less conflict than they have in the past? (The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the current Middle East mess which has grown out of a history of religious conflict, etc..)

If you're a believer in an organized religion, you might believe that your god would simply select a new prophet to bring the Truth to humanity; if so, what kind of person do you think this prophet would be? Do you think the clean-wipe would be a complete negative, or do you think that not having to compete with other major religions would allow the Message to reach everyone in a way that it cannot in the world we live in?

 

[Qlip]

I tend to think of religion as just a subset of ideology. I think part of the answer is easily seen by seeing what kinds of ideologies exist along side of rationalism without the need of supernatural belief. Political ideologies alone fill up a large part of our belief capacity, Marxism, Capitalism, various types of Nationalism, Environmentalism, Anarchy, etc, etc. There might be much more room for cult like leaders in this scenario. I think in a lot of ways, more established and mostly benign belief systems shunt much of the population's energy in the need to understand the context of their lives, what they should be doing with themselves, and feel that they are doing right. I think this might redirect to actual authority figures in competition for minds, causing even greater culture wars lead by charismatic leaders.

Supernatural understandings of the world will eventually reassert themselves. After all, our understanding of life is subjective. Our existences are only partially conscious and a whole lot of very active unconscious processes. We will always have dreams, see ghosts, have premonitions, experience synchronicity, achieve moments of gnosis and transcendence. Physical or even informational models to explain these things will never eradicate the need for people to contextualize these things within the scope of their lives.

 

[Forever_Jung]

How far are you going to take this religious deletion? I mean, if religion is just a system of faith and worship, then capitalism is a religion too. But even if you just deleted the typical idea of a religion, it's a very difficult question to answer. These religions have shaped and informed basically all of human history, and have a huge impact on contemporary politics. I'm not sure how you can just delete it...like would everyone just feel really confused as if a huge chunk of information was missing from their brains? It would be immensely disorienting. So many modern situations wouldn't make sense all of a sudden. I don't know where to begin with figuring out how that would work.

But I guess you probably don't want to go down that road, so I'll answer the question as you intended it.

We're myth-making animals, so religions, ideologies, and all those other stories aren't going anywhere. If you somehow got rid of narratives that involved supernatural/spiritual terms, more would immediately spring forth. They might be superficially different, since they are being created in modern times, but I think even in absence of any other ancient religions to reference, you'd see a lot of the same images/stories rise up again. The collective unconscious and all that.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Yep getting rid of strains of thought one disagrees with sounds like a great idea.

How did this thought make it past the middle man between ones brain and ones fingers to post?

 

[Qlip]

Yep getting rid of strains of thought one disagrees with sounds like a great idea.

How did this thought make it past the middle man between ones brain and ones fingers to post?

It's a thought experiment, Disco, it's not a proposition.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

It's a thought experiment, Disco, it's not a proposition.

Its disgusting.

But I'll leave it there. Y'all have fun experimenting.

 

[Forever_Jung]

It's a thought experiment, Disco, it's not a proposition.

Yes, that's right, purely hypothetical *hastily conceals folder labelled "Operation: Murder God" in desk drawer*

 

[Qlip]

Its disgusting.

But I'll leave it there. Y'all have fun experimenting.

Although you are disgusted, I'd think the rational way to look at it as a believer is that it's irrelevant. Humans who have no capacity for belief are no longer in need of saving. And even so, such a thing would be impossible. Correct?

 

[Passacaglia]

But I guess you probably don't want to go down that road, so I'll answer the question as you intended it.

Thank you for taking my hypothetical at face value, and not getting bogged down in how's and why's. I realize that it begs all kinds of logistical questions and that 'religion' is an interpretable word, but I'm not interested in those nitty bitty bits at the moment.

 

[á´…eparted]

I suspect that Hard meant deleting the capacity for religion as well.

To be clear, this is indeed what I meant.

IBut my initial interpretation of his comment creates an interesting hypothetical:

What if all of our current supernatural beliefs were deleted all at once all across the globe, along with all spiritual and religious paraphernalia?

Well, if everyones memories associated didn't go with it, then utter chaos would happen. Enough that the vast majority of the population (if not all) would die.

Even if everyones memories went away with it, there would simply be far too many variables to determine what would happen. At least, with any level of reasonable confidence. As it stands, there is no way to simply remove it without having some sort of major problem that isn't associated with the religon removal itself. Ultimately, this leads me to believe that any setup would result in societial collapse in rather short order.

But people are still the same; we still have the capacity to believe.

Do you think that spirituality and/or religion would spring forth from the human psyche anew? If so, what forms would it take? Would spirituality (non-organized religion) come out stronger after the clean-wipe, or would (organized) religion once again come to dominate metaphysics? Would we start all over again with ancient Summeria-like religions with sad, miserable afterlives? Or would modern life leap-frog us ahead in the evolution of religion? Having global media and rapid communication as we do, do you think that differing budding beliefs would create more or less conflict than they have in the past? (The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the current Middle East mess which has grown out of a history of religious conflict, etc..)

Let's assume that somehow, it magically worked. We make it to this point and we still have capacity. It's very likely that a significant minority of the world would never develop any sort of religion, or religious-like idea/following within their local socieites. Particular in affluent and well educated countries. In less developed countries, it's likely it would only take a decade or two for religious and religious-like followings and teachings would appear. Nothing is likely to dominate beyond (at largest) small country level. Simply because the more developed world would not lend to it being conductive beyond their society.

If you're a believer in an organized religion, you might believe that your god would simply select a new prophet to bring the Truth to humanity; if so, what kind of person do you think this prophet would be? Do you think the clean-wipe would be a complete negative, or do you think that not having to compete with other major religions would allow the Message to reach everyone in a way that it cannot in the world we live in?

I think a clean wipe that is productive is impossible. I'd go insofar as to say nearly every single scenario would almost certainly bring about socieities demise. There are simply too many memories, attachments, and WAY too much history (WAY too much) tied to relligion. Most of modern philosophy and science ultimately started and stemmed back from religion. Because of this, our world would devolve significantly to something that in no way resembles now in a blink.

The only way it would work, is if humans started without the capacity for religion all together at the start of evolution. Without it, we'd never evolve. Working theory is religion evolved out of our wiring to be social, understand the world, and form tribes. We lose the capacity for religion, we lose the capacity to modernize.

Summarize: It's not possible to remove religion without some serious negative impact in an unrelated area.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I think that this totally depends on how exactly the religion was removed. (think about it)

 

[Passacaglia]

I think that this totally depends on how exactly the religion was removed. (think about it)

Let's assume that somehow, it magically worked.

Yes, this is the best way to think about it. It's like when someone starts a conversation with the "If you could have any super-power, which would it be?" question: Don't think too much about the how's and why's. Just go with it as a silly hypothetical.

 

[Passacaglia]

I tend to think of religion as just a subset of ideology. I think part of the answer is easily seen by seeing what kinds of ideologies exist along side of rationalism without the need of supernatural belief. Political ideologies alone fill up a large part of our belief capacity, Marxism, Capitalism, various types of Nationalism, Environmentalism, Anarchy, etc, etc. There might be much more room for cult like leaders in this scenario. I think in a lot of ways, more established and mostly benign belief systems shunt much of the population's energy in the need to understand the context of their lives, what they should be doing with themselves, and feel that they are doing right. I think this might redirect to actual authority figures in competition for minds, causing even greater culture wars lead by charismatic leaders.

I'm now imagining a post-apocalyptic world brought on by warring prophets and their fanatical followers...

 

[Passacaglia]

We're myth-making animals, so religions, ideologies, and all those other stories aren't going anywhere. If you somehow got rid of narratives that involved supernatural/spiritual terms, more would immediately spring forth. They might be superficially different, since they are being created in modern times, but I think even in absence of any other ancient religions to reference, you'd see a lot of the same images/stories rise up again. The collective unconscious and all that.

Do you think that the influence of our modern world would favor the growth of certain varieties of images and stories? For example, our modern understanding of the universe might inhibit the growth of 'just-so' stories that are patently absurd when taken literally. (Earth mothers and sky fathers, gods creating the heavens and earth in six days, etc..) Or maybe comic book heroes would go from being the modern fictional mythologies that we understand them as, to something more spiritual...or even religious! Any thoughts?

 

[Passacaglia]

Well, if everyones memories associated didn't go with it, then utter chaos would happen. Enough that the vast majority of the population (if not all) would die.

Well, I am envisioning a scenario where memories are lost or altered as part of the deletion: Formerly religious people remember hanging out with a bunch of acquaintances once a week, priests remember themselves as community leaders or social workers or charity managers (with physical reality altered to agree with their modified memories), and so on.

But now you've got me wondering how religion would be deleted from human consciousness without memories going with it -- I thought that your comment intended both -- and how that would cause mass death...?

Even if everyones memories went away with it, there would simply be far too many variables to determine what would happen. At least, with any level of reasonable confidence. As it stands, there is no way to simply remove it without having some sort of major problem that isn't associated with the religon removal itself. Ultimately, this leads me to believe that any setup would result in societial collapse in rather short order.

I never would have guessed that this would be your speculation, from your original comment. How do you think society would collapse?

Let's assume that somehow, it magically worked. We make it to this point and we still have capacity. It's very likely that a significant minority of the world would never develop any sort of religion, or religious-like idea/following within their local socieites. Particular in affluent and well educated countries. In less developed countries, it's likely it would only take a decade or two for religious and religious-like followings and teachings would appear. Nothing is likely to dominate beyond (at largest) small country level. Simply because the more developed world would not lend to it being conductive beyond their society.

Seems reasonable. Do you think that prophets and messiahs would appear to solidify various local beliefs into nation-sized religions, or do you think that supernatural beliefs would remain amorphous and more individualized?

The only way it would work, is if humans started without the capacity for religion all together at the start of evolution. Without it, we'd never evolve. Working theory is religion evolved out of our wiring to be social, understand the world, and form tribes. We lose the capacity for religion, we lose the capacity to modernize.

Oh, I've enjoyed reading about apophenia and our related human wiring! I love Michael Shermer's example of an early human hearing the rustle in the grass...

 

[Virtual ghost]

Yes, this is the best way to think about it. It's like when someone starts a conversation with the "If you could have any super-power, which would it be?" question: Don't think too much about the how's and why's. Just go with it as a silly hypothetical.

Are you sure about that ?
From what I know Hard and I are very Jish people and situations where we do not also think about implementation are rare.



However I find it interesting how you citizens of the free world that are clear majority on this site think about the topics such as this one in a very abstract "what if ... " way.
I am from Eastern Europe and here the religion actually got violated and it never trully recovered from that. Tanks had target practices on churches, buldozers rolled over religious objects, priests were slaughtered as cattle, having a Christmas tree would give you a few years in prison and the government decided to remove religion out of society, especially the minorities.

This is the map of memory for some of the priests that were murdered because of their faith.

This topic is not as abstract as some people here like to believe.

 

[Passacaglia]

This topic is not as abstract as some people here like to believe.

I'm sorry that this topic has hit so close to home for you. I find the clean-wipe hypothetical interesting, in part, because it's not about morality. It avoids the horrors of real world belief-suppression.

But if you'd like to talk about something within the realm of history or possibility, feel free.

 

[miss fortune]

so we're assuming that the sun has turned into one of those memory wipey things from men in black, only it's super selective in what it wiped out of our brains? (I mean, that's the easiest explanation in a non-violent manner that I can think of!)

it depends on how far we're going with what we're classifying as religious ideas really... I mean, some people pretty much worship the Constitution, or star wars... would those vanish? and how would we go about figuring out the whole chicken and egg principle of whether certain social beliefs came from religion or were incorporated into the religion as it sprung up?

I'm pretty sure that people would, in general, find something to place their belief into rather quickly... I mean, new religions spring up all of the time in a way... just look at cults! If there was a vacuum there waiting to be filled how long would it be before some cults became successful enough to become full blown religions?

or perhaps we would start worshiping money, which I've always suspected was kind of the case anyway...

for society in general, the voltaire quote probably applies "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."

otherwise, I'm going to quote the Hogfather for the second time tonight and question exactly how far the belief in the supernatural would be erased...

“All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable."

REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—"

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

"So we can believe the big ones?"

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

"They're not the same at all!"

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"

MY POINT EXACTLY.”

 

[Virtual ghost]

I'm sorry that this topic has hit so close to home for you. I find the clean-wipe hypothetical interesting, in part, because it's not about morality. It avoids the horrors of real world belief-suppression.

But if you'd like to talk about something within the realm of history or possibility, feel free.

This topic hit close to home in geographical sense but it didn't in emotional sense. Especially since I am really not a religious person and I am one of the most emotionally armoured people you have met lately. (life made me that way) However I wanted to show that this topic is not as nearly as abstract as people here like to believe and I thought that it would be wise to show people how implementations of these ideas actually look like.


However all of this is perhaps the number one reason for my skepticism towards religion, since religion tends to quckly fall when faced with stronger hostile brute force. People are mostly religious because their faith gives them the sense of correctness and invincibility but when you come across things I did that magic quckly goes away.

 

[Cellmold]

Well, if everyones memories associated didn't go with it, then utter chaos would happen. Enough that the vast majority of the population (if not all) would die.

Keeping the memories sounds like a much better idea then.

This is ultimately all a form of protection. Anthropomorphism tells us much of what we need to know about how human beings use belief for protection from self-revelation.

But self-revelation is also needed in order to progress as an individual. As to the original topic, given no memory of the subsequent wipe; I think slowly..at first...but gaining in momentum, there would be a rise in accounts of phenomenon and people would latch onto these, slowly gaining in strength.

As the popularity of particular standouts (lets say a lizard that walks upright like man and a cutting board with a face in it) people will start to look at these icons as representations of something grander than their material senses tell them exists. It's that longing for deeper meaning in their existence, that there is a purpose and reason for anything for protection against ennui and nihilism, that has to be given by something other than their own power of responsibility. Over time the original rituals would be perfected...or rather morphed, as hand-me-down information often is, and slowly, collective - cultural idealisms appear. The fact that there isn't a solid refutation beyond logic for things that cannot be tangibly understood means that the beliefs are enforced...becoming more entrenched as a protection against self-revelation. Clashes of idealisms have always happened, whether due to spiritual aspects or not, but the fanaticism that spiritualism brings would be a fresh face in the conflicts to come.

And so we find ourselves full circle, as nature intended.